Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. Options

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, but obviously we're talking about declaring war. Incidentally, there are tens of thousands of SAM launchers in the world so it's not particularly traceable. Russians sell them by the container ship load to anyone in the area.

[Ravor]

True, but given that scenerio we still ahve a problem of why hasn't the Great Dragons been hunted down, especially the ones that has decided to declare themselves as being perfectlly willing and able to push humanity around at whim.

[Cthulhudreams]

GM: Plot powers.

It makes (as much?) sense as whatever keeps happening that california that doesn't make any sense at all, is against the rules of magic as described and physically impossible - and if it did happen would also cause catastrophic tsunamis that would probably wreck everything that lives around the pacific.

Actually it's really strange. If Dragons turned up today, they'd be an instant media sensation, and if all they did was start buying companies and kicking around with gold they buried from their hordes, no-one would care.

But we all know what happens when merely bomb major human cities and the answer is we go hit you back with nuclear fire, so it's not obvious how most dragons haven't go dogpiled. It's just against everything that we know about human nature.

[Ravor]

Although I pretty much disagree with your answer of "Power of Plot" with the notable exception of Ghostwalker of course for the sake of argument I'd say that the Horrors not already here would get the same "plot protection" as the Horrors (I.E. Dragons) that are already here do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Seriously though, I see the Great Dragons as being able to pull off the stunts that they do because they are smart enough not to allow themselves to be in a position to get bombed in the first place, just as the "smart" Horrors would do while the dumb ones were keeping humanity and their guns busy.

The way I see the Scrouge as playing out is that as the Horrors start pouring across the void pretty much everywhere, humanity will strike back with everything that they can against the swarms of gnashers and Horror Constructs. And in the first few battles they might even hold their own until supplies start to run low, after all, its going to be hard to restock when everywhere is at siege. (I figure that the answer to your "barren Earth" theory is that much like on their own plane the Horrors turn on themselves when food starts to run out, but that doesn't really help during the actual battles themselves as humans appear to be far more tasty.)

But then something else starts to happen, the smarter and more dangerous Horrors start marking people and everything starts to go to hell quickly as chains of command simply fall apart as people are driven into madness and worse. Hell, at this point even researching the nature of the Horrors puts you at real risk of being marked so the brightest minds that might have been able to find new weapons to save humanity either claw their own eyes out or even worse turn their research against their brothers in arms.

And the worse part of all is that the Horrors don't need commanders or orders of their own, their very nature makes them perfect for this kind of "warfare", hell Big V has seen to that personally.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Although I pretty much disagree with your answer of "Power of Plot" with the notable exception of Ghostwalker of course for the sake of argument I'd say that the Horrors not already here would get the same "plot protection" as the Horrors (I.E. Dragons) that are already here do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Seriously though, I see the Great Dragons as being able to pull off the stunts that they do because they are smart enough not to allow themselves to be in a position to get bombed in the first place, just as the "smart" Horrors would do while the dumb ones were keeping humanity and their guns busy.

The way I see the Scrouge as playing out is that as the Horrors start pouring across the void pretty much everywhere, humanity will strike back with everything that they can against the swarms of gnashers and Horror Constructs. And in the first few battles they might even hold their own until supplies start to run low, after all, its going to be hard to restock when everywhere is at siege. (I figure that the answer to your "barren Earth" theory is that much like on their own plane the Horrors turn on themselves when food starts to run out, but that doesn't really help during the actual battles themselves as humans appear to be far more tasty.)

But then something else starts to happen, the smarter and more dangerous Horrors start marking people and everything starts to go to hell quickly as chains of command simply fall apart as people are driven into madness and worse. Hell, at this point even researching the nature of the Horrors puts you at real risk of being marked so the brightest minds that might have been able to find new weapons to save humanity either claw their own eyes out or even worse turn their research against their brothers in arms.

And the worse part of all is that the Horrors don't need commanders or orders of their own, their very nature makes them perfect for this kind of "warfare", hell Big V has seen to that personally.

This is a very depressing scenario, and is probably EXACTLY how it would play out too...

I hate the Horrors...

Keep the Faith

[Paul]

Wow this thread has a lot of stupid in one spot.

[Ravor]

Well it does now thanks to you.

[Cthulhudreams]

@Plot powers: It is impossible to conduct any sort of debate if you abandon the published numbers. If you're happy with 'Can the humanity beat the horrors' being 'whatever the writers decide' then it's already decided, humanity wins and almost wipes themselves out in the process. End of discussion

If you wish to discuss you need to answer two basic assumptions

1) 'do the humans know they are coming' I predicated my answer on the basis that the humans have 1000 years of forewarning of the horror invasion as per earthdawn. In I suspect the answer would be the same with anything greater than 100. Remember dunkkie and friends haven't bothered to tell the humans yet, so it is reasonably a way off.

This obviously enables stockpiling and specialist research into key areas: if you know you need 30 years of munitions stockpiled, you can just do that. It's also what enables things like genetic engineering the entire human population. You have decades to work on it. It's also impossible to infilitrate chains of command if you know they are coming, you're going to issue people with Syndicate RPG style 'Z-chips' that remove emotional content, impose redundancy and dual chains of command.

It also means weapons are likely to radically change - 1000 years ago we were going at each other swords and axes, and didn't really know how to use steel. Today we go at each other with MLRS rocket launchers wth GPS guidance systems that are capable of removing entire units from the map in one salvo. in another 1000 years we might know how to control the fundamental forces of the universe and be able to instantly dissociate any horror that appears on the physical or astral plan by removing all their higgs bosons.

2) 'Is it the world with real political structures or not' Humans in RL have a proven history of being able to desively band together vs threats (see: WWII). SR might not.

This tells you whether you will get decisive action.

I'm clearly discussing 'Forewarned and acting together'

You are discussing 'No warning, acting disparetly'

Need a common position. I agree without warning and with no collective action, the humans will lose. With even 50 years of warning and collective action, I think the humans will win. 50 years gave us nuclear weapons without collective action! Imagine what you could produce in 50 years of 'we need weapons that we can send to another dimension to collapse it entirely'

[toturi]

But then something else starts to happen, the smarter and more dangerous Horrors start marking people and everything starts to go to hell quickly as chains of command simply fall apart as people are driven into madness and worse. Hell, at this point even researching the nature of the Horrors puts you at real risk of being marked so the brightest minds that might have been able to find new weapons to save humanity either claw their own eyes out or even worse turn their research against their brothers in arms.

And the worse part of all is that the Horrors don't need commanders or orders of their own, their very nature makes them perfect for this kind of "warfare", hell Big V has seen to that personally.

Or instead you can use those already darkest craziest most insane to find the new weapons to save humanity. You are not upending the paradigm and breaking the mindset. When you fight against the Horrors, there are no rules. You have to enjoy being marked and turning and subverting the nature of the mark. Cheat, don't follow the rules, enjoy the pain and madness. Make it work against them.

Change our nature such that their very nature works against them in this kind of warfare. Make it such that Big V fucked up. Free your mind. Break the limits. Recognise that there are no rules. Cheat. Munchkin. Win.

[3278]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Joe Chummer]

I would just like to point out for the record that it is "kaer," NOT "Kaern" or any other derivation. You're confusing that with "cairn," which is a pile of rocks placed in a mound or cone, usually as a landmark or over a dead body, as for a burial, which is nothing remotely similar to a kaer, an underground city/community protected by magical wards (which is in turn a deconstruction of "caer," which is Welsh for citadel or fortress). And the only time "kaer" is capitalized is if is included as part of the Name of a specific kaer, such as "Kaer Jalendale" or "Kaer Tardim."

[Ravor]

Hmm it seems that you utterly and completely missed the part where I said "seriously though", so I'll clarify, the part about "plot powers" wasn't even remotely meant as a serious answer.

As for the the rest, even if humanity had 100 years to prepare (And there is no way that they have more than that considering that the Bugs are already here.) it isn't going to do much good, hell, I'm assuming that humanity has advance notice as well, if not then we don't stand a chance even in the begining, where exactly are you going to be stockpiling all of your supplies? The Horrors are fragging everywhere and I don't remember the Dragons and whatever Second World IEs that were running around exactly doing anything all that useful the last time around.

Using P-Fixes isn't a half bad idea, at least to help prevent being marked in the first place from stray emotions (Sadly that isn't the only way to get Marked.) but once a Horror got to you I don't think they'd do a damned thing. And really, requiring dual chains of command? Do you have any idea how much damange the ineffectincy alone would cause?

And remember, history has shown us that humanity only rallies together when the actual hoards are banging down the front door and not a minute before. I mean are you seriously going to point to WWII as your example of choice when what happened leading up to WWII means that the Horrors will easily catch humanity with our collective pants around our ankles?

[BishopMcQ]

There was a small allusion to it, but holy fucking thread necromancy. Let the battles resume and leave no shred of sentient thought unmolested.

Remember: Winner takes all, and I will happily collaborate with whichever side looks to be winning.

[Cthulhudreams]

Less than being infiltrated by horrors really. It's a hugely inefficient system but when plan B is 'lose' you're done. Plus all the guy has to do is sit there until the other guy becomes horror marked.

Nerve stapling your brain would also help considerably. As you've repeatedly pointed out, things without emotions are just not intresting to the horrors. If you eliminate all emotions (easily done), you're free to fight and immune to most horror marks! You can scrub your entire pesonality if required and restore from backup later. No problems. Fire the backups into space if you must.

As for the the rest, even if humanity had 100 years to prepare (And there is no way that they have more than that considering that the Bugs are already here.) it isn't going to do much good, hell, I'm assuming that humanity has advance notice as well, if not then we don't stand a chance even in the begining, where exactly are you going to be stockpiling all of your supplies? The Horrors are fragging everywhere and I don't remember the Dragons and whatever Second World IEs that were running around exactly doing anything all that useful the last time around.

Sure, the humans had the book of harrow that told you exactly what was going to happen when though. That's all you need! It's not obvious when the scourge would actually happen in SR4 though - because the mana cycle only started 50 years ago, but it started well before 1000 years before the last scourge. Nothing else to indicate it has radically changed, you can argue the invae snuck across when someone tried to open the bridge that the big D shut!

Again, the BIG D is so invested in this that he is willing to sacrifice his life to stop it from happening to early - don'tcha think that if he thought the sacrifice was in vain and the horrors would turn up in 10 years anyway, he'd just give up?

And remember, history has shown us that humanity only rallies together when the actual hoards are banging down the front door and not a minute before. I mean are you seriously going to point to WWII as your example of choice when what happened leading up to WWII means that the Horrors will easily catch humanity with our collective pants around our ankles?

This has the advantage that you can actually take world leaders to the horror plane, show them the problem, then cruise back. The hordes are banging on the front door too - their was that conspiracy to actually open the door for them just recently.

[Ravor]

Uh-huh, have you ever tried to get anything done in a system of "dual chains of command"? It isn't merely "a hugely inefficient system", its a reciept for nothing getting done very, very slowly. And I don't think I ever said that emotionless humanity is "uninteresting" to the Horrors, merely that P-Fixes would close off one of many methods the Horrors have to mark you, sadly it is not the only method the Horrors have to rip your soul to shreds and given that once Marked tis my memory that the Horror can make you see, hear, and think basicaly whatever it wants you to P-Fixes aren't all that useful.


As I've said before, I'm not a believer in the idea of Dunkie the friendly Dragon. And you would have a point IF the Bugs were able to cross over in a one-off event, but since their metaplane is active to this day I find the idea that their appearance not meaning anything rather amusing.


And yeah, I think that the idea of visiting the Horror's Plane is a really good idea, hell while we are out on our little daytrip why don't we just eat our own guns and have done with it? It is also important to note that the few people who are aware of the Horrors still have their heads buried in the sand (Hmm, kindof makes you wonder if instead of willful stupidity their inaction is born of despare and helplessness.) and that the "little conspiracy" has remained hidden from sight.

[3278]

And I don't think I ever said that emotionless humanity is "uninteresting" to the Horrors...

He may have been responding to my statement that Horrors desire emotional torment in their victims, with the sole exception of Gnashers. I wouldn't blame him; I keep getting you and I confused, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And yeah, I think that the idea of visiting the Horror's Plane is a really good idea, hell while we are out on our little daytrip why don't we just eat our own guns and have done with it?

To quote, "These dark netherworlds are surely places of fluid, ever-changing evil, and it is doubtful that any Name-giver could reach the Horrors' homeland without losing mind, body, and soul." That's an interpretation I share.

[Tachi]

"No, run and hide!" We cannot beatt he Horrors.

I might have posted here sooner, but I have this thing about reading an entire thread before posting, so, uh, yeah, I could use some sympathy right now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

One thing I don't remember seeing mentioned anywhere in the whole mind-numbing unending monotony of this thread is: the horrors may not seem to have as many numbers as they actually do, because remember, they have to split their numbers up to invade ALL the different metaplanes and deep metaplanes, not just ours. Everyone gets some, from the plane of fire to the plane of beasts and the planes that the Invae come from. Everybody gets a share, at least, that's the understanding I got.

But, nevertheless, we're screwed anyway.

Now, if anyone has a copy of the Book of Harrow I'd appreciate it if you would scan it and send me a copy. I'm gonna go dig a kaer in my back yard now.

[Ravor]

Hmm, I'm not sure that I agree, my understanding is that the Horrors are solely interested in our plane and in fact may even be native to Earth if you believe the Dragon's creation myth.

[3278]

Everybody gets a share, at least, that's the understanding I got.

My understanding matches Ravor's, for what that's worth.

Now, if anyone has a copy of the Book of Harrow I'd appreciate it if you would scan it and send me a copy.

Damn it. You just made me go check the bookshelf to see if I'd forgotten that FASA had actually printed such a thing. I was back at the computer and checking Google before it occurred to me that you were joking. Damn, I'm stupid sometimes!

[Tachi]

You guys sure? I'm not sure where I got that impression, but I thought that I had read somewhere that the various spirits had been dealing with them also, though not on quite the scale we have to, or at as much of a disadvantage as we were at. I could be wrong, but I don't think so, can't be sure though. Damn, If I could just remember where I read that...

[3278]

You guys sure?

Hey, there are 27+ Earthdawn books and 100+ Shadowrun books, and I honestly couldn't tell you what I ate for dinner last night, so no, I am in no way sure! That said, the Horrors are one of those things I can safely be said to know rather a bit about - this false modesty doing anything for you? - and I can't think of anything about them ravaging other planes. But, seriously, no idea what I had for dinner last night, so you could be 100 percent correct.

Damn, If I could just remember where I read that...

If you think of a book - any book* - in which you might have read it, let me know, and I'll gleefully re-read it to check. I quite enjoy re-reading Horror material, and the chance to learn something I didn't know about Horrors is pretty intoxicating.

*edit: Lies, all lies. I'm missing all my ED novels save Mother Speaks. Other than that, I've got you covered.

[Tachi]

Hey, there are 27+ Earthdawn books and 100+ Shadowrun books, and I honestly couldn't tell you what I ate for dinner last night, so no, I am in no way sure! That said, the Horrors are one of those things I can safely be said to know rather a bit about - this false modesty doing anything for you? - and I can't think of anything about them ravaging other planes. But, seriously, no idea what I had for dinner last night, so you could be 100 percent correct.


If you think of a book - any book* - in which you might have read it, let me know, and I'll gleefully re-read it to check. I quite enjoy re-reading Horror material, and the chance to learn something I didn't know about Horrors is pretty intoxicating.

*edit: Lies, all lies. I'm missing all my ED novels save Mother Speaks. Other than that, I've got you covered.

I don't think they ravaged the other planes, they were just a major problem/annoyance. It could be a lost cause, I think I read it in one of the old SR novels. I don't think it was the Dragon Heart Saga, but it may have been. I think it was one of the later ones with Talon and Aracos, but... damn, I just can't remember, it's been several years since I read any SR novel, except The Forever Drug which I'm reading now in order to give Prime Runner a synopsis. It could have been anything were someone was having a conversation with a spirit, or talked about having a conversation with a spirit... hehe, really narrows it down huh? Damn. I suddenly have the urge to start at the beginning and read all the SR novels I have.

[Cthulhudreams]

.

[Fuchs]

The discussion seems pointless, really.

We've got the ED fans on one side, allied with the IE fans and Dragon-worshippers, who cannot assume that anything that could threaten their idols would not wipe the floor with the entire metahumanity.

And we have those on the other side who do not think ED is all that and a bag of chips.

[Paul]

Well it does now thanks to you.

Really? Seriously? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) Thanks for the laugh kiddo, I think I'm out on this thread. Like Fuchs said there are some people in this thread unwilling to see any point of view but their own. That's a recipe for crappy discussion.