 Gender modified limit? |
  |
 Oct 1 2004, 02:13 AM
Post
#76
|
|
|
Beetle Eater  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826  |
What does Shadowrun have in common with anything usual?
It never states how the stats are achieved and what kinds of therapy, training, and manipulations are undertaken to obtain equality in attributes, nor need it. For all the mechanics care, the woman with a strength of 10 has sacrificed her female genes to do so. I can think of no reason to create rules for something that is better dealt with in character, both in terms of end results and fun. |
 |
 
|
|
Oct 1 2004, 02:15 AM
Post
#77
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Certainly. If you'll note, I haven't been a proponent of actual stat mods during any of this, though I admitted that some of them could at times be arguable if you're approaching this in certain ways.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Oct 1 2004, 03:14 AM
Post
#78
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: 23-February 03 Member No.: 4,141 |
Moving a proportional mass to power ratio down a track at a certain speed is one thing, but pressing a weight over your head and massing a huge powerful body able to absorb trauma more easily is another. In a non sexist world we would not have men and women's competitions....it would just be human competitions. I kind of doubt that is anywhere near the next century or two regardless of how fast a woman who changed the hormone levels in her body with steroids runs a mile.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 1 2004, 03:15 PM
Post
#79
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
At the end of the day it comes down to this. There are physical and mental differences between the sexes and there are physical differences between the different races of homo sapiens. The important thing about the differences is that they are only significant when a large sample population and normal distribution is used. Inter-person differences in a small population group can completely mask the underlying racial/gender differences.
Men tend to be bigger and stronger than women because there are more big strong men in most a local sample populations. If you swapped the all the men from Iceland and Thailand, then took Iceland to be your sample population you would have to say that women tend to be bigger and stronger. Do not apply any gender based attribute modifies to SR character generation, it is not a probability based generation system. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 1 2004, 07:16 PM
Post
#80
|
|
|
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Just for the sake of keeping the rules form over flowing with minute modifiers I would say no to Gender based modifiers.
Let's not kid our selves though, men are physically stronger than woman. That's just the way it is. Are there woman who are really strong? Yes. But the strongest woman will never be strongest man. Is that bad? No. Men and woman are different. Different isn't a weakness. It is just different. So keep the game simple and keep the gender differences RP only. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 1 2004, 10:07 PM
Post
#81
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Arethusa was comparing two equally strong lifters of opposing sexes - not two equally heavy. All he was saying is that a woman who can lift a maximum 100kgs over her head is smaller than a man who can lift a maximum of 100kgs above his head. They might have the same weight though. As for the weightlifting results you quoted: the woman's 305 is 80% of the man's 375 in approximately the same weight class. This ties in very nicely with above quoted percentages (taking into account that the differences will be less at the extreme ends of the scale than they are on average, and that both upper and lower body strength matter for the final result.) That said, I agree that it is bad to introduce gender bonuses in shadowrun. Not because gender difference is wrong, but because the SR attribute scale and character creation system aren't suitable for it. P.S. I am a male feminist; I am of the opinion that there are significant biological differences between the sexes; I am currently creating an RPG system that takes some of these differences into consideration for attributes. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oct 2 2004, 03:55 AM
Post
#82
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: 23-February 03 Member No.: 4,141 |
Which is why I am not really suggesting giving any bonuses for gender, but rather not allowing the physical attribute changing edges that increase the racial maximum to female PCs. That would be a relatively minor inconvenience for a little realism. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 2 2004, 11:51 PM
Post
#83
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Gah... I don't know why I keep doing this to myself, I think it's the willingness to ignore facts that's so prominently on display here... You know how much the woman who lifted the 305kg weighed? 120kg. The second and third place takers were at 112 and 118, respectively. The lightest men that lifted MORE than the strongest women WEIGHED ONLY ABOUT ONE HALF AS MUCH, LESS THAN 62 GODDAMN KILOGRAMS, and were around 10cm shorter on average. Men have higher muscle tone. Men are stronger. Male weightlifters are much lighter than equally strong female weightlifters. Assuming the same level of training, a man is going to be stronger than a woman of equal body weight. It doesn't make men better people, or give them the right to rule the world, but it just happens to be the fucking reality, and it's insane how many people need to go to absurd lengths to deny it. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 3 2004, 05:46 AM
Post
#84
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Not that I would necessarily incorporate the following into a game that I run, but...
I think if there is a need for a distinction to be made, then I would incorporate bits of what was proposed by (I believe) Rory Blackhand previously. I would disallow females from taking the Exceptional Strength Edge, but would also restrict males from the Exceptional Quickness Edge. I would also round down these respective Attributes (Quickness for males and Strength for females) instead of rounding up when calculating Maximum Attribute Rating. I don't believe any more than this needs to be done. As to all the crap about men being idiots around women...have y'all seen the stats on women that stay with abusive husbands 'because they love them'? Hasn't anyone heard about women losing their heads over guys that they know are bad for them, but they can't help themselves? It runs both ways guys...if it didn't we'd have died out as a species quite some time ago. :D |
|
|
|
|
Oct 3 2004, 07:31 PM
Post
#85
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
Women are idiots. OK, i'll bear that in mind next time a woman in the office curses 'men' under her breath. I don't think it'll stop me getting fired, but it would be oh so worth it...
We have put up with female's sexism for far too long! Rise my brothers! Throw off the shackles of 'your share of the housework!' Deny the cruel-breasted race from wearing your coats after you get out of a nightclub because they were too fashion obsessed to bring one of their own even though its december and ten below! Cease and desist your spider patrols men, and refuse to put up those shelves - we're on strike! :D (not that a grinning face is going to save me from the wrath about to pour on my head - especially if my s/o reads this post - I'm sure...) |
|
|
|
|
Oct 4 2004, 01:57 AM
Post
#86
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
I'm going to assume either you're making a poor poor joke, or we now have a wonderful explanaition as to why you don't get 2nd dates
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 4 2004, 03:23 AM
Post
#87
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
This is so going nowhere. It's starting to become as cool as a flame thread on www.bullshido.com.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 4 2004, 08:15 AM
Post
#88
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I disagree. The first part of my post is a direct answer to the question asked by the thread-starter. The second part was in response to the seemingly overwhelming opinion that only men suffer from hormone- and/or love-induced stupidity. No flames are, or indeed were intended.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 4 2004, 11:35 AM
Post
#89
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
After watching a programme called "Body Shots" on Friday night about how alcohol actually effects the body, I think men should get a bonus to willpower. I shall explain.
Alcohol affects the brain in a particular way, starting with the frontal lobes (highest part) and progressing back to limbic system (low part), it slows down rate at which the brain functions. It has a secondary effect on women, an increase of testosterone to the levels found in a sober man. Everybody who has been exposed to drunken people should have noticed that women tend to "get drunk" faster than men; the thing is they aren't any more drunk than men, just that they don't have the ability to cope with that level of testosterone. Of course, after prolonged drinking men also lose the ability to cope and turn into twats. Because of this, men should have a higher willpower, afterall their hormonal emotions are permenatly set to "drunk woman" and yet mostly manage to cope. :D ;) |
|
|
|
|
Oct 4 2004, 07:26 PM
Post
#90
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
...Perhaps being drunk is less noticable in men because we're idiots even when we're sober?
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 12 2004, 12:44 AM
Post
#91
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
http://erintoughill.com/
I'll bet she didn't get a -1 to STR, and she's probably stronger than many males. Look at that muscle tone. Be sure to check out the Techniques section; the link is on the bottom of the page. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 12 2004, 12:51 AM
Post
#92
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
rrowwr. regardless, "stronger than many males" doesn't really have anything to do with "upper limits on strength according to gender". you can pic up an issue of Flex magazine any month of the year and find ten guys in it that are stronger than her.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 21st September 2025 - 05:20 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.