 FanPro D Newsletter Oct. 2006 |
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 Oct 12 2006, 10:38 PM
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#76
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234  |
I seem to remember something bad happening there, involving a bunch of Japanese people. . . . |
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Oct 12 2006, 10:56 PM
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#77
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
That's a long way from the 1999 food riots in New York City that prompted the Seretech decision (admittedly were revisited and given a more reasonable explanation). But then again I wouldn't disregard the fact that by now New York is already in ruins due to an unprecedented earthquake and the East Coast economy is also in tatters. Not that most of that matters anyway since the US will have to bounce back from loosing 20-25% of its active population to two bouts of VITAS in the next couple of decades... The Sixth World is not our world. It hasn't been for at least 10 years. Facts, figures, and relationships are not the same. There are parallels. There are differences. Live with it. |
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Oct 13 2006, 06:22 AM
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#78
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Like DE said, the Nicaragua Canal drained a lot of Seattle's traffic, though the city is still North America's biggest port in the west coast. |
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Oct 13 2006, 08:49 AM
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#79
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
The latter. :D |
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Oct 13 2006, 05:29 PM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
I actually kind of like the idea. At least when I read it, it struck me as pretty cool. I sort of want to go diving and spelunking down there to see what's up. Dungeon crawling in shadowrun, who'd have thunk it? I'll put Frank in a headlock later today until he calms down. :D Course then he'll have some toxic eastern wyrm twist my head off like a tube of toothpaste. |
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Oct 13 2006, 05:52 PM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
My guesses... I suspect the coastal areas will be hit hard, hell they currently are already. It's amusing seeing them try and keep the beaches in one place. My money's on islands. I would guess large island around Griffith Park, Anaheim hills, Brea. The rest is almost entirely arbitrary as it's all mostly flat land. I figure Malibu will have some kind of mudslide, sinkholes, then catch fire before sinking beneath the waves ending the universe's running joke with that little slice of hell. What I will be especially interested in is Irvine. With the proximity to the coast having an airport and several skyscrapers go half underwater should provide some interesting locales. And of course UCI will be history (good riddance) leaving some nice goodies underwater. Probably a nice toxic zone around San Onofre nuclear generating station. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Onofre_Nu...erating_Station Look at that satellite pic especially. Right on the pacific as is. As for shipping you could always just shift north to I don't know say Monterey Bay, right Frank? :D Of course you wouldn't have to worry about that pesky marine sanctuary thing in the future. Get some cheap land... you could have a field day. You know I'd throw in the occasional megalodon. Great whites sometimes try and take a nibble on surfers these days. http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e030825a/e030825a.html |
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Oct 13 2006, 08:32 PM
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#82
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
damn it, I like Monterey. Damn otter shamans should chase off shipping corps.
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Oct 13 2006, 09:12 PM
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#83
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
You haven't been keeping up on your Cyberpunk. Ares owns that place so tight that when he named Santa Cruz after himself noone even protested. -Frank |
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Oct 13 2006, 09:41 PM
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#84
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I knew they had silicon valley, but Moneterey has a lot of nothing (unless you're a fan of garlic'Gilroy) between there and Santa Clara . I just didn't know they went down that far.Guess it makes sense though. Gilroy was one of the first places the Bugs were spotted. Makes sense for Ares to move in.
I grew up around that area so I'm always curios about what's going on there. I personally hate LA though, so I don't mind it dropping (even if the rationalizations are a bit wonky). Just a Tool song come true as far as I'm concerned. |
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Oct 13 2006, 10:24 PM
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#85
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
Eh whatever. I'm sure Wuxing and the pacific prosperity group could negotiate access to Monterey in return for giving Ares access to asian ports such as HK. I think it would be an especially good idea if the Japanas have SF shipping tied up. That way the PPG could give the ol finger to the Japanas. |
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Oct 13 2006, 11:24 PM
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#86
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Sorry if that was overly obscure. While Ares does own Santa Cruz (it owns things down to, but not including Carmel), Shadowrun has never said explicitly that Damien Knight changed the name of the place. But Santa Cruz is called "Knight City" in Cyberpunk 2020, so the fact that Damien Knight owns that area in Shadowrun is a long running CP reference in Shadowrun.
Me too. And the usual answer is "nothing". Many of the authors couldn't actually be bothered to look at a map to see whether Monterey is north or south of Big Sur, so some of the information is... uh... contradictory. Monterey has been a powerful port before, but the simple fact that San Francisco is a better harbor and Los Angeles is better than that has meant that commercial shipping into and out of Monterey has been on a steady decline since it was owned by Spain. And with Los Angeles wholly owned by the most powerful economy north of te Aztlan border (Pueblo Corporate Council), I really woouldn't hold my breath until it came to the forefront of international shipping once again.
Since they stopped being total cocks about taking all my water I don't have a problem with the place. I also don't have a problem with it getting sacked by interdimensional mongols, or hit with a meteor, or removed from the planet in any of a number of means. Distopian Science Fiction isn't about holding hands and singing songs, it's about bad things happening to good people for no reason. I do however, have a problem with bad things happening to a mega city that is the only major harbor of the second most powerful economy in North America and the headquarters of one of the ten largest corporations on the planet and having this have zero effect on the rest of the world. -Frank |
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Oct 13 2006, 11:54 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
I'm trying to figure out by what metric you're calling it second most powerful economy.
Is Austria more economically "powerful" than Germany? It's got a higher per capita GDP, and as a fraction of Germany's population it's pretty comparable to the size relationship between Pueblo and the UCAS and CAS. |
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Oct 14 2006, 01:26 AM
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#88
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
California is IIRC the fifth largest economy in the world Frank: Monterey used to be huge, but I think mostly it was for fishing, which has changed quite a lot. I can't imagine Carmel as anything but trees/golf/beach. I never read much actual cyberpunk, although I've ebeen meaning to change that, so I missed your reference. Just got the Secrets of Power Trilogy though, so I doubt I'll be getting "new" books for a while. I've been wondering what's going on with MCT/Raku controlling S.F., and all that would be going on with that like Draconis mentioned. I can say ok, L.A.'s gone, and honestly, not care much about the reason, because I jsut don't care for the city. But I do want to know how everything changed economically, where everything ships and out of , that sort of thing. Hell Frank, you're a frelancer now ain't ya? Feel like getting your hands (really) dirty and trying to work something out? You seem to have an understanding of the area and what the fall out should be like.
I was thinking an orbital drop bear bombardment might be good. I hear yuppies are tasty. |
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Oct 14 2006, 04:46 AM
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#89
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 3-September 05 Member No.: 7,675 |
Wasn't Gilroy where the Universal Brotherhood got their start? ISTR Gilroy getting namechecked in the big holy-crap-what-are-they handout, anyways. The Invae love garlic, maybe? |
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Oct 14 2006, 09:34 AM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Last time I checked CP2020's "Seattle" (so to speak), that 5-million-people founded-in-1995 metroplex in the Free State of Northern California, was called Night City, not Knight City - as its founder went by the last name Night... 8) |
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Oct 14 2006, 10:24 AM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
Obviously L.A. is better but hadn't we determined it's been sacked by interdimensional Mongols or whatever? The shipping infrastructure isn't there any more. I mean besides the political crazyness if the coasts are history and the land has been flooded where the hell are you going to offload? Besides I don't think it's a shining example of civilization at the moment, would I want my stuff going there? Wars aren't free either, probably increased tariffs and fees are being imposed. blah blah you get the idea. |
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Oct 14 2006, 10:27 AM
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#92
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
*sigh* |
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Oct 14 2006, 05:40 PM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Which tells us nothing about where it is in 2070 following partion and invasion, separation from its biggest markets by semi-hostile nations, multiple natural disasters, a break down in internal state authority and law and order, etc. Argentina was a top ten economy a hundred years or so ago, too. |
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Oct 14 2006, 07:18 PM
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#94
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I don't think the U.B. started there, I think they cropped in in Seattle first and branched out. IIRC, there was a big ifght between rival Ant spirit hives between Gilroy and the neighboring town. Really they should have just gotten together at the garlic fest and had some garlic flovered ice cream (sadly, both of the latter are real). SD: That's my point really. If one of the world's biggest economies collapsed over the last 50 years, where'd all the money go. 3rd edition canon would point to Seattle I guess, but RH says that Seattle's going through a decline (recession, whatever). So who's moving up? Who's benefitting? Oregon gonna try opening up more in the spirit of democracy? I don't recall the Oregon coast having too many major ports (Portland?) |
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Oct 14 2006, 07:53 PM
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#95
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I'm pretty definite that this is not the case. With the UB's heavy initial inspirations coming rom Scientology, it is unsurprising that this religion also started in California. A nod and a wink to the fact that L. Ron Hubbard started Scientology to settle a $500 bet - in California.
Major potential ports north of the Aztlan border are: Los Angeles Monterey San Francisco Portland Seattle Vancouver The Nicaragua Cannal is fine and all, and I'm sure it takes a substantial amount of traffic from Antwerp to Hong Kong (though why the hell wouldn't they just go through the Arctic Circle now that global warming and the TPA shaman can keep oceanic traffic safe and fast year round?) but to say that it takes even the brunt of North American shipping is laughable. First of all, the West Coast doesn't even benefit. CFS, PCC, TT, Seattle, SSC, and Athabaskan Council all already have direct access to the Pacific. They get literally nothing from shipping East/West through that canal. Now let's consider the nations that don't have such a port: The CAS is not going to be willing or able to ship through Aztlan, so that canal doesn't exist as far as they are concerned - they still need to ship it through the PCC or around the horn. The Sioux have to ship goods overland through another country to get them to where they could hit the water and go through that canal zone. And um... those countries they could get through actually won't let them ship to Aztlan and will give them a Pacific port (through the PCC or Salish). So they don't use it either. The Algonkian-Manitou Council and Quebec already have access to the Northwest Passage operated by the TPA, so the Canal Zone doesn't do anything for them. No. The only country in Norh America that can make use of the Canal Zone to get goods into the Pacific Ocean is the UCAS. And the UCAS owns Seattle! Aztlan's ownership of the Nicaragua Canal is good only for moving European, Carribean, and African goods into the Pacific. Every country in North America has very good reasons for not using that canal system to send goods in that direction. So yes, shipping out of the West Coast is still a big deal. It has to be. And that means that we're in the part of the cartoon where the dog whips out a register, punches in some numbers, turns to the audience and says "It just doesn't add up!" -Frank |
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Oct 14 2006, 07:57 PM
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#96
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Been a while since I read through the UB book, but where was that little compund that they had where they kept the doctor that came up with the original idea for the UB in the first place? In the NAN somewhere wasn't it? other topic: So, if they're not going to LA (because it broke) , or Seattle (because Runner Havens says it's port buss is declining), is there any words/thoughts on where everything is shipping through? Vancouver seems a bit too far north, so S.F. seems most likely to me since Saito is gone. This post has been edited by fistandantilus3.0: Oct 14 2006, 08:09 PM |
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Oct 14 2006, 07:59 PM
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#97
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Um, I figured that out about page 13 of SR1 a few years ago.. . . :D |
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Oct 14 2006, 08:56 PM
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#98
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
On the whole ports thing. Frank has some halfway good points. The CAS would certainly prefer not to rely on an Aztlan controlled canal, but they're not going to refuse to use it. Aztlan would want both their transit fees and a huge stick they can beat the CAS with short of war if they get pissed off. Yes, the CAS will want to hedge and keep trade open through PCC railroads, since they're on good terms with the PCC. The UCAS faces the opposite problems - the can't trust the Sioux to let train borne goods from the West coast through, so they're going to want to buddy up to Aztlan and ensure their trade through the canal isn't at risk.
(And all of this is with respect to very recent events. The present size of CA port trade would be determined by the neutral policy of the now destroyed Panama Canal. Shipping through that, while still subject to Aztlan blockade, would at least have definitely been an act of war that Aztlan would only have done in extreme circumstances. Even if CAS/Asia canal trade has fallen off in the last five years of SR history, that still leaves a few decades of devastation to the CA port trade before that.) But it's too easy to overemphasize either of these points. It would hardly be hard for Aztlan to bomb and shut down any PCC railroad links with the CAS, after all. If everything goes to hell, the UCAS/CAS would just have to shift to more European goods and ship anything they absolutely needed from Asia the long way around the globe until the war was over. Bottom line - the new borders and geopolitcal situation make CA to the east coast trade both more expensive and more risky than today. There will be less of it in favor of straight to the east coast shipping, suborbitals, and just making do with less trade because transaction costs and risks have gone up. That's consistent with the west coast ports being less important than today. It also gives you some interesting ideas for highish level government sponsored shadowruns concerning UCAS/CAS trade agreements and tensions with the PCC and Sioux. |
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Oct 14 2006, 09:04 PM
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#99
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
That's what I was thinking. Some good material for gov. spook games and some more good politics to work with. Nothing like a little conflict between neighboring goverments to spice things up. |
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Oct 14 2006, 09:05 PM
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#100
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Slithery, that's like saying that the difficulty in moving goods overland between the Canton Confederation and the United Netherlands reduces the importance of Europort.
When overland travel becomes more difficult, ports do not become less valuable. -Frank |
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