Shadowrun 5th Ed. Preview #2 Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymaeus -- Personally, I like the Fixed TN system. There are just times when I feel like playing with the math to see how it all looks. My first few sessions of SR back in 94, I just listened as everyone else calculated my TN for me. Always rolling for 5/6 is substantially easier to explain to folks than "start at 4, -2 for smartlink, -1 for aiming, +6 for full auto, +4 for Ruthenium, -5 for Recoil Comp..."

Indeed it is (easier)... Which is why I far prefer it; not nearly as much of a learning curve for New players. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ravensmuse]

I'm fully aware that what I was asking for was completely a pipe dream! Just stating that I'm disappointed that my fantasies weren't acted upon. Surprisingly, SR is one of the more conservative traditional games out there.

Currently I'm working on converting SR over to the Cortex system, which uses larger die types over adding more dice of the same type. Which I'm sure is statistically weird somewhere, but I'm more a liberal arts sort of person than a statician (or, more accurately, I'm bored to tears by math). Cortex is clean and simple and useful for determining outcome and the gettig out of the way.

I don't have a dog in the race as I'll be picking up SR5e regardless of feelings to see how the changes work out.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm fully aware that what I was asking for was completely a pipe dream! Just stating that I'm disappointed that my fantasies weren't acted upon. Surprisingly, SR is one of the more conservative traditional games out there.

Currently I'm working on converting SR over to the Cortex system, which uses larger die types over adding more dice of the same type. Which I'm sure is statistically weird somewhere, but I'm more a liberal arts sort of person than a statician (or, more accurately, I'm bored to tears by math). Cortex is clean and simple and useful for determining outcome and the gettig out of the way.

I don't have a dog in the race as I'll be picking up SR5e regardless of feelings to see how the changes work out.

Try the Fate System... It works really really well, in my opinion, and you only need 4 dice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

The implementation of the fixed TN is still more calculationally intensive than the prior model. That is, for each action, you have to do more work with dice and numbers to determine success/failure. Static (mostly) dice pool versus floating TN is still easier to accomplish, especially when you get into the floating threshold actions and botched implementation of Extended Tests. There's a lot of mechanical drudgery for them to overcome for 5th edition if that's the way they're keeping it. Other systems aside, as far as I'm concerned if they keep the Extended Test mechanic of roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll I GOT IT, they get zero money from me.

Statistically speaking, the fixed TN gives you a prettier normal curve in some respects, but it's truncated by the floating threshold. There's zero probability of someone modified down to 2 dice succeeding at a Threshold 3 task. What this means is that any test has a hard line between possible success and automatic failure, and those numbers aren't pretty. On a Threshold 1 task, the minimum chance of success is 1/3 (33.33%). If you drop below that, you automatically fail. On a Threshold 2 task, there's a 1/9 (11.11%) minimum chance. On a Threshold 3 task, there's a 1/27 (3.7%) minimum chance. The problem here is there's a hard step up to that level from 0%. From the opposite end, that means that if you stack enough difficulty modifiers, you can make a task literally impossible. That is, if you want to take a diving potshot while you combat roll out of a moving Roadmaster at a man running behind crates on the far side of a warehouse while throwing orphaned children into the air as a distraction while he leaps into a spinning helicopter, you can either Not Do It, or you have At Least A One In Three Chance. The floating TN system had the benefit of stretching the realm of possibility all the way out to the realm of statistically insignificant. It couldn't do it smoothly, but it could do it.

I can't say I'm looking forward to the "limits" concept, because it seems very much like a haphazard patch to a system that can't be kept under control if characters are outside the middle range of skill. The problem in SR4 is that, because of the minimum-chance-of-success issue above, characters whose skill pools exceed a certain point essentially become immune to failure. As an answer to that problem, limits look like they'd work, but at the cost of adding an arbitrary mechanical feel to the game. It sounds like it's pushing the game to a far more complex extreme (interplay between attributes, skills, gear, limits, and edge sounds like it'll get complicated and very power/metagame-oriented) than it should.

[Aaron]

The implementation of the fixed TN is still more calculationally intensive than the prior model. That is, for each action, you have to do more work with dice and numbers to determine success/failure. Static (mostly) dice pool versus floating TN is still easier to accomplish, especially when you get into the floating threshold actions and botched implementation of Extended Tests. There's a lot of mechanical drudgery for them to overcome for 5th edition if that's the way they're keeping it. Other systems aside, as far as I'm concerned if they keep the Extended Test mechanic of roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll I GOT IT, they get zero money from me.

I completely agree. Extended Tests do have a place, but it's not as a common mechanic. I think they should only be used when you need to know how long something takes when the amount of time is important. So, in my opinion, Matrix searches aren't a good place for an Extended Test. Defusing a ticking bomb while ghouls are trying to break down the door, on the other hand, are a perfect time for an Extended Test. Acquiring black market gear ... could go either way for me; the time is important in that you may or may not get what you need in time for a run, but it's not always all that dramatic.

Statistically speaking, the fixed TN gives you a prettier normal curve in some respects, but it's truncated by the floating threshold. There's zero probability of someone modified down to 2 dice succeeding at a Threshold 3 task.

Very true. I can see a fix to this problem if static thresholds are reserved for only certain tasks, especially those that have consequences other than mere outright failure, where the hits you do get still do something even if you don't make the threshold. The easiest way to mitigate any static threshold problem is to triple the threshold and use it as an opposing dice pool, I think.

[ElFenrir]

As for the 'die pool bloat'...okay, I like number crunching, but I'll be honest...WHERE were people getting all of these extra combat skill dice from? +2 Smartlink, +1 Reflex Recorder, +1 Personalized Grip for a non Adept gunslinger. I'm not sure if I count 4 dice as 'a lot' when I look over at a Social Adept. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) If adept, add on the Improved Ability but even that was kinda on the expensive side(in other words, not free at all. Neither were the others-they were just kinda cheap.)

Btw-I'm not against Smartlinks or Laser Sights adding to the Limit instead. It's sensible from my PoV. I mean, it still makes them kinda 'required' for if you want to be a good shooter(let's face it, if you're playing a sniper who wants one shot and one down, you'll want as high of a Limit as you can muster) but it seems a LITTLE bit less 'automatic.' (I can't really see anyone who wants to shoot even part time not getting one, but it does give it a bit of a lesser important feel.)

...I'm actually wondering if stuff like Improved Ability and Reflex Recorders are still in. IMO, neither of those count as 'free dice'-the former is half a magic point a level for a combat skill, the latter actually does cost nuyen and Essence(even if it's not a lot), for just one die. (I'm guessing the consensus on 'free dice' were the type that were cheap and of no real cost to the body/magic?)

I will say though...I've noticed a little something in Shadowrun over the years. Back in the days with the variable target numbers, no one really blinked an eye if you got gear, ware, equipment, or whatnot that would lower the target number of an action. It was just...there. People did it. If you liked to shoot, you got a Smartlink. No biggie. But in 4e when the same actions were taken to get more dice it started ruffling feathers, even though the general idea was the same(using gear, ware, powers, or equipment to do your job better.) It may be that even though Lower TN=More Dice depending if it was 1-3(Former), or 4(the latter), but die pool bloat seemed to have a different effect mentally on people. Just something I kinda noticed, is all.

[Aaron]

There's always this thread about finding the biggest dice pool you can throw from SR4.

[Stahlseele]

Vision Enhancements, Recoil Compensation.
An Elf can get Skill 7 Agility 12 for a BASE of 19 dice.

NonCombat, i think the ultimate mundane climber gets up to 46 dice for climbing . .

[Nal0n]

Elf + Exceptional Attribute (AGI) + Surge II (Metagenetic Improvement (AGI)) + Genetic Optimization (AGI) + Muscle Toner 4 + Synthcardium (need 2 x Restricted Gear) = 10 (15) = 15 AGI

Automatics 6 + Specialisation (+2) + Smartlink (+2)

25 dice for shooting for a starting character ... just saying (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stahlseele]

i forgot about genetic optimization and metagenetic improvement, yes . . why the synthacardium? why not the suprathoid gland?

[MADness]

So, moderately unrelated, but some one posted an off handed comment about clips for guns. Is rare to purchase ammo and clips in properly conjoined ammounts (150 rounds and ten clips for my PredIV)? It always seemed like the right idea. And also the reason I rarely make shooters in Chummer.

[HeckfyEx]

Why do you even need 10 magazines? Are you going to war or something?

[KarmaInferno]

Why do you even need 10 magazines? Are you going to war or something?

Some folks just like being prepared.

I have, um, had more than 10 ammo magazines at once in real life. Though to be fair they were not all for the same weapon.

Because, well, Texas.




-k

[CanRay]

Why do you even need 10 magazines? Are you going to war or something?

Different ammo types. I just get excitable as to choice, like to have my options open. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sk8bcn]

Please no... Absolutely HATED variable TN's...

Besides, 8-Attribute (TN) woiuld really suck (yes, I know, quick and dirty estimate, though it works with the average Human with 3's in his attributes, giving a TN5), when all your Street Sam get successes on all their dice becasue they have 9's in their relevant attributes. It is a scaling nightmare....

I would like to point out that:
1-I have no problem with large dice pools
2-It was an answer to Ravensmuse, not me yelling "please please get us variable TN back"
3-Several systems works quite ok with such systems (or similar ones): e.g. COPS (french game) : roll Attribute d10. Success= those over skill value. Heavy Gear: roll skill d6. Add attribute modifier.

I mean it's feasible, but it would be a profund change. SR3 variable TN don't work statistically at all IMO. The game is playable, that's not the point, but it belongs to weak systems statwise.

[HeckfyEx]

I have, um, had more than 10 ammo magazines at once in real life. Though to be fair they were not all for the same weapon.

On your body or in storage?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would like to point out that:
1-I have no problem with large dice pools
2-It was an answer to Ravensmuse, not me yelling "please please get us variable TN back"
3-Several systems works quite ok with such systems (or similar ones): e.g. COPS (french game) : roll Attribute d10. Success= those over skill value. Heavy Gear: roll skill d6. Add attribute modifier.

I mean it's feasible, but it would be a profund change. SR3 variable TN don't work statistically at all IMO. The game is playable, that's not the point, but it belongs to weak systems statwise.

No worries, sk8bcn, I was more replying to other posters in my hatred rant of Variable TN's. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

On your body or in storage?

I carried 12 magazines (of 30 rounds each) while I was in the Gulf (among a plethora of other munitions). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
At home, 2 (of 10) is MORE than enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Nal0n]

i forgot about genetic optimization and metagenetic improvement, yes . . why the synthacardium? why not the suprathoid gland?

Did not have access to my Books and confused the two I guess (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
But You are right, it's the gland.
And the Build does not work because you'd need 40 bp positive qualities, so screw the gland and go with 24 dice.

For some more dice add some pimped out Cyber-Eyes/-Ears and some sensory "overloaded" Microskimmers, run a grade 2 to 3 TacNet with yourself and your drone buddies, should get you to 26 dice at least (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Then add some (Cyber or Miniature) Ultrasound and Radar Sensors and You are in see-all--shoot-all--kill-all--mode (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Kind of a one-trick-pony but with some points left to get at least some decent skills (with 500bp you can make this into a real playable character though).

[Nal0n]

When going to war there is no such thing as too much Ammo!

When I remember my time in Afghanistan that is so true. Had that one patrol which was planned to last 2 hours and became a 14 hours shoot-out when one of our vehicles got de-tracked and the Taliban pinned us down there in the middle of freakin' nowhere.

And yes, I was Very Happy that I had more than 2 or 3 "clips" on my person that day! Probably even saved a life.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

When going to war there is no such thing as too much Ammo!

When I remember my time in Afghanistan that is so true. Had that one patrol which was planned to last 2 hours and became a 14 hours shoot-out when one of our vehicles got de-tracked and the Taliban pinned us down there in the middle of freakin' nowhere.

And yes, I was Very Happy that I had more than 2 or 3 "clips" on my person that day! Probably even saved a life.

Indeed... Never enough ammunition, even when it is a pain to hump it around all day (us poor Marines tend to travel by our Black Cadillacs).

[CanRay]

When going to war there is no such thing as too much Ammo!

When I remember my time in Afghanistan that is so true. Had that one patrol which was planned to last 2 hours and became a 14 hours shoot-out when one of our vehicles got de-tracked and the Taliban pinned us down there in the middle of freakin' nowhere.

And yes, I was Very Happy that I had more than 2 or 3 "clips" on my person that day! Probably even saved a life.

Indeed... Never enough ammunition, even when it is a pain to hump it around all day (us poor Marines tend to travel by our Black Cadillacs).

Well, as my Sig in the other forum says: "Si vis pacem, para bellum."

[Nath]

Well, as my Sig in the other forum says: "Si vis pacem, para bellum."

Shortened as a "Sig 9mm."

[Draco18s]

- If a dragon cannot use a phone, I don't see why a shapeshifter should be genetically compatible with metahumanity.
(Raccoon Avatar, dumpshocker)

I have only just seen this quote and now I want the story.

[Stahlseele]

shtoinking a shifter is bestiality, but look at Kirk in ST TOS.
People will stick it into anything they can get their hands on.
Yes, even shifters and spirits appearantly . .