Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. Options

[kevyn668]

Wow...I haven't been here in years and it's been even longer since I posted something. I can't believe that this debate is still going! At any rate, this will always be one of my favorite threads. I scanned through a few pages and it was nice to see some of the old guard mixing it up with the new blood (given the nature of this thread, pun intended).

[flowswithdrek]

What an epic thread! It will take me weeks to get through it.

Do gnashers defecate?

I believe they don’t, not on the physical world at any rate. IIRC the scholars in the Earthdawn world theorised their waste may be spewed into another plane. Possibly the astral plane causing astral corruption.

[Kagetenshi]

Then it's clear, Gnashers are part of the ecosystem by clearing up excess physical matter generated by use of spells like Create Food or powers like Wealth.

~J

[Larme]

Ok, is it just me, or do Horrors seem like really lazy writing? It's like "OK, forget all the intricate geopolitical, neo-magical, corporate dystopia crazytown we created. The REAL threat is invading monsters from another universe!" It's like if The Bourne moves (maybe not the best movies, but just off the top of my head) spent three films on secret projects, internal government strife, political assassinations, etc., and then the fourth movie was Independence Day. "Hey guess what? None of this matters because aliens are attacking now!"

Now, I'm saying this as someone who's not "in the know" when it comes to SR fiction. I'm just saying this as an outsider looking in, based on what I've gleaned from this forum, it sounds teeth-grindingly bad.

[Fuchs]

Ok, is it just me, or do Horrors seem like really lazy writing? It's like "OK, forget all the intricate geopolitical, neo-magical, corporate dystopia crazytown we created. The REAL threat is invading monsters from another universe!" It's like if The Bourne moves (maybe not the best movies, but just off the top of my head) spent three films on secret projects, internal government strife, political assassinations, etc., and then the fourth movie was Independence Day. "Hey guess what? None of this matters because aliens are attacking now!"

Now, I'm saying this as someone who's not "in the know" when it comes to SR fiction. I'm just saying this as an outsider looking in, based on what I've gleaned from this forum, it sounds teeth-grindingly bad.

It's a matter of taste. Some like it when anything that's not an immortal elf or a great dragon is of no consequence. Having a threat like the horrors emphasizes that.

[Kagetenshi]

Ok, is it just me, or do Horrors seem like really lazy writing? It's like "OK, forget all the intricate geopolitical, neo-magical, corporate dystopia crazytown we created. The REAL threat is invading monsters from another universe!" It's like if The Bourne moves (maybe not the best movies, but just off the top of my head) spent three films on secret projects, internal government strife, political assassinations, etc., and then the fourth movie was Independence Day. "Hey guess what? None of this matters because aliens are attacking now!"

Now, I'm saying this as someone who's not "in the know" when it comes to SR fiction. I'm just saying this as an outsider looking in, based on what I've gleaned from this forum, it sounds teeth-grindingly bad.

What you say is indeed incredibly lazy writing. Fortunately, though, it's also pretty much entirely your creation; there exists a very small set of Shadowrun material that deals with the Horrors, and even though the Invae suggest that a Horror breakthrough is imminent, we're talking imminent in the sense of "maybe as little as a few decades", not "next Tuesday". To frame that in your analogy, it's like we have the first three films as a self-contained trilogy and then we have Independence Day as a separate movie occurring substantially after those events that just happens to be set in the same world. It didn't really set up a whole lot of intrigue, but Mad Max -> The Road Warrior is probably a better analogy; the world breaking down completely by the second film doesn't really cheapen the first one.

~J

[Grinder]

Ok, is it just me, or do Horrors seem like really lazy writing? It's like "OK, forget all the intricate geopolitical, neo-magical, corporate dystopia crazytown we created. The REAL threat is invading monsters from another universe!" It's like if The Bourne moves (maybe not the best movies, but just off the top of my head) spent three films on secret projects, internal government strife, political assassinations, etc., and then the fourth movie was Independence Day. "Hey guess what? None of this matters because aliens are attacking now!"

Now, I'm saying this as someone who's not "in the know" when it comes to SR fiction. I'm just saying this as an outsider looking in, based on what I've gleaned from this forum, it sounds teeth-grindingly bad.

Seeing that the last Scourge occured during the height of the mana level, we're talking aobut another few centuries before anything like that will only happen to start (and will still be far away from the full-blown Scourge)....

[Ravor]

I disagree Fuchs, the threat that the Horrrors represent at best shows that IEs and Great Dragons aren't the be-all end-all of the Sixth World after all they are just as helpless as the rest of us poor suckers. You'd have an excellant point if we were given hints and storylines that the IEs and Dragons were going to ride in and save us all though but luckly even the dragonphiles amongst the devs haven't been quite willing to go that far.

Grinder the only problem with that is that we've already hit many of the milestones in the Scrouge "countdown" far far before they were hit in the Fourth World so I agree with Kagetenshi's timeline of a few decades, which in my opinion is actually a good move on the dev's part as it keeps the Horrors crossing over as just close enough to loom large but far enough away that it doesn't destory the setting that they created.

[hyzmarca]

It is apparently possible with the level of magic required for the horrors to come back, because the Kaer's did it with food, which isn't even possible today. It's fairly clear from the description that adepts can create energy and transform it into physical materials for the purposes of growing food, because otherwise their just isn't enough energy in a closed cave system to support a kaer.

If you can make it into one sort of carbon chain, you can probably make petrol. With that you can make all sorts of things.

doing without the sun is actually pretty hard - it provides most of the energy that makes our corps, so the adepts can create serious energy as if from nothing to do so.



Sigh. There is exactly as much indication that the horrors can use technology, than the horrors are secretly gummy bears. Infact there is LESS indication as materalised spirits and other dual natured beings (which the horrors are) are explicitly prohibited from interacting with the matrix. The only hack around that is inhabitation (not possession!) spirits that can inhabit someone who already has a DNI, and use his knowledge to do stuff.

there is no indication that horrors do inhabitation - only possession and materialization, so my case that that there are gummy bears in the horror dimension that might be the next ones through is actually more likely that your sample of a risk factor that you should plan for, because there is only speculation about the true nature of the horrors and/or their home plane in the earthdawn material I have read. So mine is pure speculation, yours is contraindicated.

We have three sources of information to drawn on

1) The rules - these have to override all other sources because we are talking about altenative scenarios, and mechanics give us a way to test scenarios.

2) The source material - this is functionally the equivalent of primary sources in history. There are two types of source material - the 'god' descriptions provided that are absolutes and typically bookend mechanics information & 'in character' descriptions that can mostly be discarded in earthdawn as those are specifically speculating from limited information.

Given the evidence against horrors being able to use the matrix in our main source (1), and no supporting evidence in any other source material, how can we discuss it rationally?

There is no source material to reference, so we're just talking about how it might work, which is fun, but not renlighting to why I think the horrors will lose and you don't (hint: different assumptions)

@Ravor: No you haven't, because you're not looking at how much gnashers eat. The book is far more damning that my back of the envelop caculation.

Gnashers are quite large, and eat several times their own body weight in a 'matter of minutes'. A conservative estimate calls for each gnasher to eat 30 million tons each, per year. We only have ~125 billion tones of biomass on earth, and a big chunk of that (~33%) lives in the sea. of the remaining 66%, 50% lives in rainforests, leaving 16% outside of the rainforests and under the ocean.

That means four thousand gnashers could (it's not clear if they eat that much all the time, but they are described as ravenous eating machines, so I'm comfortable with that assumption) eat the entire biomass of earth on land in a year, all the ants, termites, trees, plants, bacteria, the lot. But they have 800 years! Even if they eat each other almost all the time, they'll still completely eradicate life on earth. Plus, in the god description given in the GM's guide, they don't eat each other, they instead roam in legions eating everything else.

It also means an gnasher can eat like 4 other gnashers in a couple of minutes, which is impressive.

I should point out that a little book called the Lucifer Deck is still canon, as much as everyone really wants to forget it. In other words, there are spirits that are capable of interacting with the Matrix, its just that they're so rare it is not necesary to produce rules for them, yet.

[Ravor]

Oy, isn't that the one where the IE makes a "magical" cyberdeck using light? I had forgotten that one...

[Joe Chummer]

Ok, is it just me, or do Horrors seem like really lazy writing? It's like "OK, forget all the intricate geopolitical, neo-magical, corporate dystopia crazytown we created. The REAL threat is invading monsters from another universe!" It's like if The Bourne moves (maybe not the best movies, but just off the top of my head) spent three films on secret projects, internal government strife, political assassinations, etc., and then the fourth movie was Independence Day. "Hey guess what? None of this matters because aliens are attacking now!"

Now, I'm saying this as someone who's not "in the know" when it comes to SR fiction. I'm just saying this as an outsider looking in, based on what I've gleaned from this forum, it sounds teeth-grindingly bad.

The Horrors aren't lazy writing in the sense that Earthdawn, the game universe they were explicitly created for, was designed around the Horrors, the Scourge, and the aftermath. They are a central part of that world that cannot be ignored.

However, if the Horrors were introduced in SR, then yes, it would be a cop out in terms of the metaplot, but here's my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) :

I do not think CGL will ever introduce full-blown Horrors into SR.

Introducing the Horrors in any way would irrevocably change the entire landscape of the SR world -- physically, politically, astrally, and otherwise. The Scourge lasted for several hundred years during the 4th world, so unless metahumanity can find a way to either effectively fight them and thus shorten the period of the Scourge (which is a dubious undertaking, given the previous 43 pages of comments) or run and hide from them (which has only proven to be about 50% effective in Earthdawn statistics), most of the world will be devastated in SOME FORM, either by the Horrors themselves, by our methods used to fight them, or both (Hell, in Equinox, the only way metahumanity determined they could win was to BLOW UP THE ENTIRE PLANET, which is a bit drastic). The Scourge, especially when it begins, will be an event on a globally catastrophic scale. Whole continents will get razed as gnashers and lesser Horrors start pouring through from their plane to ours, and entire megas will literally vanish overnight due to attacks in their home cities and the destruction of their home offices and logistical bases. The whole infrastructure of the Matrix will be disrupted as whole chunks of cities and their wireless backbones get carved out, and the status quo of life as we know it will change.

Because of this, I don't think CGL will ever introduce Horrors. All things told, the change from 2050 to 2070 isn't that radical of a paradigm shift when compared to what the world will be like once the Horrors have been introduced.

In short, a 6th World with Horrors would no longer be "Shadowrun." Its setting and would be so radically different it won't even be that recognizable. And if SR changed THAT much, the fans in both the pro-2050/SR2/SR3 and the pro-2070/SR4 camps would band together and flood CGL with mail for FUBARing their beloved game. In that sense, people who love 2050/SR2 would rather play in 2070/SR4 (and vice versa) than confront a game world that has destroyed everything they love about Shadowrun.

[Wounded Ronin]

The Horrors are actually on their way out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LANwIgpha7k

[Ravor]

You know, that song doesn't make any more sense to me now then it did the first time I heard it ... maybe dropping acid while listening would help... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Grinder]

Grinder the only problem with that is that we've already hit many of the milestones in the Scrouge "countdown" far far before they were hit in the Fourth World so I agree with Kagetenshi's timeline of a few decades, which in my opinion is actually a good move on the dev's part as it keeps the Horrors crossing over as just close enough to loom large but far enough away that it doesn't destory the setting that they created.

Ah, Kagetenshi probably meant a few centuries (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Serioulsy, even though a few milestones, as you call them, on the way to the Scourge had been hit, the coming of the Scourge may be advanced by a few decades or maybe a century or two. But then it is still centuries away - and thus shouldn't bother any SR player (player, not character. Player.).

And you guys will so love Equinox, btw. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[darthmord]

I disagree Fuchs, the threat that the Horrrors represent at best shows that IEs and Great Dragons aren't the be-all end-all of the Sixth World after all they are just as helpless as the rest of us poor suckers. You'd have an excellant point if we were given hints and storylines that the IEs and Dragons were going to ride in and save us all though but luckly even the dragonphiles amongst the devs haven't been quite willing to go that far.

Grinder the only problem with that is that we've already hit many of the milestones in the Scrouge "countdown" far far before they were hit in the Fourth World so I agree with Kagetenshi's timeline of a few decades, which in my opinion is actually a good move on the dev's part as it keeps the Horrors crossing over as just close enough to loom large but far enough away that it doesn't destory the setting that they created.

Also, keep in mind that from AH's site, there's some text talking about how the cycle of magic doesn't necessarily follow from age to age; sometimes it ramps up fast, sometimes slow.

Couple that with those astral bridges created... you have a recipe for connecting the Horrors to our plane much earlier than would be normal.

I agree though, that the Horrors won't be showing up en masse for a while yet. I would NOT be surprised to find out a few powerful ones are able to slink across early and wreak havoc.

[Fuchs]

SR has had an entire campaign as well as a novel trilogy just dealing with stopping the horrors from crossing over. Unless the devs actually say "We buried the ED crossover stuff" I expect that kind of stuff to rear its ugly head again.

[Grinder]

But wasn't that possibility for the Horrors to close the gap between their metaplane and ours closed with Big D's death?

[nezumi]

It was a huge issue in SR2, but with SR3, especially the tail end, it petered out, and Fan Pro basically said they're not touching it (for a number of reasons - wasn't a definite hit with the fans, and there are ip problems). I also doubt Catalyst will do anything with it, except as a hook for a few minor runs and another monster or two.

And in general, having played with knowledge of the horrors for about five or six years now, I never felt it was poor writing or invalidated everything. It's like peak oil or global warming scares now - "if we don't act immediately, everyone will die" sort of threats. Yes, I recognize there is a long-term threat that we all need to work together to address, but that doesn't mean right now I won't continue to vote for the guy who I think will do the best for me, nations won't still wage war for ideological causes or profit, etc. It just means that every event that happens in that vein is a little more dangerous, it costs a little more, because it uses resources that could be used to address the looming death of everyone. It makes things a little more frightening because we need to get everyone on board, and it only takes one or two guys to hold the world hostage.

[Kagetenshi]

Ah, Kagetenshi probably meant a few centuries (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Part of my whole point is that it hardly matters. I don't know what year SR4 is up to now, but even assuming it's 2079, we've taken all the time until now to get through 30 years of canon time. If the Horrors are as little as 50 years away, even assuming they start doing a five-year-time-jump every edition from now odds are on Shadowrun becoming a defunct property before the Gnasher stats make it into a book. I'd draw the line of "worth considering as a serious future plot" at sometime in the next fifteen in-game years, so about that long in the real world as well.

But wasn't that possibility for the Horrors to close the gap between their metaplane and ours closed with Big D's death?

Only if you consider Great Dragons to be all that and a bag of chips (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No, seriously, the possibility was supposed to be closed with Harlequin's Back, and in a rare moment of agreement with Fuch's hostility towards great-dragons-control-the-plot I'm going to say that if the characters weren't able to close it then, Big D probably didn't do much of significance either.

But as Nezumi says, regardless of in-world justifications, the core of the matter right now is that Earthdawn is owned by a different company. Thus, the Horror Breakthrough will occur with little warning shortly after the last canon Shadowrun event to be published ever, and probably not before.

~J

[Wounded Ronin]

Ah, Kagetenshi probably meant a few centuries (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Serioulsy, even though a few milestones, as you call them, on the way to the Scourge had been hit, the coming of the Scourge may be advanced by a few decades or maybe a century or two. But then it is still centuries away - and thus shouldn't bother any SR player (player, not character. Player.).

And you guys will so love Equinox, btw. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Hey, I suppose that someone could make a cool Mad Max style post apocalyptic Shadowrun setting. It would probably use the advanced vehicle combat rules a lot.

[Larme]

The Horrors aren't lazy writing in the sense that Earthdawn, the game universe they were explicitly created for, was designed around the Horrors, the Scourge, and the aftermath. They are a central part of that world that cannot be ignored.

Oh, ok. That makes a lot more sense to me. They were created as part of a primal creation story kind of thing, and they still exist in Shadowrun for the sake of continuity. It wasn't like some writer said, "You know what would be cool? To make all the other fluff irrelevant by creating this new threat that's more scary than a jillion evil corporations." That was my impression from the discussion on Dumpshock, but I'm glad to hear it's not really like that. I agree, nothing they've done in the past leads me to think that they will be dumb enough to obliterate the setting by going "derr, alienses!" at some random point.

[Ravor]

Umm, well actually that isn't totally true, the concept of "The Enemy" as some undefined ancient magical threat from the previous age that was just waiting to ravage the Sith World predates Earthdawn if memory serves.

Of course "The Enemy" wasn't ever truely fleshed out until Earthdawn became the "offically unofical" Fourth World.

[hyzmarca]

Oy, isn't that the one where the IE makes a "magical" cyberdeck using light? I had forgotten that one...

No, its the one where somebody conjures up a Light Spirit that can directly interface with the Matrix. I don't believe there was any actual deck involved.

The optical-magical cyberdeck, I'm pretty sure was an invention of Leonardo in Black Madonna, which is infinitely better than the Da Vinci Code, by the way.


As for the lazy writing issue, that's just uncreative. That's like saying that the Nazis were lazy writing it isn't. It isn't just that they haven't show up yet, which they haven't, meaning that there has yet to have been any writing that could be lazy, it's that a) they aren't this huge unified thread and b) humanity is as humanity does. The Horrors will change the game when they show up, but they won't stop it. They'll just be new players, bunches of new players, most of whom have their own goals and desires. Commerce will continue, so will competition, and some people will form alliances with some Horrors and some Horrors will run for President of the UCAS and gosh darn it they'll probably do a good job of it, too. Bonecrown always had a hug approval rating, far high than that of any mortal politician.

[Grinder]

Hey, I suppose that someone could make a cool Mad Max style post apocalyptic Shadowrun setting. It would probably use the advanced vehicle combat rules a lot.

Stay tuned (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Equinox is a future fantasy game of stunning action, frightening intrigue, and mystical powers, set in the dark future of the war-ravaged Eighth World.

[flowswithdrek]

Cant wait for Equinox, Cant wait to see how Redbrick take the whole horror thing forward.