So what happened in the end?, CGL, state of Dumpshock, etc. Options

[Wounded Ronin]

I'm working from a list USAF published in one of their journals. There were also over 5000 helicopters shot down or otherwise lost in Vietnam vs 250 or so in Iraq and Afghanistan combined. Either the US got a lot better at this warfare thing or we are fighting people a lot less skilled at this whole warfare thing than the NVA/VC. I'd guess it's both, but I'd wager the majority is the opponents. The whole idea of projecting the future of warfare based on these wars seems kind of risky.

The NVA were, well, smart about it, though. I read loads of Vietnam War memoirs and learned how they used to set traps for helicopters. Like they would gather around a casevac and wait for the helicopter to try and land before opening up and trying to take it out. That's just one example.

At the same time those helos were susceptible to small arms fire, so you didn't even necessarily need specialized equipment to disable one or kill the pilot.

Probably there were a lot more emergency extractions done by helo back in those days compared to today. Also, I guess the enemy today just isn't nearly as smart or determined as the NVA was. I mean, today we have absolutely no equivalent to the Siege of Khe Sanh, in terms of a major military action accompanied by an international political play coming from a unified military leadership.

Even look at the Tet Offensive. The North Vietnamese government was basically willing to sacrifice the entire Viet Cong in order to shock Joe Sixpack in the US. I don't think we've seen anything with the psychological impact on the public from our current wars.

No equivalent to the Vietnamese tunnel networks either.

[Smirnov]

'Modern' and 'What happened 20 years ago between forces both fielding equipment that was already 30 years old and was significantly behind the tech curve from the day it went into service' isn't terribly relevant to honest to God modern artillery. The science of warfare has advanced a weee bit since the BM-21s went into service in the 1960's.

Not to say that conflicts in the 90s were anything like present-day wars, every military uses equipment 30 years behind tech curve. That's just how military industry works. Even now. US Army still uses M14. Those drones aren't cutting-edge tech.

[sk8bcn]

Great dragons are an awful idea as implemented. I am fine with them being super-smart and extremely tough, but they should be plotting, planning, and wary of humanity, including a determined enough team of runners going after them - NOT these Thor-shot-no-selling, defeat-modern-armies-and-raze-modern-cities, gameworld-breaking, writer-wanking, Gary-Stu cheez-wiz covered monstrosities.

Also: in a world where shadowrunners have to be paranoid about cameras that are everywhere, where every single person could be liveblogging their daily life to the world, and where the populace is fearful and paranoid about all things awakened, and where sentient non-humans (shapeshifters, free spirits, etc.) have no citizenship or rights in many places, or even have bounties on their heads - in this world, dragons can kill and/or eat tens of thousands of people in an orgy of slaughter. And everyone collectively shrugs? I agree with binarywraith. That is nonsense.

just +1.

How can plots be that stupid, honestly....

[sk8bcn]

Besides, the topic is derailing.

I'm reading 2nd ed books atm, and to be honest, there was a lot of poor products. I guess we mostly tend to remember the great ones.

What afraids me is that nobody seems to be able to give me ONE great plot book/campaign of the 4th ed.



Another point: if people says SR is less popular now, I've read that CLG sold it's full 15 000 5th ed first prints. When you sell quickly your first pass, I guess it's a sign of a game beeing popular, no?

[Smirnov]

Another point: if people says SR is less popular now, I've read that CLG sold it's full 15 000 5th ed first prints. When you sell quickly your first pass, I guess it's a sign of a game beeing popular, no?

15K is not that much. And how long did it took them to btw?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Besides, the topic is derailing.

I'm reading 2nd ed books atm, and to be honest, there was a lot of poor products. I guess we mostly tend to remember the great ones.

What afraids me is that nobody seems to be able to give me ONE great plot book/campaign of the 4th ed.

I didn't play till the end but the Seattle Missions were going well enough for me. If only my gaming group had not split up by Real Life™. Ghost Cartel was an interesting run too.
War, definitely was not a great book and that was around the time I stopped playing, maybe others can remind of good/great 4th edition plots.

[sk8bcn]

Don't know. I've read that in a french rpg-paper. It's likely that their 2nd printing will have erratas inside.

In France, a book is a huge success at 3000 books. So I guess you're financially more than ok with a 15000 book sellings.

[binarywraith]

Another point: if people says SR is less popular now, I've read that CLG sold it's full 15 000 5th ed first prints. When you sell quickly your first pass, I guess it's a sign of a game beeing popular, no?

Put this in perspective. The Shadowrun Returns kickstarter sold at least 38,276 copies in a single month, and has had much, much more in the way of sales on Steam since. 15k is barely a blip.

Hell, the My Little Pony comic issue last month sold just under 20k copies.

I feel really sorry for the folks who bought those first printing 5th ed hardcopies. It's a damn shame that they paid what, $60 for -that-.

[Sengir]

Don't confuse LAVs and actual tanks.
See the stats for the Stonewall in MilSpecTech for example, it's actually a flying tank with Speed 400, Accel 20/100, Body 36, and Armour 28.

The Stonewall IS a T-Bird...

[Fatum]

I'm working from a list USAF published in one of their journals. There were also over 5000 helicopters shot down or otherwise lost in Vietnam vs 250 or so in Iraq and Afghanistan combined. Either the US got a lot better at this warfare thing or we are fighting people a lot less skilled at this whole warfare thing than the NVA/VC. I'd guess it's both, but I'd wager the majority is the opponents. The whole idea of projecting the future of warfare based on these wars seems kind of risky.

Eh, you realize that the Vietnamese had been fighting more than ten years non-stop by the beginning of the Vietnam war, had SOTA weapons (including warplanes) and "military advisors" with experience fighting Germans in WWII and Americans in the Korean War? As opposed to a bunch of unshaved zealots with fifty year old AKs the US is fighting now? Which further goes to show how external support makes guerrillas relevant.

Besides, the topic is derailing.
I'm reading 2nd ed books atm, and to be honest, there was a lot of poor products. I guess we mostly tend to remember the great ones.
What afraids me is that nobody seems to be able to give me ONE great plot book/campaign of the 4th ed.

I am not a fan of premade adventures, so I prefer setting books. Emergence or Corporate Guide were rather decent ones.

[Fatum]

The Stonewall IS a T-Bird...



"The primary armored vehicle of the Confederate American States’ tank divisions, the Stonewall was considered the pinnacle of armored development through most of the 2050s and ‘60s".
"CAS/GD Stonewall Main Battle Tank".

[Sengir]

I'm somehow getting the impression that you wanted to present a counter-argument about the Stonewall's propulsion system, but all I'm seeing is its classification (which has been that way since Rigger Black Book). Yes, it's a flying rock and not just a flying brick.


BTW, another impression I'm getting is that repeating unsourced claims made by some military figures about their critics is kinda dumb if one just complained about unsourced claims by biased sources. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]



The classifications (Tank and T-Bird) are not mutually exclusive, Fatum... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Fatum]

This is senseless. A T-Bird is a class of a vehicle. You won't classify a copter as a tank, even if it's an armoured one.

[Sendaz]

*cough* Helitank *cough*

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

The Stonewall is a LAV Main Battle Tank. Always has been.

Also, as far as people reacting to deaths, you don't have to hide them. Just make them seem 'normal', part of everyday life. 70,000 people dead in Italy seems like a lot. But in real life the past five years the death rate in Italy has been well over half a million a year. 70k is a mere statistical blip in comparison. I am certain super intelligent dragons can figure out how to disguise deaths as due to mundane explainable causes.


-k

[Nath]

A Banshee has an operational range of ~350 km, same as a modern tank

The Banshee also has a minimal speed of 360 km/h. So it cannot operate for more than one hour, and as little as 15 minutes at top speed. It's either a 100-200 kilometers raid into enemy territory before returning home, or the 300 kilometers hop, followed by either a four hours full stop waiting for the tanker truck, or just one hour for a heavy-lift helicopter. Nothing impossible, but some forethought required.

Well now that history can judge 4th edition as a historical edition with all the others I don't think history will be too kind in general, especially on the plot side. [...] But if you think Ghost Cartels can compare to Universal Brotherhood or Renraku Arcology in popularity then I'd be curious to hear how.

My point was, people don't necessarily have fond memories of Harlequin or Universal Brotherhood because they were great as adventures. They are nostalgic because that was when they started Shadowrun and were still discovering the game. For any player who started SR in the last decade, Ghost Cartels may be that first epic campaign they'll remember in a few years. On the other hand, the gamemasters who mastered Harlequin when it first came out have been playing Shadowrun for more than two decades. By now, they're experimented enough to know what they want and how to do it, write their own adventures rather than relying on one published they'll probably find flawed upon reading.

It worth noting that you mention Renraku Arcology Shutdown, which wasn't an adventure, but a sourcebook. The actual campaign was Brainscan. I am under the impression that there are more people who (fondly) remember running the arcology, but never played Brainscan proper.

[apple]

Well, Brainscan left a lot to be desired.

SYL

[Wounded Ronin]

Eh, you realize that the Vietnamese had been fighting more than ten years non-stop by the beginning of the Vietnam war, had SOTA weapons (including warplanes) and "military advisors" with experience fighting Germans in WWII and Americans in the Korean War? As opposed to a bunch of unshaved zealots with fifty year old AKs the US is fighting now? Which further goes to show how external support makes guerrillas relevant.

Not to mention they blatantly had Chinese and Russian advisors popping in and fielded some equipment that was excellent for the time and place. Consider the AK 47 vs. the M16A1 jam-o-matic which originally shipped with incompatible ammunition, as well as their recoilless rifles.

[Wounded Ronin]

Not to say that conflicts in the 90s were anything like present-day wars, every military uses equipment 30 years behind tech curve. That's just how military industry works. Even now. US Army still uses M14. Those drones aren't cutting-edge tech.

Accurized refurbished M14s. I mean, it's more than a 50 year old weapon system. It's also a visual and physical symbol of postwar masculinity, stoicism and pain tolerance stemming from agrarian lifestyle, social cohesion, and courage of convictions. Consider that people can pay around $2K for a new M14.

I wish that instead of destroying old M14s, Garands, or what have you, they would give that stuff away to private citizens as surplus. That way we could all enjoy the beneficence of the federal government.

[binarywraith]

I wish that instead of destroying old M14s, Garands, or what have you, they would give that stuff away to private citizens as surplus. That way we could all enjoy the beneficence of the federal government.

They do, actually.

http://www.thecmp.org/

They haven't started getting M14's because they're still in service as designated marksman weapons, so there isn't a huge surplus stack of them lying around. But the Civilian Marksmanship Program has been selling surplus rifles for very, very reasonable prices to get them civilian hands for over a century now. They used to have a ton of M1 Carbines and M1903's, but those are mostly sold through now, as are most of the Garands.

Harder to get surplus rifles these days since the registry's closed and all of the main battle rifles the US has used for the last half century are classified as machine guns. :/

[Sengir]

70k is a mere statistical blip in comparison. I am certain super intelligent dragons can figure out how to disguise deaths as due to mundane explainable causes.

Maybe they could, although death statistics are a lot more sensitive than you think. But as it were, they turned a whole metroplex into their personal hunting grounds in broad daylight since Big Al doesn't give a shit about humans.


As for the Stonewall, here is what the old Rigger Black Book had to say on the matter: http://s22.postimg.org/xuveooolt/Clipboard02.jpg But seriously, just look at the artwork...
LAV is a class of vehicle based on their propulsion, MBT is a class based on combat role. Vehicles can be both, and seemingly without making serious compromises. Even stall speed is only an issue when leaving the standard no-in-ground flight profile, sayeth Rigger 3.

[Stahlseele]

stall speed is only interesting in the situation that you need to climb to maximum height in the minimum of time. if you are a ground fighter, operating more like an over armored helicopter than a fighter yet and never actually leave the airspace below 100m, then fuck stall speed, you'll never get there in the first place. hell, technically, once you hit stall-speed, all you do is engage the downward thrusters and hover up there like a helicopter would if he actually could get up to that height in the first place.

[Fatum]

I'm still not convinced - after all, a copter is a category based on propulsion, too, but you don't call Mi-24s tanks or IFVs - but let's not be pedantic, this is not the point. Point is, a SR army has invincible tanks that can goddamn fly, which makes blitzkrieg breakthroughs potentially catastrophic. Which again speaks a lot against static frontlines.

As for adventure books, I don't get your fascination with these. Running premade adventures is like buying Lego and only constructing what's drawn on the box. The thing is, Arcology Shutdown (and the whole Deus arc), Universal Brotherhood or Bug City were good setting elements that left a lot of room for your own adventure ideas. The Dragon Civil War, in my opinion, as it is presented in the books, is not.

[kzt]

They haven't started getting M14's because they're still in service as designated marksman weapons, so there isn't a huge surplus stack of them lying around.

Can't sell them. IIRC, the 1968 GCA made that illegal as they were designed as machine guns.