 Alternate Matrix Rules, Everyone is doing it |
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 Nov 6 2007, 04:19 PM
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#76
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869  |
I finished reading everything including the programs and technomancer stuff. I love the overall theme of people being crushed by oceans of data. I bet med school helps a lot to generate that feeling :D . Your technomancer rules really make technomancers playable and give them a lot of unique flavor. I can't wait to play test these rules (using the datajack-only brainhacking tweak), it puts the cyberpunk back into Shadowrun. :cyber:
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Nov 6 2007, 04:41 PM
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#77
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
That's how I see it too (although in the interest of full disclosure, I should point out I'm pretty new to SR4 and don't know a hell of a lot about hackers, having never played one). I'm playing a samurai in my current group. If my group was on a run and got attacked by hackers, and our hacker couldn't protect us from them, our only real option would be to shut off all our comlinks, or anything we had with a node. If we don't have our comlinks we can't communicate, which means unless we're in sight of each other we don't know what the other people in the group are doing. We lose the bird's eye view of the surveillance drone, we can't talk to one another, and that empties out a big part of our options box. That to me is the downside to being isolated from a PAN. The hackers can't fry us directly, but we're pretty much flying blind against enemies that have cameras and surveillance drones and sentry guns, who can effectively turn the environment (or at least, all technology in the environment) against us. Everybody in the group has a little technology. To use a magic metaphor, it'd be like every person in the group is astrally perceiving, but the majority of them can't project. If we get attacked by spirits that own the astral, our only option would be to stop perceiving so the spirits had to manifest, and then deal with them in the physical world. Manifesting in hacker terms would be interacting through a drone or similar system or actually walking over and shooting at us. |
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Nov 6 2007, 05:21 PM
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#78
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Actually, what I don't like about it (besides what I already mentioned) is that for me hackers interact with tech. In somes cases they may toy a bit with "brainhacking" through personafix or skillwire hacking or any other trick like that but this is as far as it goes.
With these rules, they are technomages (and I'm not just talking about the use of the same rules as for mages). It's a choice, but I don't really like it. As for using magic rules for programs, I think it's great for TM (along with complex forms that aren't the same as the programs) but I don't like it for hackers. I'm not saying that it's not good, I'm just saying I don't like it. (Yes, I do have my own "Alternate Matrix Rules" (actually not so "alternate").) |
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Nov 6 2007, 05:52 PM
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#79
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Well done Frank, thank you.
If you go through and do a revising, some more clarity on ranges and b&d effects would be great, I read through, and kind of get it, but a glossary of new terms would be great. Whats closer connection or hand shake range? how does LOS fit into the connection ranges? are certain connection ranges limited by being in LOS? Whats funny is that I was just wondering what ever happened about frank's matrix rules earlier this week. |
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Nov 6 2007, 06:14 PM
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#80
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Maybe I haven't got this far in my second read, but where are things like program loads or costs? RAW had programs divided into hacking and common use, but Frank has these setup in "spheres" similar to magic.
I guess I would like to know what RAW are still effective and which ones are just replaced by Frank's work. I'm still reading through a second time, but if I were to sit down with a player right now in chargen, I am having a hard time deciding how they would go through purchasing programs, program loads, upgrading, etc. |
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Nov 6 2007, 06:26 PM
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#81
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Target Group: Members Posts: 87 Joined: 11-September 07 From: Saeder-Krupp Rhine-Ruhr Regional HQ Member No.: 13,215 |
I'm still on the fence regarding he brain hacking. I concur that it ought to be possible and I see its foundational nature for Frank's (thoroughly consistent) alternative Matrix system.
I'm not so sure I would allow it all hackers. It is good to know that its conception is as a hacker-equivalent to the ubiquitous pornomancer adepts (or mages for that matter; Black Magic with the Dragon or Adversary mentor anyone?), but currently I'm wondering if it wouldn't make more sense to treat remote brain hacking as a route open only to Technomancers -- they seem to possess both the intuitive understanding of how to act on either side of a man-machine interface (essentially being one themselves) as well as the sort of quasi-magic ability that would make such feats more palatable. This would maintain the vulnerability of an orphan brain as a core aspect while while boosting TMs and capping hackers (who still one-up TMs in cybercombat, being at one remove to Matrix damage). |
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Nov 6 2007, 06:42 PM
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#82
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...makes sense in a way to me too. Agreed that TM's need some kind of an edge on Matrix Specialists.
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Nov 6 2007, 06:46 PM
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#83
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
In essence yes. The purpose is not merely to create a list of options and suggested oppositions that make for exciting player-centric game play. The idea here is to create a Nash Equilibrium which in turn generates exciting player-centric gameplay. See if you can eliminate the threat of hackers just by not spending thousands of :nuyen: to upgrade your brain to accept wireless signals and simply communicate via radios and telephones, then the logical thing to do is to do that. Similarly if you can surround yourself with a dead magic zone by simply not hiring any mages, you'd logically expect most secure facilities to do that as well. It's not enough for the game to tell you that people have wireless devices set up as camera networks, the game has to show you why they don't just go closed circuit like secure facilties do right now. For the game to have versimilitude, the systems people have in place have to make logical sense. A Firewall of 1 has to be more protection than not having a Firewall. If a Rating 1 Ward made you more vulnerale to Magical attack, how many people would use Wards at all? And that's the reason for Brain Hacking. A Firewall of zero is worse than a Firewall of 1. That is the single most major departure from the Basic Book description. In the BBB, no Firewall is better than a Firewall of 10, and that means that Nash Equilibrium is that you cannot hack anything at all. Hell, even drones are going to be operated with an automatic refusal of Matrix input and accept simple commands from one-time pads. In this system, a Firewall of 1 is better than no Firewall. And that means that the Nash Equilibrium is that people get the most all-encompassing networks with the best Firewalls they can afford - and that's where we want to be. Optimal behavior by the targets of your Shadowruns should nonetheless involve you hacking things. ---
Is there a demand for me to put together an equipment list which emphasizes the things characters want and need in this system? -Frank |
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Nov 6 2007, 07:04 PM
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#84
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Frank, yeah, I think an equipment list would be helpful. I'm over halfway through my re-read and so far, I don't have any major complaints. Its obviously different than RAW, but I currently run the matrix different than RAW, so that is not a big deal.
I am up for doing some playtesting in my own campaign to see how this fares in practice. The first step in doing that though, is converting my player's current matrix gear to this system. I'm not too concerned about cost, but I'm sure at chargen, that will be a big deal. At this point, I really don't have a problem with the "brain hacking" concept. Its no more dangerous than someone shooting you or a mage mind-raping you... |
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Nov 6 2007, 07:13 PM
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#85
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
See, that's where the problem is. That's not a means to eliminate the threat of hackers. Not by a longshot. All it does is help protect you against direct Matrix attacks, that's all. Hackers have access to pretty much everything around you. Security cameras and drones, your bank accounts, credit history, birth/death certificates, SINs, criminal records, and news feeds just to name a few right off the top of my head. And at the same time they can completely shut down your communications (yes, even radio and telephone) either directly by hacking into the devices or services, or indirectly by making you shut all your electronics down. Hackers are hardly helpless against a Matrix-shunning character. Well, decent or better ones anyway. Only two-dimensional, dim-witted, one-trick-pony ("Derr, I only bought Blackhammer 'cause that's the only utility I'll ever need!") hackers who have no idea what they're doing will be at a loss. |
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Nov 6 2007, 07:34 PM
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#86
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Comments to Frank:
I've noticed that some programs have effects based on their rating and others don't. For example, Crash does damage equal to its rating + net hits. Looking at Who Is program, it doesn't seem to matter if it was a rating 1 or rating 6. You've used terms like combat rounds, combat turns, rounds, IPs, etc. I'm not always sure if you are talking about a "pass" or a "combat round", as I'm not sure how you are interchanging them. I'm having trouble understanding LOS under Type descriptions. You say that in order to have LOS your device has to draw a clear line where the target is physically present at. So, for Black Hammer, that makes sense. I can't Black Hammer someone that is four blocks away if my device doesn't have a clear path. But something like Reveal Contents, where information from datastores is copied out, what does LOS to my device mean there? I guess I'd like more description on what you mean by LOS. Maybe I just can't find it, but under Backtrack and Who Is programs, you refer to Matrix Stealth checks or tests, but I can't find anything about Matrix Stealth. There are a few sections (e.g. Decrypt, Encrypt and Nanopaste Trodes) that seem to have some game mechanic effects, but you do not go into any tests or "rules" on them. You kinda keep it at a high level, but don't give anything that translates in-game to a roll or test. |
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Nov 6 2007, 07:59 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 385 Joined: 20-August 07 Member No.: 12,766 |
The brain hacking is pretty silly, but beyond that, I think it's much better then current 4th edition Matrix rules. You may want to re-codify it into a less-narrative version for quick reference, but I'd say it's pretty good regardless.
Oh, and I love the idea of technomancers speaking directly to technology, wireless connection or not. Very spooky and fun. |
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Nov 6 2007, 08:03 PM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
Dr. Funk hits it dead on the head. Honestly, I love most of the rule changes you make. The only thing that really bothers me is that every hacker has the ability to brain hack. Now if it required the purchase of a quality to do so, or a special set of programs, it wouldn't be an issue. With mages, they have to buy the mind control spells. It's not simply in their repertoire. If you're trying to mimic the magic system, there need to be about 40 more programs/sprites that are far more specific than the ones you have. That way when a hacker or technomancer decides he wants to be a brain hacker at start-up, he has to purchase it at a cost to his other abilities. I also think that perhaps limiting brain hacking of orphan brains to technomancers would help cut down on the number of people out there just grabbing individual brains off the street.
The issue for me is the same as astral projection. Every time a hacker or technomancer goes full VR, I have to pull off into another room and deal with that whil the other players sit around waiting. Sure, there's a lot they can do from AR, but given the advantages of VR, it's never made sense for them not to drop their meat body off and go bounding through the wireless that way.
So when I say hackers do need more to do, I mean simultaneously and without leaving the room. And what this really means is that the hackers in games I run don't know the rules well enough and I don't prep enough to be able to say, "well, there's turrets here, PANs here, security feeds here, drones here, and blah blah blah" for hackers to do. Really, the brain hacking rules seem to be as much a way to give GMs less prep as a way to give hackers more to do. |
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Nov 6 2007, 08:15 PM
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#89
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I didn't see anything relating to nodes. I'm trying to conceptualize how a hacker would break into a foreign system. There is a way to Find Mind, but nowhere do I see a way to scan for active nodes (or hidden, for that matter).
The closest I can find is either the Backdoor or Jedi Trick exploit programs, which both seem to be pretty easy to do. Though, I still don't see a way to actually target a foreign system or find one... After finishing my re-read, I think there is a lot of good stuff in here. The concepts are very solid. I think there are a few gaps that are not addressed (as I have pointed out in my posts), but I think once those are closed, we'll be in good shape. I don't think its complete though, at least as a replacement, just yet. You either need to identify what of the RAW works with this and what gets fully replaced and then I think it will be complete and playable! Oh, I wouldn't mind a few examples as well. Just of some basic matrix actions, whether that be a quick hack to a foreign system or some sample matrix combat, just to see how the programs work. One more thing...IC. Do they use programs like a hacker? You mention they can attack and trace and whatnot, but I don't see any stats or what they do against a hacker. You have it abstracted down to each network could have IC, but it wouldn't be multiple IC, just the strongest rated. So, what is the hacker fighting when IC has detected him? I guess I'd just like to see some more examples... |
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Nov 6 2007, 08:17 PM
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#90
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Ah, I see where you're coming from now. However, you could make datajacks so incredibly necessary, and the cost of brainhacking so high (which therefore greatly lowers the chance of someone bothering to brainhack a wageslave), that everyone would still want a datajack even though it exposes them to some possible danger. Real world examples: Look at cellphones. They may very well cause cancer, but even though the downside is extreme, the risk is very low, and the cellphones are vastly more convenient than landlines. The same could be said of smoking cigarettes. Everyone knows they cause cancer but the perceived benefits (weight loss, coolness factor) exceed the small risk of a great price. Look at television, all those ads are designed to brain hack us and we know it, but we still watch because the shows are fun. Also look at cars. The death toll every year from automobile related deaths is staggering, but the benefit is greater than risk*downside. A crazed maniac could very well walk into my building and shoot me, but that doesn't make me want to buy a bulletproof vest. The downside is extremely high, but the chance of that downside occurring is extremely low, therefore everyone will still engage in that behavior if the upside is high enough. Therefore, if you increase the cost of brainhacking software (both in terms of nuyen cost and creation skill), this will reduce the chance of some supervillian (i.e. me) from running amok and enslaving a particular wageslave even though she/he's only protected with a rating 3 firewall datajack they bought at the mall kiosk. The wage slave gains all the fantastic benefits of having a datajack, but only has a slight chance that some maniac is going to try to brain hack him/her. This results in everyone making themselves vulnerable, but still allows some hotshot hacker with truckloads of nuyen and/or time to hack people's brains. |
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Nov 6 2007, 08:27 PM
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#91
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Its a long read, but you may want to look it over again. Hackers still need programs to brain hack, so its not just by default. There are a lot of programs there, and I think after availability and costs get factored in, you can really limit what characters are going to be able to have, let alone, start out with. There is going to be an investment to get all that stuff. The other thing to keep in mind, is this whole LOS thing that Frank introduces for Matrix actions. I don't quite understand it completely yet, but it doesn't sound like you are going to have LOS to everyone in the world at once...so it is limiting. Also, if you look at the Type: B programs, what brain hacks can you do: Brain Scan Find Mind Black Hammer Jingle Seize Peristalsis Taxman None of these "control" the target's brain. You can damage a person, sneak in a fact, force a -2 dice pool or start convulsions in him/her. Or, anyone with a gun could walk up to you and shoot you, and if you have no armor, you are in for a lot of pain...I don't think its anymore dangerous than a gun or mage... |
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Nov 6 2007, 08:34 PM
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#92
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 2-July 07 Member No.: 12,125 |
@ Eidolon
Nope, you are not alone. Hackers in my games generally have so much stuff to do that I have to kick them in the ass to keep the game moving. Theres just so many different ways that hacking can function. I have no idea how a group could do anything in SR4 without a hacker. About brainhacking I just ignored that whole premise of the rules set for consideration if / when adapting it to my current game. Core principles like Veracity, compiling one-use programs for hacking, the various hacking "spells (programs)" and their uses etc. are the kinds of things that I was most interested in. Essentially, the system that Frank put forth allows for a mechanical resolution of various interpretations of what you can do with Exploit or Edit without having to essentially default. This is a good thing in a lot of ways. Luckily, the whole system is designed pretty harmoniously and as a result it doesn't look like it will break down & slow down to resolve these checks. Brain hacking, while cool, departs pretty significantly from the aesthetic of SR4 as I know it. So I just hacked the idea from the main body and left a bloody, but beautiful, stump. - der menkey "Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." ~ Ernest Hemingway |
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Nov 6 2007, 08:49 PM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 3-May 06 From: On the Run Member No.: 8,521 |
Geostationary Satellites over cities, which meets LOS and Signal requirements, broadcasting Taxman so all Citizens report to the Computer for Assignment. :cyber:
Nifty Ideas, I'll gank some of them - but for me, the brainhacking issue evokes the same distaste that the Paranoia RPG does. |
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Nov 6 2007, 09:08 PM
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#94
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Well, luckily, the brain hacking stuff is very limited. Aside from Black Hammer, just remove the remaining 6 Type: B programs and its gone...
I might end up doing that as well, as I haven't even allowed TMs in my campaign, so I'm not too sure that I need to add brain hacks right now either. I think it is pretty doable in Frank's rules and doesn't create havoc, but it does diverge a bit from what I am used to in SR. |
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Nov 6 2007, 09:23 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
I don't mean to be offensive, but wow. You guys are ok with a average joe who fiddles with computers hacking a low end car and ramming up someones ass (Either giving them brain damage, threatening them into submission, or out right killing them) for as low as about...what? A thousand yen worth of gear? But you're almost flabbergasted that someone has to do it with programs that we dont even know are available and could cost who knows how much! Lets do some math (By core standards) Metalink Commlink: 100Y Vector Zim Os: 200Y Expliot R2: 500Y Command R1: 50Y Total: 850Y Skill: -1 (Default) Attr: 3 (Logic) Prog: 2 (Expliot) VR: 2 Edg: 2 (Human) Total: 8 Dice (Buying 2 successes), (7(1Firewall+6Admin), 1 init pass): Average 15 seconds. Vs 2 dice Wow, so why isn't everybody doing this? It certainly seems cheaper than brain exploding people. Think about it before you guys get all frothy over the subject. |
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Nov 6 2007, 09:33 PM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 385 Joined: 20-August 07 Member No.: 12,766 |
I don't think that people are specifically upset about what's possible at what price. The issue stems from this new angle that hacking can now directly attack brains, totally changing a critical dynamic that was previously governed by what kind of technology a character carries.
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Nov 6 2007, 09:34 PM
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#97
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It's more a flavor thing than a mechanics thing. I don't want brain-hacking in my Shadowrun in the same way that I don't want big-ass Giant Mechs in my Shadowrun. Any potential set of rules or mechanics for that type of thing are, to me, immaterial. |
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Nov 6 2007, 09:44 PM
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#98
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Sure. You could adjust the Nash Equilibrium with a carrot instead of a stick. You could make it so that datajacks gave you muffins and blow jobs all day such that them allowing you to be hacked was considered a minor set back. And you could write those rules because I'm not going to. I have no idea how to make datajacks indepently groovy enough that player characters would seriously feel that increasing their vulnerability to brain hacking was something that they were willing to pay money and essence for. I don't think you do either, although I could be wrong. Maybe you have some rule formulated by which Datajacks make you just all around better enough of the time that you could create an equilibrium in which players and security personel had them in sufficient numbers that you could none-the-less support a blanket restriction on hacking targets which refused to purchase that eqipment. But I don't. Ghost in the Shell was cool. The whole thing where the team had one guy on board who was all meat because even though he wasn't as fast or as strong or as good at anything he was unhackable and unpredictable. That's a valid way to set up some science fiction. But seriously I don't know how you'd make it work. Especially not in a world in which Mages already "get something" for not having datajacks. Keeping your Essence is a reward in and of itself. It doesn't need to come with "immunity to 1/3 of the characters". And If it does, then datajacks have to provide something really, really awesome. And I don't have any ideas. It would require a different complete rewrite than the one I did. -Frank |
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Nov 6 2007, 09:55 PM
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#99
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
RE: Brain Hacking
I'm kind of suprized that brains have always been a 1-way-street in shadowrun in terms of hacking, you can always hack with your brain, but can never have your brain hacked. It seems like a double standard to me, and leads to problems like "Brains can't be hacked, but technomancers have a node in their brain, can their node be hacked or is it immune?". If you don't allow TM's in to your game, then it makes sense to try and keep brains as sacred, but considering no other meat is really sacred in the game I don't see what makes the brain worth saving. |
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Nov 6 2007, 10:01 PM
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#100
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
______________________________________________________________________
Suuure as hell seems like it. |
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