So what happened in the end?, CGL, state of Dumpshock, etc. Options

[binarywraith]

Why I'm not surprised if this is actually true? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Because it's a lovely and poetic solution to the problem of electronic signals espionage?

Much like your friendly local sammy getting 2060-era Wired Reflexes put in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Koekepan]

Because it's a lovely and poetic solution to the problem of electronic signals espionage?

Much like your friendly local sammy getting 2060-era Wired Reflexes put in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

There are, or certainly used to be, classifications which were never supposed to be put on computer in the USA as well. Never having worked in those environments, I could not confirm the truth of this.

[Fatum]

I think it's been proved in other threads that alchemy results in divide by zero errors with even basic, expected applications of the ability.

I don't feel that claiming it's a commonly known fact counts as a valid explanation.

The Fifth edition Matrix really is broken beyond repair - just look at ownership chains, for example, and tell me that a system that incentivizes never using the gear you bought (because unattended devices use their DR*2 to resist hacking) is somehow an improvement.

So, a ruling that can be fixed with a single-line correction is killing the Matrix for you?

The math doesn't work on the given host ratings (the IC will murder-rape you so hard at the high ratings, and there's really no way to catch up short of an entire squad of nothing but elite hackers - while that makes awesome cyberpunk, it makes for shitty TTRPG play if people wanna play something other than 'elite hacker.')

I have frankly not tried playing a hacker in 5th; so I'm taking your word for it. However, I fail to see how the need to be competent in your archetype is making the rulesystem any bad.

[apple]

What he could mean (just a guess): the entry level to do anything worthwhile in the matrix is becoming to high. You are either nothing or a crack elite matrix commando, nothing between. Considering the prices of decks it indeed seems that there are either no hackers or only elite hackers who wield hardware in the higher 5 to lwoer 6 digit numbers just to start hacking.

SYL

[Fatum]

Well, that was kind of the point of return to cyberdeck - making deckers a breed aside. Focused on decking and nothing else.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, that was kind of the point of return to cyberdeck - making deckers a breed aside. Focused on decking and nothing else.

With no entry level, though, it is fairly difficult to get Elite Hackers?
You can be a Street Sam or Face with Very Little investment in resources, and then improve from there. The entry level is obvious and easy to attain.
Sadly, you cannot really do that with a Hacker/Decker, since your Investment is ludicrous. There are no real "entry level" hackers.

[Fatum]

Not any less than starter sammies, or in the previous editions. I mean, yeah, they're likely hacking their local laundromats with a self-made deck, and can't really take on megacorps nodes, but an entry-level sam won't take on corp spec-ops, either.

[apple]

Ah, no, there are no selfmade decks (as quote by the devs during this part of the discussion (they were asked because in one of the examples a hacker clobs together five commlinks for a crude deck - which the devs immediately correct that this was just an example which is not possible via rules and not intended).

A streetsam, or in the most basic sense someone who shoot people or beat them to death, need an investment of some hundred ¥ (for a weapon, from a rusty katana to an low level assault rifle). Thats it. From there you can add armor, implants (cheap and expensive), more weapons, sensors, equipment etc until you have a 6 million ¥ cyberzombie.

For a decker? 50k or the local laundromat will not even talk to you. Low level megacorp nodes for a beginner round? I am not even sure if a 50k deck would be enough or if you really should start with the 100k/200k deck.

Low level scaling was indeed far better in SR4.

SYL

[Fatum]

Ah, no, there are no selfmade decks (as quote by the devs during this part of the discussion (they were asked because in one of the examples a hacker clobs together five commlinks for a crude deck - which the devs immediately correct that this was just an example which is not possible via rules and not intended).

That's some bs. Hell, self-made decks are canonically there in Storm Front.

[apple]

Yes, exactly and that was explicitly "corrected" by the devs as "its only fiction, it has nothing to do with how SR5 works". Otherwise, if 5 commlinks would make an deck no one would need to pay 50k+ ...

(Hey, I am just the messenger, don´t shoot me)

SYL

[Elfenlied]

Melee combat being vastly outperformed by ranged.

I always thought that was a feature, not a problem.

[Fatum]

Yes, me too; but apparently for a lot of people it was a bug, not a feature.

[CloisterCobra]

I think I see what knasser was getting at, it used to be that an edition war would be over twenty pages by now, dozens of people would be caught in impenetrable arguments about edge cases of the rules, appeals to authors and mods would be everywhere and there would be a sizable community of people posting to say how much they were enjoying watching.

Incidentally, some of us New Authors (since the big bust up) do lurk here occasionally.

[binarywraith]

It becomes a problem when you consider that your average Ork, Troll, Cybered up sammy, or physad is literally superhumanly strong. Having a troll with a combat axe hit less painfully than a .45 slug is downright silly, because there's more force behind the troll's swing.

Remember folks, physics is a bitch. Most bullets don't have all that much kinetic force behind them, because the whole 'equal and opposite reaction' bit of conservation of momentum means that the recoil would murder you if they did. They just exert their force over a very, very small area.

Gunplay outperforming melee by a bit isn't a terrible problem, but a vast gulf is.

[Fatum]

I think I see what knasser was getting at, it used to be that an edition war would be over twenty pages by now, dozens of people would be caught in impenetrable arguments about edge cases of the rules, appeals to authors and mods would be everywhere and there would be a sizable community of people posting to say how much they were enjoying watching.

Incidentally, some of us New Authors (since the big bust up) do lurk here occasionally.

Dumpshock used to have actual knowledgeable people around.

[Patrick Goodman]

Dumpshock used to have actual knowledgeable people around.

I will try not to take that personally.

[CloisterCobra]

Dumpshock used to have actual knowledgeable people around.

Whoops, that's my cue to go back to lurking.

[Koekepan]

It becomes a problem when you consider that your average Ork, Troll, Cybered up sammy, or physad is literally superhumanly strong. Having a troll with a combat axe hit less painfully than a .45 slug is downright silly, because there's more force behind the troll's swing.

I absolutely agree, with a couple of details added:

The bigger and tougher the shooter, the nastier the recoil the shooter can handle. There are also some tricks which can be added to the mix to allow for more power, such as porting, recoil compensation gadgets, and recoil pads or jackets.

On the other hand, you can put grip tape on the handle of your combat axe, wear work gloves and so on.

In the end, momentum is a generally better predictor of penetration than kinetic energy (although there are many details to that) and swung weapons tend to build up momentum in the swing. This is why hammering nails works better with a claw hammer than a rock.

Remember folks, physics is a bitch. Most bullets don't have all that much kinetic force behind them, because the whole 'equal and opposite reaction' bit of conservation of momentum means that the recoil would murder you if they did. They just exert their force over a very, very small area.

Gunplay outperforming melee by a bit isn't a terrible problem, but a vast gulf is.

Again, I totally agree, and I'd add that it may be an interesting exercise to try some thing in the realm of terminal ballistics similar to what can be seen on websites like Brassfetcher and The Box of Truth.

[binarywraith]

Yeah, leverage is, as one would expect, incredibly useful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Also, the above is why I've always wanted to see strength-based recoil compensation in SR. I have a hard time finding it plausible that the recoil off a 9mm light pistol is any sort of problem to someone who can crush steel with their cyberarms, after all.

[Nath]

Also, the above is why I've always wanted to see strength-based recoil compensation in SR. I have a hard time finding it plausible that the recoil off a 9mm light pistol is any sort of problem to someone who can crush steel with their cyberarms, after all.

You mean, like the recoil rules in 2nd edition Fields of Fire (1 point of RC for every two points of Strength, starting at 5), or 3rd edition Cannon Companion (1 point of RC for every 6 points of Strength, starting at 6), or 4th edition Arsenal (1 point of RC for every 4 points of Strength, starting at 6) ?

[Tanegar]

Gunplay outperforming melee by a bit isn't a terrible problem, but a vast gulf is.

I'm not at all convinced of this. Yes, the axe imparts more kinetic energy per strike... but you can also fire a gun a whole lot faster than you can swing an axe. If Heinrich Triggermensch can put two rounds in a guy in the time it takes Gunther Axemann to get in one good swing (two Simple Actions vs. one Complex), I'm OK with Heinrich's two bullets doing more cumulative damage.

[apple]

But it is not only about cumulative damage, if you compare 4k from a light pistole and 4S from the strongest man realistically alive. And that is not even counting in strength 14 cybertrolls who are literally way about any human charts.

SYL

[binarywraith]

You mean, like the recoil rules in 2nd edition Fields of Fire (1 point of RC for every two points of Strength, starting at 5), or 3rd edition Cannon Companion (1 point of RC for every 6 points of Strength, starting at 6), or 4th edition Arsenal (1 point of RC for every 4 points of Strength, starting at 6) ?

Yep! I've always liked those (FoF especially) and wanted them to be in the base rules.

[Elfenlied]

It becomes a problem when you consider that your average Ork, Troll, Cybered up sammy, or physad is literally superhumanly strong. Having a troll with a combat axe hit less painfully than a .45 slug is downright silly, because there's more force behind the troll's swing.

Remember folks, physics is a bitch. Most bullets don't have all that much kinetic force behind them, because the whole 'equal and opposite reaction' bit of conservation of momentum means that the recoil would murder you if they did. They just exert their force over a very, very small area.

Gunplay outperforming melee by a bit isn't a terrible problem, but a vast gulf is.

Damage isn't where melee gets outperformed, since it often deals more damage than non FA guns. It gets outperformed in terms of action economy (Simple vs Complex), dodge pools (in SR4) and investment, needing the most commonly dumpstatted attribute in a system where attributes are not equally important but equally expensive.

That, and the whole "need to get close" deal. That's why melee gets outperformed.

There are plenty of games out there where melee characters outperform gun users. Please don't make Shadowrun one of those.

[Critias]

I think I see what knasser was getting at, it used to be that an edition war would be over twenty pages by now, dozens of people would be caught in impenetrable arguments about edge cases of the rules, appeals to authors and mods would be everywhere and there would be a sizable community of people posting to say how much they were enjoying watching.

I'm kind of confused as to why people are acting like none of this happened with SR5.