 FanPro D Newsletter Oct. 2006 |
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 Oct 11 2006, 11:53 PM
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#51
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234  |
It depends on what sort of society you are running and what they will tolerate. If your society is fairly non-corrupt and willing to kill without mercy or remorse you can control a large population with limited casualties. Ruthless terror keeps being used through history because it really tends to work well. If you machine gun protesters and make a point of shooting any news reporters you see you'll get a lot less street protests, and no pictures. If you say that "We will shoot everyone in a house if you have a gun" and then go carry out large scale searches and and execute everyone in any house where there is a gun you will tend to have less people willing to hide guns for "the resistance". Once you have demonstrated that you are ruthless and not playing games you use this to set up informer networks by allowing people to not have the awful things happen that should in exchange for information on other people. Or you bribe them. Either way, you set up the classic communist style informer network. This doesn't tend to work very well if you troops are willing to sell their guns to the "the resistance", which is one reason that the Russians are still fighting a war in Chechnya, but it has been effective. |
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Oct 12 2006, 12:56 AM
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#52
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
What are you blaming me for exactly? Also, as far as Los Angeles, Hong Kong, and Runner Havens are concerned, I was writing a section about HK, not Los Angeles. I'm just not going to waste word count trying to explain, from a Hong Kong point of view, the mistakes in developing California. |
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Oct 12 2006, 02:17 AM
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#53
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 3-September 05 Member No.: 7,675 |
Must be that damned E. coli. (Hmm, soyfood corps had new strains genetically engineered and sent a crop duster down 101 with it?) |
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Oct 12 2006, 05:23 AM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
That's what the world needs today - a clever leader! When are the next elections? Do we have time to grow one? Maybe by 2070 if we're lucky? |
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Oct 12 2006, 05:35 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
Ask Hitler. If he were still alive, he'd tell you that you can't exterminate a population fast enough without nuclear weapons. He tried on his eastern front, and they just kept coming. At the battle of Kiev, the Russians created a diversion larger than the D-Day invasion - 350,000 unarmed militia. Maybe that's why Hitler thought D-Day a diversion? He couldn't think straight with that Russian boot up his a$$. |
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Oct 12 2006, 08:07 AM
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#56
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
It's really pretty simple: The problem with California is that it has always had giant world shattering events thrown at in a ham-handed attempt to make Seattle mean something - without having accompanying world changes in the rest of the world. So for example, the BBB goes off on that inane tirade about how a giant earthquake came and sank everything - which would be fine if the rest of the world was experiencing huge tidal waves and city levelling aftershocks in Athens. But it's not, so it isn't some sort of "these are the times that try us" storytelling device, it's just stupid geology that makes people cry. But people had been semi-successfully pinning the blame on a bad map and saying "look guys, it's just an off-hand comment by Fastjack and a low-res map, there isn't actually a hole bigger than the Chicxulub crater caused by an earthquake that would have done a fair shot at destroying all life on earth, it's just a somewhat devastated city - like New Orleans." Ok fine. Many people were waiting for the money to get shown on that. But then what happens? You have to shoot your mouth off in Street Magic in a section that never got exposure to the rest of the authors and hand wave the dropping of the city with the sudden creation of giant magic holes. Well... fuck! While I easily grant that piece of hand-waving is fine and dandy at creating those holes in the first place, it does not require the act of a fault quake that is larger and more powerful than any fault quake that has ver happened since the evolution of the chloroplast, it presents other difficulties just as insurmountable. See, by announcing that the ground really did fall far enough that it is now under water, whatever the cause, you've just dropped a mountain so far that it is under water. Like a pile driver if you will, dropped over a kilometer in distance. Made of stone, and over 200 kilometers across. I'm going to conservatively estimate that what got dropped was only 100 meters thick on average and that it only fell an average of 200 meters. That's three trillion cubic meters of earth - seventeen trillion tonnes. And you "dropped it". About 200 meters. And the Earth wasn't destroyed. Not only was the Earth not destroyed, but you didn't even feel the need to explain how Hong Kong was avoiding a massive recession under the circumstances. In short, Zim, you made the fires worse. Or to put it another way: if the problem is that a section of the setting is completely fucked, the answer is not to put your dick into it. So that's what I'm blaming you for. I'm blaming you for nearly single handedly taking a very poorly conceived dev idea that caused nearly irreparable harm to the setting and then running it into the ground so that's about a million times worse and probably cannot be salvaged. -Frank |
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Oct 12 2006, 08:20 AM
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#57
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
But...but...magic!
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Oct 12 2006, 08:53 AM
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#58
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Frank, I suggest you take a deep breath and go back and read things again. As usual you are making one reading of the material and ignoring all others. Certain areas of the coastline and LA did sink during the twin earthquakes, in some cases as much as 1-2 feet, in a few others more, in most less. But another part of the vanished land went into the "Deep Lacuna" (and didn't come back). Nowhere did the land drop off 200m. For the record, LA relation with HK as you described was still born in the Sixth World. People tend to forget you had food riots in the good old USA in the early 21st century in Shadowrun. The balkanization of North America took care of the rest. Nor did LA survive VITAS unharmed, in fact it was one of the worst hit parts of the North America during VITAS 2, at which point the population of LA dropped by 20-25%. And that's all before the toxic levels, astral phenomena, the gang warfare, the water problems, the Tir invasion, the Aztlan invasion, the Japanese invasion, Aztlan and Tir militarization of borders, all working against repopulation... |
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Oct 12 2006, 09:21 AM
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#59
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
As an addendum to kzt's post, it also depends on the population you are attempting to control. If your target population is used to normal ruthless terror, you've got to come up with something creative to terrorise them. As it was, Stalin was already so ruthless, Hitler had nothing ruthless enough to scare the Russians into submission. So when you use ruthless terror, you got to really measure yourself against the tyrannical despots of the ages and try to top them. However, the good news is once you do so and reinforce that with appropriate indoctrination, you got yourself some Sardukkar/Fremen. Machine gunning people down is ruthless but it lacks true cruelty. People are instinctively afraid of fire, use flamethrowers and BBQ those protestors. And don't kill all the reporters, capture their families and mail them back to the reporters in letter sized bits if the broadcasts offends you. Don't shoot everyone in the house if they have a gun, nail them all to the house, preferably alive and then shoot anyone who comes tries to help them. |
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Oct 12 2006, 10:45 AM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
Ha! You realize the more you terrorize a populace the more you generate dissent? Reign of terror, geez sounds supervillianish. If you want to conquer someone you don't roll in, trash the place and start shooting people for little to no reason. Those people you just machinegunned have relatives you know. Good job, you took out one guy and added three to oppose you who probably wouldn't have done a damn thing otherwise. If you want to conquer a people you do it as quickly and quietly as possible. Then you make as little changes as you can. Hell you can leave the guy who was in charge before your little war in power. With such a small change to people's every day paradigms a population would hardly notice the regime change. Also you tend not to piss off the individuals who are wealthy and powerful in that country. Most could care less who's running the show as long as their slice of the pie is left the hell alone. Apparently nobody's heard of the word subtle. |
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Oct 12 2006, 11:06 AM
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#61
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
A couple folks need to take a deep breath and relax before this turns any warmer, I think.
It's just a game, and just some fiction kids. No reason to be hostile over it. Bull |
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Oct 12 2006, 12:13 PM
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#62
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Magic!
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Oct 12 2006, 12:51 PM
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#63
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I really hate to kill your mouth-frothing rampage, Frank (hah, actually, no I don't, who am I kidding?), but the ideas behind the Deep Lacuna were pitched and discussed among the freelancers before I was ever even working on Street Magic. I would agree that it's not the most elegant solution. But really, there isn't any way to approach that whole thing elegantly after the fact. I would have preferred that many things didn't go the way they did with SR's coverage of California, but c'est la vie. EDIT:
You are also assuming a few things. First, you're assuming that at least 100 meters thick worth of earth fell anywhere. You don't know that. Hell, I don't know that. I never said where the earth that vanished into the metaplanes ended and where the earth that fell began. Second, you make it sound like it was an instantaneously process. Which also isn't the case. It did not just "poof" and tons of earth fell into the void. Some of it slid, some of it shifted, some of it collapsed. But it didn't happen instantly. |
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Oct 12 2006, 04:09 PM
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#64
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
To quote our balanced friend Critias:
But, Magic! I have to say that, personally, I was filled with all kinds of glee when California slid off the planet. I have been joking with my friends for years that someday, that will happen. And being scientists/engineers/etc, and often terminally easy to provoke, they will then turn a bright shade of red, and yell at me to explain why that will NEVER happen. And then magic, and it is so. Happy times for me. I am a bit concerned for the health of Frank, after reading lines like "irreparable harm" - ya gotta breath, and realize that it's a game, written by people, that we play. It's never going to be internally consistent. It'll be degrees worse or better than other things, but there will never be a 100% perfect world and system. It's written by a lot of different people, edited by others, then published. Stuff happens. And you can't even please all the people all the time. The gun nuts are pissed at the inaccuracies in the firearms chapter. The anti-gun nuts are pissed that so much time is spent on muzzle velocities, when all they want to see is a bigger DV. The anti-mages are mad that so much magic is there. The magiphiles are pissed that magic isn't a bigger part of SR, because "otherwise it's just cyberpunk." Ya gotta enjoy what you can, and ignore what you can't. And realize that this great big ball of mud is far more fallible than we'd all like, then get over it. ;) Man, I'm philosophical this morning. I must not be reading enough work email.... |
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Oct 12 2006, 05:03 PM
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#65
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Of course there were. There actually were food riots in Mississippi, last year in the real world. I know some people who had to be evacuated from one and I persnally was performing inventory for the Red Cross volunteers who cleaned up after it. That's because the modern "on demand" economy, which has been so successful for Dell Computers, is also extremely fragile and vulnerable to interruption. That is, having things sit in backstock doesn't make money for anyone, and with the modern rapid shipping and purchase tracking you can buy pretty much what you can sell right off. Which is fine and dandy until something happens to a major port. Then, affected regions don't have fallback supplies and they don't get resupplied and then they don't get food. World food production is far and away larger than it needs to be to feed everyone, but starvation and food riots happen whenever distribution breaks down (either because of structural poverty or damaged infrastructure). So yeah there were food riots. And if you level Los Angeles, there will be more food riots all over the place. Not just because it's attached to the most productive agricultural land on the planet, but because it's the 5th largest port in the world. People all over the planet eat because there are containers guaranteed to be delivered through that port to a city near them.
It's a bad hand to be dealt, but you played it badly. Where a single sentence would have eased things, you said nothing. And where mere silence would have sufficed you spoke out in an inelegant fashion. And that, is what I'm blaming you for. Nor for getting us into this mess, it's been a long time coming and dependent upon a series of bad ideas that propagate through one another. But for taking this bad hand and raising when you should fold, and folding when you should raise. You gotta know when to walk away and know when to run. -Frank |
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Oct 12 2006, 05:18 PM
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#66
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
But part of what Demonseed is saying is that the CA that slid off in to the ocean *wasn't* the LA of today. It had been decimated by plagues, water failures, and a host of other issues. So using today's CA isn't even a good point of reference, because the world had already shifted to accomodate a far less productive CA.
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Oct 12 2006, 07:14 PM
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#67
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Different wording or different information may have appeased you, Frank. But honestly, appeasing you wasn't really on my mind at the time. Nor is it now. But thanks for the feedback. |
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Oct 12 2006, 08:03 PM
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#68
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
The customer is always right! All of them!
Bad Freelancer! ;) |
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Oct 12 2006, 08:10 PM
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#69
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Who was that even directed to? -Frank |
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Oct 12 2006, 09:50 PM
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#70
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Looking for a couple of pieces of claricifaction then
Did LA actually take a dive into the ocean, or is it more lake/bay/delta? If LA isn't shipping to HK, what port is their main supplier? I assume it isn't Seattle since RH says their ports are getting a lot less business lately |
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Oct 12 2006, 10:03 PM
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#71
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Well, since the geniuses at Fasa and Fanpro have cleverly eleminated EVERY OTHER port on the West Coast, I'd have to guess Anchorage, Alaska. This is, of course, totally insane, but hey, how does that differ from anything else that they have written? |
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Oct 12 2006, 10:23 PM
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#72
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
There's Oakland/S.F.
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Oct 12 2006, 10:24 PM
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#73
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Had the same idea, but I didn't dare to post it...
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Oct 12 2006, 10:29 PM
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#74
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
pour qui? Worried about your U.S. geography? Or just not want to get into the fringes of the firefight? ;)
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Oct 12 2006, 10:34 PM
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#75
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
LA didn't take a dive into the ocean. It has some areas that have collapsed and filled with water. More details will be in Corp Enclaves, but I don't know those details and I couldn't say even if I did! It's never been said that LA isn't shipping to HK. I'd wait until Corp Enclaves to determine things like that. Also, Seattle-HK shipping hasn't been hurt much. Where Seattle is hurting is being used as a Pacific-side gateway for continental shipping in North America. That's because Aztlan finished the Nicaragua Canal, which allows larger ships to cut through Aztlan to go to the east coast of North America themselves, cutting out Seattle as the middleman. |
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