 House Rules de Santa Cruz, Mostly as regards BPs and Karma |
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 Oct 29 2006, 05:39 PM
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#51
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
i'm not sure what you mean by "balanced against each other". if you mean "have the same value", well, yes. but if you just mean "close any possibility of cost loopholes that spring from a difference in value between BP and karma", eg having it be more economical to buy certain things post-chargen, algebra disagrees with you. you just have to decide ahead of time what factor of difference you want to exist between BP and karma--2? 5? 7.734? 20? now, i'm not going to argue that SR4 does that correctly. but it is possible. i'm not pointing this out to argue semantics, i'm pointing it out because giving karma a value larger than BP (eg, making 1 BP equal to 5 karma) allows GMs to hand out minor rewards, and limit the rate of progression without the players feeling like the GM is scrooging too much. with larger-value karma, GMs can toss out a 1 karma reward for rp, planning, humor, or whatever without the characters advancing too quickly. under your rules, two good jokes are worth a point of skill. two good jokes per session, over five sessions? that's an attribue point. some GMs might be comfortable with that--with only being able to hand out karma rewards for major accomplishments (or, alternatively, with having their characters max out their skills and attributes within the course of a relatively short campaign). i, personally, wouldn't be. |
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Oct 29 2006, 05:53 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,590 |
Indeed, BP and Karma need not be 1-for-1. It could be adjusted in many ways. One that comes to mind is that the roleplaying and other rewards need not be whole numbers all the time: e.g. maybe your joke got you 0.5 BP, or 0.25, although whole numbers have a certain simplicity to them that is quite likeable.
[EDIT: Or you could give rewards in Karma, and then convert Karma to BP at a certain ratio, as mfb suggested. I was merely pointing out a way of handling small rewards that would not require us to keep both karma and BP around. As whole numbers are more elegant though, keeping karma around (and converting them to BP at a certain non-1-to-1 ratio) might make for a more elegant solution.] |
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Oct 29 2006, 07:49 PM
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#53
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
So you could give out fractional BPs and call it something else? Sure, I guess you could do that. Personally, I don't think that getting 5000 XP! (10,000 XP = 1 BP) is any different from getting "half a build point", and I don't feel any less cheated by it. Either way you have to divide things by other things, I don't think there is any purpose served by multiplying and then dividing rather than just dividing straight off. But then, I also don't think that you should even bother giving out rewards which are too small to be spent. I think that's insulting and hard to keep track of. -Frank |
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Oct 29 2006, 07:56 PM
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#54
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
most people find it easier to work with whole numbers; i was assuming that BP rewards would, therefore, be handed out in whole numbers. as for rewards that are too small to be spent... do you throw away nickels? |
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Oct 30 2006, 02:37 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,590 |
Well, I don't know about insulting. I think that, with some players, more direct rewards would work better. If you use XP or karma points - or whatever else we choose to call them -, then you can give some to players during the game instead of making a note for a possibly higher reward at the end of the game. I think it could improve the roleplay of a few players I know, and it would help me make sure I don't forget to reward things that deserve it. It might sound like I'm looking down on my players, but I think it would help me "train" my players - and train me too, as a player, whenever someone else is the GM. The sad truth is, we haven't played much in the last few years, so it could help us get back on track faster, I think. And it could help new players a lot too. For experienced players though, I agree with you that: a) it might slow down the game with additional book-keeping, and b) the latter might really get on the nerves of some players. |
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Oct 30 2006, 06:45 PM
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#56
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
How often do you count your pennies?
The Initiation Costs are BP = Karma cost. Magic, on the other hand, simply costs 10 BP per point (however large it gets). However, while other stats have only a soft cap (a point beyond which attribute costs are doubled), Magic's cap is "hard" (at least until you buy up your initiate grade). So buying a Logic of 7 costs 20 points, buying a Magic of 7 costs 23* and comes with a minor power. *Initiation can be much less expensive if you perform an ordeal or join the ancient secret society of the "No Homers Club". Practically this means that people can focus on Agility or Magic and pay out roughly comparable amounts of BP for either - but that Magicians get a slightly better deal because they gain metamagics and have techniques to defray costs. -Frank |
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Oct 30 2006, 07:25 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,590 |
Frank, sorry to ask again, but I'm really curious: 1-) Do you mean that you've gotten rid of Wired Reflexes 3 and capped "modern wired refelexes" at 2? Or do you mean that Wired 3 were way too expensive in terms of Essence (and nuyen) for what they did? 2-) Also, did you change the corresponding adept power to reflect this lower cost? |
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Oct 30 2006, 08:10 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
I can answer 2) No. Or at least he hasn't told me about it if he has. I just bought another point of magic up to 9 and i'd be dropping that point into adept powers and pushing my Increased reflexes up to level 3 if it didn't cost me two magic points to buy that damn level 3. Hmmm I might save up for the next point and do it anyway. 4 IPs are nice. Faster than the sams, heh. |
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Oct 30 2006, 08:53 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 340 Joined: 18-September 06 From: Chicago (CZ) Member No.: 9,422 |
Doesnt the rate of growth no matter what become the equivilant of how good you are and how much time it takes to get better? (regarding BP and Karma)
This is why we need a cannon book to adjust the rules to diverse play styles. I think that the rules the way they are now are good for low level campains but lack the meat needed to take the player to the next level through the course of time... the way most of us play. At the beginging you should be slightly better than the average pedestrian but you have to play consistantly for your character to come into fruition I guess streamlining the game makes it difficult to provide enough insentive to casually play and keep up with the world. For mid to high level games (someone of Franks experiance) his rules fit perfect You see how much time he's put into gaming with 2 or 3 groups, wish I was there). If you like them run with them. I'm still wondering about the kinks of the technomancer. This archtype is still in its infancy and can change over time (don't say anything Frank I want to see if i can figgure it out on my own). |
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Oct 31 2006, 04:06 AM
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#60
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
being as how i've just started my own business, once a week minimum. granted, not everybody does that--but a karma to BP ratio greater than 1 doesn't need to include pennies. we're talking about houserules, after all. just because a given reward is less than the amount required for an average upgrade doesn't mean most rewards have to be 1/100th of the average upgrade. |
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Oct 31 2006, 04:19 AM
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#61
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Wow Derek, thanks for getting in the Holloween spirit and raising the dead! I had forgotten just how god damn funny I can be.
Well at least -I- think I'm funny. ;) |
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Oct 31 2006, 09:59 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,590 |
Ok, thanks. At 1 per level, the adept power would be too cheap. Essence is more precious to sammies than Power Points are to adepts because one cannot simply buy Essence points with karma (or BP). Looking at Synaptic Booster a bit more closely, I think I've partly answered 1). I was still thinking that Synaptic Booster was limited to level 2, which is not the case anymore. Ok, Synaptic Booster is *much* more expensive than Wired Reflexes in terms of nuyen, but it has a lower availability, its Essence cost is three to four times lower - which makes a *huge* difference -, and it won't make metal detectors go off at the airport. So the change makes a lot of sense. And I'll keep 3 levels as well so the sammies can be as fast as the adepts. |
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Oct 31 2006, 12:07 PM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
This is completely off-topic, but out of curious what are the values of nickels and dimes? 5c and 10c in that order? I never can remember since those terms (along with penny and quarter, but we also have no equivalents to those coins) are not used here. Makes it doubly annoying when a lecturer just copies a question from an American source without changing the coin types. |
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Oct 31 2006, 12:24 PM
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#64
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Penny = 1% of a US Dollar or $0.01
Nickle = 5% of a US Dollar or $0.05 Dime = 10% of a US Dollar or $0.10 Quarter = 25% of a US Dollar or $0.25 |
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Oct 31 2006, 02:11 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
So I was right, 5 cent and 10 cent coins.
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Oct 31 2006, 10:46 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
Exactly on both points. :) I seem to recall vaguely, I only half pay attention as i'm a mystic adept, that the discussion we had was only a crack monkey would take wired 3. |
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Nov 1 2006, 04:03 AM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,590 |
Ok, cool. Thanks a lot! :-)
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Nov 1 2006, 09:46 AM
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#68
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Concerning bp=karma, groups who are able to handle real numbers up to 2000 could simply multiply all RAW bp costs and the given amount by five. Those would be able to handle fractions of a bp too, but natural numbers feel ... more natural.
@Frank: If you use the 1:10000 ratio, you should just say points instead of build points. Not just because 1 point will build nothing ;) |
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Nov 11 2006, 05:36 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,590 |
You can get more than one ally, right? And you don't need to take another initiate grade for that, right? If so, how does the first Force point cost? I'm asking because one of my players has a character concept centered around using three allies - two of which use Inhabitation. I suggest 5 BP for the first Force point, mostly because it allows for round numbers at higher Force. It could be higher or lower. I don't think the first point absolutely needs to be cheaper than the second. |
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Nov 11 2006, 08:36 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Note Calonna Member No.: 241 |
Cn you have more than one ally? Don't have my copy of Stree Magic handy to check, but I guess I just assumed you could only have one.
Having mulipte allies would be very karma intensive. but could be quite cool. |
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Nov 11 2006, 08:59 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,590 |
Well, as far as I know, the rules in SR2, SR3 and SR4 never specifically said anything along the lines of "A magician cannot have more than one ally spirit." Therefore, I assume the door was left open for people who would like to use more than one. If the intention was to limit magicians to only one, I hope it will be made explicit in the coming FAQ and/or the Street Magic errata.
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Nov 11 2006, 09:10 PM
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#72
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
well, here's the problem using frank's current rules:
the first point of force is free. thus, you could get unlimited force 1 ally spirits (which is a problem, because they can all inhabit people and/or objects to become quite useful). |
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Nov 11 2006, 09:25 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,590 |
Well, I was suggesting 5 BP for the first Force point (and not 0), but you make me realize that Frank's rules were the original rules and that he, at least, most probably did not intend to allow for more than one - or else I assume he'd have written them differently.
I think my player's character concept is cool, so I'll allow it anyways, but I wanted to know if there was an official answer on the subject. [EDIT: Maybe I'll allow him several allies, but require him to take a new Ally Conjuration metamagic every time, or something like that, in much the same way Attunement (Item) requires a metamagic for each type of item you want to attune.] |
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Nov 11 2006, 09:28 PM
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#74
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
no, frank's rules are pretty clearly not the original rules he intended. much as he prefers his BP system, i rather doubt he decided "hey i'm gonna revamp just one section of street magic to use BP after chargen."
i doubt even more that it would have been approved if he had said that. |
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Nov 11 2006, 09:32 PM
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#75
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The intention as I understand it, was never that characters could have multiple ally spirits. In no edition has it ever been intentional that characters could have more than one.
However, previous editions never actually said "You can't have more than one" - they just never mentioned being able to have more than one. Thus, for consistency with ongoing games, the same pattern pretty much had to hold true in SR4. Nothing anywhere says that you can have two ally spirits, but for ongoing campaigns where it's already established storyline that people can do that - I'm not going to do anything bad to you. No edition of the rules has ever been tested with characters having multiple ally spirits. That's never been the way Paul Hume, Steven Kenson, Peter Taylor, or myself ran it. As far as I'm concerned, the ability to conjure multiple ally spirits is equivalent to the rules never telling you that your character can't breathe magma or live on a diet of plastisteel shavings. Magical abilities are not something that you have unless you are told that you don't - quite the opposite. That being said, this exploit is old. Like 1st edition old, and I am very well aware of it. Some people appear to have found a way to have a reasonably balanced game where they have fun in which magicians conjure multiple ally spirits. They've been doing that for over 15 years, and I honestly think it would be cruel of me to tell them in explicit language to stop doing it. But seriously guys, if you're summoning multiple outstanding allies at once you're on your own. I'm not saying you can't run a satisfying game where people do that - I'm saying that passively letting you continue is the best you're getting from me. :P -Frank |
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