So what happened in the end?, CGL, state of Dumpshock, etc. Options

[RHat]

There is a gaping chasm between "noticing something's going on" and "doing something about what's going on", especially in the world of Shadowrun. Really, who the hell had both the means and motivation to do anything about it?

[Tanegar]

There is a gaping chasm between "noticing something's going on" and "doing something about what's going on", especially in the world of Shadowrun. Really, who the hell had both the means and motivation to do anything about it?

Means, I dunno. Haven't read the book. Motivation? Try any neighboring power that doesn't want to deal with a refugee crisis.

[Sendaz]

Means, I dunno. Haven't read the book. Motivation? Try any neighboring power that doesn't want to deal with a refugee crisis.

Well if the dragons were eating a bit faster there would be no refugees for the neighbors to worry about.

Though the rumours of refugees being sent back from one undisclosed neighbouring country covered in a honey glaze seems in poor taste, or at least extra fattening.

Maybe hoping for 'To Fat To Fly?'

[Nath]

The actual depiction of the events were down to this:

The Clutch of Dragons, page 15
Underground reports from GeMiTo are saying that nearly three hundred metahumans a day are disappearing from the sprawl, allegedly to be used as food. If this number has remained consistent over the last six months, GeMiTo could actually have seen the loss of a staggering fifty-four thousand metahumans since Alamais arrived in the city. With so little corporate or government control in the region, it would seem that the metahumans that live in that part of Europe are left to fend for themselves.
In public, these deaths have not been reported in order to avoid an all-out panic. But in private, several AA corporations are sending representatives to Saeder-Krupp, pleading with, and in some cases demanding, that the widespread attacks on the sprawl be stopped.

The Clutch of Dragons, page 122
Lofwyr : "Yesterday along [sic] my offices in Essen received another hundred calls from local business leaders and government offcials calling for swi action to stop the violence that is being perpetrated on those metahuman citizens in GeMiTo."

The problem with Shadowrun is that it is written as a disjointed collection of posting on some underground information site plus some novels. There is no requirements from the writers to establish a realistic coverage of world events over time, nor even to pay attention to ongoing major world events (which may differ from major game events). The Clutch of Dragons is a prime example of this, dedicating more wordcount to VAT tax negotiations in Denver than it does for ten of thousands dead in northern Italy.

[binarywraith]

The actual depiction of the events were down to this:
The problem with Shadowrun is that it is written as a disjointed collection of posting on some underground information site plus some novels. There is no requirements from the writers to establish a realistic coverage of world events over time, nor even to pay attention to ongoing major world events (which may differ from major game events). The Clutch of Dragons is a prime example of this, dedicating more wordcount to VAT tax negotiations in Denver than it does for ten of thousands dead in northern Italy.

There's also the simple fact that with the freelancer exodus after CGL's pay fuckery, the new writers may literally not know the behind the scenes backstory at all. I'm pretty sure a few of them don't know the printed backstory, much less what was going on in the setting bible in actuality. A lot of the stuff in the last few years definitely seems to have been written in isolation, then just crammed into a book and published without anyone sanity checking to make sure the parts didn't contradict the whole.

Hell, they can't be bothered to open wikipedia to make sure that they're not writing about docks and water-based shipping trade a couple thousand feet above sea level. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Tanegar]

I'm assuming that GeMiTo is short for Genoa-Milan-Turin Metroplex. Those three cities, according to the most recent figures available to Wikipedia, have a combined population of 2,833,168. Let's be generous and assume that in order for them to merge into a single conurbation, that figure doubled or a little more; for simplicity's sake, we'll say six million.

That might sound like a lot of people, but it's significantly less than the current population of New York City. Point being, this is not a population large enough for 70,000 missing people over a six-month period to go unnoticed. It doesn't matter whether they're reported or not, you cannot hide an event like this.

To put this into perspective, roughly 2,300 Americans are reported missing every day. In a nation of 300 million people, that's roughly 0.0077 disappearances per 1000 people per day. 70,000 people in six months is 388 per day, or 1.94 disappearances per 1000 people per day in a population of six million. That is two hundred and fifty-two times the missing-persons rate in America right now.

There is absolutely no way that 70,000 people went missing in a six-month period in northern Italy, and no-one noticed. No. Way.

[kzt]

It should also be noted that most people reported missing get found fairly rapidly.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ncic/ncic...istics-for-2010

"As of December 31, 2010, NCIC contained 85,820 active missing person records. Juveniles under the age of 18 account for 38,505 (44.9 percent) of the records and 10,248 (11.9 percent) were for juveniles between the ages of 18 and 20. *

"During 2010, 692,944 missing person records were entered into NCIC, a decrease of 3.7 percent from the 719,558 records entered in 2009. Missing person records cleared or canceled during the same period totaled 703,316. Reasons for these removals include: a law enforcement agency located the subject; the individual returned home; or the record had to be removed by the entering agency due to a determination that the record was invalid."

So it's more like two thousand times the rate...

[RHat]

Still wondering why people think it wasn't noticed.

[apple]

s, dedicating more wordcount to VAT tax negotiations in Denver than it does for ten of thousands dead in northern Italy.

Or the 90 000 dead persons after the Renraku Arc shutdown was briefly mentioned in one of the SOTA Books without any further follow up. Just as in "Meh, wie have nuked the UCAS, no one cares, but we have new a page long rule system for swimming".

SYL

[Nath]

Still wondering why people think it wasn't noticed.

I guess it has to dowith the sentence "In public, these deaths have not been reported in order to avoid an all-out panic." and the fact that none of seven or so books released before The Clutch of Dragons and set in the six months before mention it, even on Jackpoint login page... except for The Twilight Horizon where an important file on an Horizon secret node reads the corporation believes these events are taking place.

Also, there has been a discussion on Shadowrun Forums where several people (including freelancers) held that the information must not have spread outside of northern Italy.

Or the 90 000 dead persons after the Renraku Arc shutdown was briefly mentioned in one of the SOTA Books without any further follow up. Just as in "Meh, wie have nuked the UCAS, no one cares, but we have new a page long rule system for swimming".

90,000 is the estimated total number of people trapped inside the arcology. A full 88-pages sourcebook, Renraku Arcology Shutdown, was dedicated to the event, taking place on the moment it started and describing the early media coverage and the corporations and government responses. There was later a full campaign book, Brainscan, which mentions "thousands" of survivors who are brought to hospitals and military refugee camps. Between that, the situation was mentioned or updated in Blood in the Boardroom, the 3rd edition rulebook, New Seattle, Man & Machine and Corporate Download. After that, the events were still referred to in Matrix, Target: Matrix, Threats 2, SOTA: 2064, Shadows of Asia and System Failure.

It would be difficult to require more coverage for a plot. Though we may not know how the public at large react to the news (Shadowrun has always been lacking on that), at least we get the impression that the information reached the Shadowland community.

[Tanegar]

Also, there has been a discussion on Shadowrun Forums where several people (including freelancers) held that the information must not have spread outside of northern Italy.

Equally ludicrous. People should be fleeing the area in the tens of thousands. Again, you cannot hide an event like this.

Think about this. One thousand people is not a large number. You almost certainly know at least that many, by sight if not by name. Imagine if, each day, two of those people vanished. You don't know what happened to them, where they went, or if they're alive or dead. They are simply gone. Every day, two people out of the thousand or so in your life disappear. How long would it take you to realize that something horrible is happening, and that you need to pick up stakes and GTFO? I'm guessing, not very long.

Three hundred and eighty-eight disappearances per day should provoke a mass exodus from the region. Roads should be clogged, every available vehicle commandeered, people fleeing like rats from a sinking ship. It does not matter how hard the news agencies work at ignoring it, news like this would be all over the Matrix and all over the world in a matter of days, if not hours.

[apple]

It would be difficult to require more coverage for a plot.

The dead count was mentioned in a sideline in SOTA and that was it.

SYL

[Ryu]

Equally ludicrous. People should be fleeing the area in the tens of thousands. Again, you cannot hide an event like this.

Think about this. One thousand people is not a large number. You almost certainly know at least that many, by sight if not by name. Imagine if, each day, two of those people vanished. You don't know what happened to them, where they went, or if they're alive or dead. They are simply gone. Every day, two people out of the thousand or so in your life disappear. How long would it take you to realize that something horrible is happening, and that you need to pick up stakes and GTFO? I'm guessing, not very long.

Three hundred and eighty-eight disappearances per day should provoke a mass exodus from the region. Roads should be clogged, every available vehicle commandeered, people fleeing like rats from a sinking ship. It does not matter how hard the news agencies work at ignoring it, news like this would be all over the Matrix and all over the world in a matter of days, if not hours.

Lower class people have the choice of staying around and vanishing, or fleeing and dying from starvation. Modern society is rapidly approaching a state were few people can process cattle or grain. People would however still be able to communicate. Dying from starvation while every friend knows is a special kind of horror.

As super-intelligent being I´d start harvesting whole areas. Since hiding 90k (short-term) missing people is impossible, the only way to get away with it is being allocated a part of society as prey by the rest of the population. "Yes, SIN-less vanishing by the thousands. What news?"
Yet we are talking dragons. A very small, very rich group of a different species preying on metahumanity. Greed is a stronger motivation than altruism, so the powers-that-be WILL act and play good guy while at it. Have major forces from government and supporting corps dislodge the cabal/kill the smaller dragons, and several greats finishing off Alamaise. Working solution I´d say. Trouble is that Alamaise should see it coming from the get-go, what with having experience with the elven courts.

[Nath]

The dead count was mentioned in a sideline in SOTA and that was it.

That wasn't a SOTA book, that was Sprawl Survival Guide, page 78 (which I forgot to list). The authority were able to count the dead once the situation and the plot were (almost) over. Renraku Arcology Shutdown narrates how mere days after it was known 90,000 were trapped inside the arcology (a number updated by SSG to 100,000), there was a reaction with Renraku and Army troops deploying and a security perimeter established in Seattle Downtown.

[binarywraith]

Lower class people have the choice of staying around and vanishing, or fleeing and dying from starvation. Modern society is rapidly approaching a state were few people can process cattle or grain. People would however still be able to communicate. Dying from starvation while every friend knows is a special kind of horror.

As super-intelligent being I´d start harvesting whole areas. Since hiding 90k (short-term) missing people is impossible, the only way to get away with it is being allocated a part of society as prey by the rest of the population. "Yes, SIN-less vanishing by the thousands. What news?"
Yet we are talking dragons. A very small, very rich group of a different species preying on metahumanity. Greed is a stronger motivation than altruism, so the powers-that-be WILL act and play good guy while at it. Have major forces from government and supporting corps dislodge the cabal/kill the smaller dragons, and several greats finishing off Alamaise. Working solution I´d say. Trouble is that Alamaise should see it coming from the get-go, what with having experience with the elven courts.

A very small, rich group who are very, very aware that they are not invincible.

If they start openly preying on metahumanity, metahumanity will start killing them wholesale. Not because the dragons are weak, but because humanity recognizes a point where the options are gone and it comes to survival. We are a species who will willingly, nay gleefully push the Big Red Button just to see what it does, if we have nothing to lose. Unless the Greats are willing to see how many THOR shots they can bounce, letting things get as bad as they did doesn't even make sense.

[Glyph]

Great dragons are an awful idea as implemented. I am fine with them being super-smart and extremely tough, but they should be plotting, planning, and wary of humanity, including a determined enough team of runners going after them - NOT these Thor-shot-no-selling, defeat-modern-armies-and-raze-modern-cities, gameworld-breaking, writer-wanking, Gary-Stu cheez-wiz covered monstrosities.

Also: in a world where shadowrunners have to be paranoid about cameras that are everywhere, where every single person could be liveblogging their daily life to the world, and where the populace is fearful and paranoid about all things awakened, and where sentient non-humans (shapeshifters, free spirits, etc.) have no citizenship or rights in many places, or even have bounties on their heads - in this world, dragons can kill and/or eat tens of thousands of people in an orgy of slaughter. And everyone collectively shrugs? I agree with binarywraith. That is nonsense.

[Not of this Worl...]

Great Dragons weren't always that bad, but they've reached the level of ridiculousness that the Immortal Elves had in late 2nd edition.

Anyways all of the plots and metaplots took a noticeable turn for the massively fragging worse under Fanpro. There is no raving for any of them the way people get Nostalgic about the Universal Brotherhood, Renraku Arcology, Harlequin, etcetera.

5th edition has a new slate, but they'll need to do a lot better on plot setting than 4th edition did to make me want to buy any setting books.

[Ryu]

Great dragons are an awful idea as implemented. I am fine with them being super-smart and extremely tough, but they should be plotting, planning, and wary of humanity, including a determined enough team of runners going after them - NOT these Thor-shot-no-selling, defeat-modern-armies-and-raze-modern-cities, gameworld-breaking, writer-wanking, Gary-Stu cheez-wiz covered monstrosities.

Work something about mythical vulnerability against yellow birds free marines into that and you have it.

[binarywraith]

Work something about mythical vulnerability against yellow birds free marines into that and you have it.

Their strength is that of ten men because their hearts are pure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[apple]

5th edition has a new slate, but they'll need to do a lot better on plot setting than 4th edition did to make me want to buy any setting books.

You do realize that the writers of Stormfront and Street legends are more or less the same authors who are working on SR5? So much hope for a better plot ...

SYL

[Nath]

Anyways all of the plots and metaplots took a noticeable turn for the massively fragging worse under Fanpro. There is no raving for any of them the way people get Nostalgic about the Universal Brotherhood, Renraku Arcology, Harlequin, etcetera.

Nostalgia is rarely a good guide. First, the very definition of it makes it for people who still hold one to replace it with a new for something that came out a decade later. Maybe in a few years you will see younger players nostalgic about Ghost Cartels or The Twilight Horizon.

And frankly, having recently played Harlequin with a group of players who started SR in 2006 and seeing their reaction, I'd say it may not deserve so much praise (though, lousy GM, that doesn't help).

[apple]

Maybe in a few years you will see younger players nostalgic about Ghost Cartels or The Twilight Horizon.

Not to forget the exceptional well written ARBEIT MACHT FREI chapter in BOGOTA!

SYL

[Sengir]

the only way to get away with it is being allocated a part of society as prey by the rest of the population. "Yes, SIN-less vanishing by the thousands. What news?"

There are certainly universes where allocating parts of the population as sacrifices is considered fully acceptable for the greater good, but SR is not one of them. When alien creatures (bugs, AIs, allegedly TMs...) start indiscriminately munching on people on a large scale (i.e. more than the typical organleggers), SR's dystopia is not "nobody cares" but "everybody starts a lynch mob". Which the authors seem to have been perfectly aware of, hence the incredible handwaved news blackout.

[Fatum]

That's the nature of war. Let's not pretend that all - or even most - wars actually achieve anything worth talking about.

High-intensity modern wars? Oh, they do. As technology develops, each army turns into an ever-more complex mechanism of inter-dependent components, and destroying just one spells doom for the entire arrangement. A good example would be loss of anti-air in a modern war.
We're not at WWI level, where you could dig in and fight back attackers as long as it takes; neither at WWII level where concentrating a force to punch through a defense line took weeks to months. Nowadays bringing overwhelming firepower to a particular part of the frontline, thus toppling it over, takes hours. And where we put our minds to it, nothing survives.
Look at the RL examples. The American invasions of third world nations, the Second Chechen War, the 888 War all had full-scale army combat end in weeks if not days, the winner largely reaching his strategic goals and only having to clear out stragglers later on.
With Shadowrun, the situation gets even more drastic. I mean, they have goddamn invincible flying tanks. LAVs. Large-scale magic. All of that means that a static frontline is something that just can't happen if at least one of the sides is pushing hard (and this is why Eurowar was such a subpar book).

Great dragons are an awful idea as implemented. I am fine with them being super-smart and extremely tough, but they should be plotting, planning, and wary of humanity, including a determined enough team of runners going after them - NOT these Thor-shot-no-selling, defeat-modern-armies-and-raze-modern-cities, gameworld-breaking, writer-wanking, Gary-Stu cheez-wiz covered monstrosities.

I have to agree here. I'm a huge fan of dragons in general and in Shadowrun in particular (duh), but what the late fourth edition did with them is an abomination. It is as if the writers haven't read anything on the subject. The dragons are supposedly superior to metahumans (by suprematist estimations) not because they're larger and can swallow a metahuman whole, but because they're hyperintelligent and play an extremely long game. That's why you shouldn't ever deal with a dragon, too. How can this possibly be combined with eating tens of thousands of metahumans just because or attacking own mercenaries for being metahumans is anyone's guess.

[binarywraith]

Hell, from Day 1 that was the whole established reason why Lofwyr chose the path he did. He realized all the way back in 2012, when he woke up, that humans could and would slaughter his kind wholesale if they tried to rampage, so he took a much safer path to power. It's 50 years past 2012, and technology has vastly improved, especially in the field of military hardware.

This is also why he is the single richest and most conventionally powerful individual (should he choose to exert his full corporate resources) on the planet by the 2050's. He, like Dunkelzahn and to a lesser extent Hestaby, solved the 'human problem' by simply getting the metahumans' loyalty, one way or another.