Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. Options

[Grinder]

The "dark ages" were not as dark as people assume - techology advanced still after the fall of the roman empire. And What I am saying is that even in the few decades since magic returned Shadowrun's mages advanced far, and advance farther still each year - at a pace Earthdawn never had. Knowledge is preading much quicker in the 6th world, allwoing far quicker advancement. In a hundred years the 15ht circle powers will be common metamagics, nothing more.

My guess is that the mana level is not strong/ high enoughi n 100+ years to support high-circle magic. Hell, there aren't any t'skrang in the 6th world now... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Talents are based on research to a degree, agreed, but also on the mana level.

[flowswithdrek]

I'm guessing equinox is going to be using some kind of mass driver to do it.

No No No i think it was brain overload that did it

YAAARRGHHH!!! My brain, it burns!!!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

It may be that Horrors have evolved that they are specialized in a way that is not especially beneficial on Earth. It may be that the last planet the Horrors invaded was full of tasty marshmallow men.

I agree with nezumi on this, to think horrors simply retreat with the ebbing flow of magic and fight it out is a bit short sighted. It’s a big universe out there, when magic ebbs on earth who knows where it floods to. And where magic goes the horrors follow.

[Tymire]

Bah if they last world they ate was full of tasty marshmallow men we shouldn't be worried at all. The world of chocolate puppies or graham cracker hookers will be next on the menu......

PS. haven't read anything on equinox yet, so you're right, having a new asteroid belt where earth used to be does point in a given direction. Though is there enough mass in the Earth to equal an asteroid belt? Hmm must be a pretty tinny one... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

You're seriously arguing that 6th World magical research is supposedly exponentially better at accumulating knowledge about the subject but yet can't even manage to produce Circle 1 spells like Experience Death, Pauper's Purse, Flameweapon, or Plant Talk over 40 years after the Awakening?

~J

More likely: Maybe the magic level isn't high enough. Remember, the book of harrow was discovered what, 1000 years before the kaer's were sealed, and the level of magic didn't drop all the way back to where it was before people went in. Assuming the cycle is symmetrical, that means Earthdawn was ~900-1100 years after awakening magic level wise.

So yeah, over 40 years means 2/3rds of jack shit - or more accurately, at most less than 5% of the way to ED magic levels.

[Fuchs]

When we played SR1/2 and ED1 my impression was that ED's magic was noticably weaker in key points (damage and healing) than ED's magic. I never really got the hype about how magical ED was supposed to be, compared to how powerful magic was in SR2. We had to nerf mages quite a bit to keep the game playable.

[Sixgun_Sage]

YAAARRGHHH!!! My brain, it burns!!!

By your logic, evolution would be impossible because a single individual can't share its experience with its neighbors.

Horrors have the potential of being the best example of open-source warfare.

It may be that Horrors have evolved that they are specialized in a way that is not especially beneficial on Earth. It may be that the last planet the Horrors invaded was full of tasty marshmallow men. But given what's written - that more Horrors are made continuously, and are immediately tested by a lifetime of combat and violence and weeded out based solely on their individual capability, and accepting that this success can be passed on via observation, communication, procreation or another method, Horrors should on the whole be continuously advancing at an extraordinary rate. I would fully expect that the next wave is full of creatures we have never encountered before. The initial wave may not be properly acclimated to eating humans specifically, but then again, they may be.

Except We aren't talking about evolution we are talking about beings that are in fact constructs, all of them where created by Verjisgorm IIRC, and even more importantly it isn't a matter of evolution so much as a matter of expanding upon areas of knowledge and while one Horror may be able to grow their are limited by their own experiental framework which going by all the information we have on the Horrors and their native reality is fairly limited. Add to this that they don't wargame, they don't form think tanks to examine ideas and events... they are powerfull in terms of raw magical ability but not inconcievably so, most of the danger with named Horrors is their ability to manipulate emotions via their actions, which I have discussed elsewhere but suffice it to say I don't find sufficiently daunting to grant the Horrors even a draw.

[Tachi]

Bah if they last world they ate was full of tasty marshmallow men we shouldn't be worried at all. The world of chocolate puppies or graham cracker hookers will be next on the menu......

We cannot allow the world of graham cracker hookers to fall!

*Stand up and raises fist into the air*

We must FIGHT! Stand with me brothers and sisters! The graham cracker hookers MUST BE PRESERVED! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Joe Chummer]

1) If the Great Dragon is not himself Awakened, let's see how fast the Great Dragon pisses itself. Hell, the very fact that the dragon is a magician makes my point for me.

ALL dragons are Awakened, even Great Dragons (pg 303 SR4A: "Dragons are all capable magicians..."), but that's not my point. A dragon could make a snack out of any magician without even resorting to their Sorcery or Conjuring skills. Lofwyr: "You got HOW many hits on your Sorcery Test for that mana spell?" Magician: "Uh, three?" Lofwyr: "Delicious. Now just let me roll my 13 Willpower plus my 20 Mystic Armor and hope I don't glitch. Then, after that tickle, I'll try hitting you with my 50+ dice worth of Strength. *chortle* I believe you may die more than just once."

2) I beg to differ as well. Those precisely are the people I am talking about or have the backing of the people who are Awakened. Magical ability is an edge few mundanes can overcome without the aid of another Awakened.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point, since I stand by my original thesis. Magical ability does not directly translate into fiscal, social, or political power. There are far more burnouts and wagemages wandering the gutters of society as there are Awakened AAA board members. Awakened immortal elves might have a lot of political sway, but that's just because they've been around for thousands of years and have learned how to influence people, which they don't even need magic for, and many of them were kings, queens, or princes in previous mana cycles. People with mindsets like that don't let power get away from them so easily, regardless of whether they have any magical ability or not.

3) As many people keep telling me when I quote RAW, when the GM does or allows something, it is then no longer abuse. However, the actual wording of Divination is intentionally vague, while higher successes will increase how specific the information would be. "Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen," to quote a certain spiritual and temporal master.

I'm guessing you forgot that that particular spiritual and temporal master was so nearsighted he couldn't even foresee his own death by betrayal. Divination always has limits. Besides, if you already know what's going to happen, where's the fun in that?

Also, if a GM is new or doesn't understand a rule very well but the player knows how to work the system, it's still abuse. A player who is far more experienced with a particular game than the current GM can get away with all kinds of stuff simply because the GM doesn't know any better. For example, I've heard horror stories about players using their interpretation of the RAW Chemistry rules to basically fund the whole team's retirement, all because the GM didn't understand the kind of wealth it would generate, but the player knew it all along. This still falls under the umbrella of abuse.

4) A mystic adept created using the same amount of resources can match his full magician brethren, he might even surpass them in certain circumstances. While he might not be able to fully match his physical adept counterpart, he can keep up with them.

Mystic Adept vs. Full Magician or Aspected Magician -- Let's say a newly-created mystic adept has a Magic rating of 6. He dedicates 5 of those points towards the "mystic" part of things and puts the remaining point towards a single Power Point.

Unless he's got an expensive power focus (and the ridiculously high amount of karma it costs to bond said focus), the highest Force he can cast without risking overcasting Drain is a 5. His partner, who is a full magician, also has a Magic of 6 and can cast Force 6 spells without risking overcasting. One extra die can mean the difference between life and death.

Also, mystic adepts can't astrally project at all. In this way they already lose the astral race against their full-magician cousins.

Mystic Adepts vs. Full Adepts -- Continuing with our example, with only one Power Point to spend on adept powers, the only way our mystic adept friend is going to keep up with full adepts is with several levels of magical initiation and opting for an extra Power Point rather than choosing a metamagic. But then again, any full adept starting with 6 Magic (and thus 6 Power Points) and does the same regarding initiation is still going to be far ahead of our mystic adept friend.

[Joe Chummer]

As amused as I am by the thought of defeating mages with fat bacteria, I'm compelled to point out that you want FAB.

(Not FAB bacteria, either, that's what the B is for)

~J

Out of curiosity, I checked the Threats book, and the proper name is indeed "Fat Bacteria Strain III."

I don't know where you got "FAB" from. I can't find a mention of it anywhere in SR4A's uber-index.

[cyronc]

the term FAB origins from MitS (Magic in the Shadows) from SR3 iirc

[Kagetenshi]

Aw man, seriously?

FAB is the term used in MitS, but you're right, there appears to have been some continuity fail.

~J

[Sixgun_Sage]

Aw man, seriously?

FAB is the term used in MitS, but you're right, there appears to have been some continuity fail.

~J

The rate they've been publishing at it's any surprise? Atleast in this instance it is a relatively minor fail.

[nezumi]

More likely: Maybe the magic level isn't high enough. Remember, the book of harrow was discovered what, 1000 years before the kaer's were sealed, and the level of magic didn't drop all the way back to where it was before people went in. Assuming the cycle is symmetrical, that means Earthdawn was ~900-1100 years after awakening magic level wise.

So yeah, over 40 years means 2/3rds of jack shit - or more accurately, at most less than 5% of the way to ED magic levels.

Or the magic level is high enough, but the knowledge level isn't. Several events have occured which have sped up the increase of magic. In ED, they had a long time to master these new arts. In SR, they're moving at lightning speed, but there still always seems to be SOMETHING new to learn. We have definitely not mastered the magic available to us right now, so our skill may indicate crude methods rather than lack of available magic.

Except We aren't talking about evolution we are talking about beings that are in fact constructs, all of them where created by Verjisgorm IIRC,

Darkwing reproduced. The idea that 100% of horrors are constructs has been shown to be false. Meanwhile, even if they are 100% constructs, that implies Intelligent Design - i.e. every creature will be carefully crafted to the situation, and their danger level is exactly matched to Verjigorm's knowledge and skill. And since Verjigorm continues to accrue experience over time, across other worlds, through infinite battling, that implies that is constructs will also be superior. We may assume that the initial contact Verjigorm will not have sufficient information to properly react, but that won't last for long.

and even more importantly it isn't a matter of evolution so much as a matter of expanding upon areas of knowledge and while one Horror may be able to grow their are limited by their own experiental framework which going by all the information we have on the Horrors and their native reality is fairly limited.

Where are you getting this?

Add to this that they don't wargame, they don't form think tanks to examine ideas and events...

No one said otherwise, and you're completely failing to address my point here.

Have you ever read up on how IED technology has been advancing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do you think there are think tanks who just spend time designing these things? Do you think they run war games?

Of course not. Someone makes a device. They set it up. If it's less effective than previous models, he improves on it, or drops it. If it's more successful, he shares the design with similarly minded individuals/groups, strengthening his allies, and therefore, himself. Similarly, other people study exploded or unexploded bombs and copy the design, for their own purposes. John Robb of Global Guerrillas has called this a 'bazaar of ideas'. It's a distributed, non-centralized web of relationships (not all mutual or friendly) by which experience and successful tactics spread quickly across disparate or even directly conflicting groups. There is little reason to assume that any creature able to learn from observed experience could not implement something similar, as long as it's in an environment where different tactics can be used and tested regularly (such as an eternity of combat). If Horrors can self-improve, by generations, by self-modification, etc., the results could be spectacular.

[Tymire]

Add to this that they don't wargame, they don't form think tanks to examine ideas and events...

Hehe sorry just have to laugh at that. So you are saying that people always chose the most effective way of doing things or that politics never comes into account? Man I wish that was true, as an engineer it would make life so simpler. However, people want what they want regardless of cost, efficiency, or any other logical reason. Heck people in general are idiots and trying to get a group moving in one direction without hate (or other strong us vs. them mentality) is just about impossible. Even when people are moving together, rarely is it in a smart manner (see definition of a Mob Mind).

In regards to think tanks, that only really works when everyone has a similar level of experience. Am thinking horrors if they have a culture (that we would recognize) would be more similar to feudal compared to anything else. And when your KING has supreme power and an IQ off the charts what others think really doesn't matter.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Ok, I may be wrong about the nature of horrors on the construct or evolution thing, as I've said I find Earthdawn a bit boring as a setting so I haven't read the sourcebooks extensively. However one thing that has not been disputed is that they are completely lacking in anything resembling culture or cooperation. It has been repeatedly stated in this thread by several posters that they exist on the downcycle purely making war on eachother, this might be an effective model for forced evolution (might, it's also possible such a state is so violent that beneficial traits get eliminated just as quickly as traits that limit survival) but it isn't anywhere near ideal for learning and expanding a set of skills or powers since, due to the nature of Horrors and the arcane powers they use, namely their likely mana warping presence alone they leave effectively no actionable information on the metaphysics (for lack of a better term, if I where an SR mage I'd follow the chaos tradition, sue me) of what they did. You'd have to be there, witnessing the powers use to get anything out of it, and as the higher powers among them all seem to be solitary hunters... Listen, except for a few jokes I've never claimed this would be an easy fight for metahumanity but every point of refferance I've seen about the Horrors and their adaptibility indicates they, well, don't care for it. They're modus operandi as a species seems to be more similar to be that of certain insects that use scouts to find prey or find out if a potential prey is ready than anything else and even the named Horrors are more similar to serial killers with defined pathologies than tacticians and strategists. Compare this to metahumanity, composed of social creatures capable of forming complex responses independantly or as groups, with information age technology that allows such said groups to exchange information as part of a constantly adaptive model. A model that drives technological and metaphysical research at a pace less advanced societies could not come close to matching even on vastly smaller scales... It'll be a hellish fight, we are after all talking about the settings take on the Lovecraftian Old Ones, but as they are written and have been defined in the books and this discussion metahumanity should eventually stand triumphant.

[cyronc]

to Sixgun_Sage: lets consider for a moment that you'd be right about Horror's having no cultures, thus are at a disadvantage compared to Namegivers/Metahumanity (even if i dont think so, but lets suppose you are right)

well who said Horrors NEED to develop themselves, since EVERYTHING Metahumanity can use can be used INDIRECTLY by the Horrors, even if you'd be right about them being unable/hampered in developing stuff themselves...

the Horrors' solution to that problem is simply called corruption/horror marking, and then the subverted individuum can use the Metahuman/Namegiver stuff for the 'Great Cause' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

now more generally some stuff i have been thinking about:

and to add just a tidbit here and there: during the Earthdawn Scourge era Verjigorm cocooned some dragon eggs, and thus corrupted them, one of them now awakened might be the dragon with the corrupted aura from the Aztlan sourcebook (just a example)

and it still isnt sure whether the twisted/corrupted(maybe even the toxic) paths of magic are in fact the first signs of Horror-corrupted Namegivers/Metahumans. (my personnal favourite theory is that Winternight's action between SR3 and SR4 was in fact induced by Cauthronne(spelling?) a Named ED Horror from the second Horror Sourcebook 'Scourge Unending', and that the whole stuff with making technomagical nukes explode at certain geological sites and the whole chaotic 'make-the-world-end' stuff they used (bio-weapons,nano-weapons and others) was used to further advance the bridge between the worlds (creating manaspikes, where crossing over is faster due to higher mana level), and if you read Year of the Comet, there is a group of Awakened advancing the bridge even long after Dunkelzahn/Lethe/Burnout went to keep the bridgebuilders in check after Tayla's struggle with Aztech's Blood Mages (Darke and the Blood Mage Gestalt; Threats 1 and the Dragonheart Trilogy) (they are mentioned in the news articles throughout the book)

cybermancy's astral taint might in fact be a hint at Horror Magic involved here (in Cybyertechnology iirc its indicated that Blood Magician's Cybermancy creates a link to 'somewhere' in the deep metaplanes/netherworlds to offset the drain suffered by the participating mages), thus it may not be an alternative to fighting the Horrors.

since Shedim' and Imps' descriptions both explicitly state them NOT to be free spirits but to be handled in a similar fashion by the rules, i strongly think they might be the first manifestations of minor unnamed Horrors already able to pass through at spikes like f.e. the Dunkelzahn Rift;
heck Gaf of the Aleph society might in fact be a malicious Imp residing in the Book of Gaf and corrupting the burned out mages (even the power by which it 'restores' the burnouts' magic is no big issue if you take ED's thread magic and Horror Mark's in consideration..

also the Ibn Eisa stuff and increased Wraith sightings in the middle east during the 60's strongly hints at the agenda to create pain, suffering and feed off/enjoy it

and to the last point, if you'd counter that those are mere Shadow Free Spirits at the work here, i think we actually have some hints that Shadow Spirits may be nothing more than Horror corrupted Free Spirits (Artificer one of the major Named Horrors is in fact not truely a Horror but a corrupted Free Elemental Spirit, and inherited his Horror powers after the corruption)

back to the discussion, my major point is that if the Horrors would be unable to do something themselves they'll just pick someone to corrupt and do their dirty work for them, and thats why it will take first of all MAJOR willpower by Namgivers/Metahumanity not to succumb to the Horrors, because only if more than half the necessary Manpower can be saved from corruption there is even the slightest opportunity to win a direct confrontation, cus else you might stand against an overwhelming unfriendly mass of Metahumanity/Namegivers giving you a hard time before you can even start with hunting down Horrors

just my thoughts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

ps: looking forward to Equinox...

[Sixgun_Sage]

Well, my statement about their lack of culture is based on the consensus established on what they do during the downcycle Cyronc, and I believe it poses a greater problem for them than what you claim. First off they will lack the proper points of refferance to understand the advances metahumanity has made in tactics, weapons and defensive technology and a whole host of other areas so they'll start off the scourge the same way they always do, trying to deal with mages, elves and dragons the named Horrors will likely realize how dangerous a troll with a minigun and depleted uranium rounds is fairly quickly, but the subtler threat of brain benders like personafixes and mood chips will take longer to deal with because atleast on the surface the person can function with no obvious detriment for extended periods of time and since these screw with the subjects brain chemistry and emotions it is highly likely, atleast in my opinion that the emotion feeding of said named Horrors will at the very least be inhibited if not stopped until said beings figure out a way around that. Then you have things like autohypnotic suggestions and programming, cybernetic and bioware brain modifications and metahuman mind altering magic. Admittadly none of these are fixes, and mind altering magic did exist in the 4th age but likely in a differant form if the changes in other areas are an indication, but they are all factors. Metahumanity is "bigger, better, faster, stronger" in every concievable area whereas going by all information that has been presented the Horrors should be essentially a static-level threat. They have no established social structure which means the transmission of new ideas, techniques and the like is effectively a non-issue amongst Horrors.

[Kagetenshi]

Actually, now that I reread some more of the Earthdawn books, humanity may have screwed itself. We've gotten awesome at research and communication.

Horrors mess up people who learn about them or talk about them. "[I]t is unwise to communicate about a Horror through a messenger", for example.

~J

[Sixgun_Sage]

Actually, now that I reread some more of the Earthdawn books, humanity may have screwed itself. We've gotten awesome at research and communication.

Horrors mess up people who learn about them or talk about them. "[I]t is unwise to communicate about a Horror through a messenger", for example.

~J

Mostly because it calls their attention to you, but if you want that attention and are prepared to "greet" them appropriately...

[cyronc]

there is an exception to that: Nebis a minor but nasty Horror that relies on you calling his name sometimes first and then you simply cant stop calling Nebis anymore. When you Nebis him often enough he Nebis take your body parts and Nebis his own body out of it even if you killed him previously...

just a thought or Nebis...

/damn, gotta check those virus filters again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ravor]

I'd agrue that there is more than one "exception", Horrors such as Taint simply can't be fought and then there is at least one Horror that marks solely on physical objects you might handle.


Also I'm not so sure of the basic premise, if the only danger in studying the Horrors was in drawing their attention then it seems to me that the preface of Earthdawn Horrors wouldn't be written in the manner in which it was.

[underaneonhalo]

Out of curiosity, I checked the Threats book, and the proper name is indeed "Fat Bacteria Strain III."

I don't know where you got "FAB" from. I can't find a mention of it anywhere in SR4A's uber-index.

Page 126-127 of street magic and page 65 of Arsenal discuss FAB I-III.

You couldn't find it because it's listed in the SR4A index under Fluorescing Astral Bacteria.

[Joe Chummer]

Page 126-127 of street magic and page 65 of Arsenal discuss FAB I-III.

You couldn't find it because it's listed in the SR4A index under Fluorescing Astral Bacteria.

Huh. I guess I didn't realize the two were the same thing (or at least, FAB III and Fat Bacteria Strain III are the same, anyways). Wonder why/when they changed the name? "Strain III" always had an ominous ring to it.

Also, I still have no idea what "fat bacteria" is. The Threats book said the lab in question was trying to "reverse-engineer Ares Fat Bacteria," but the only real-world reference I can find for "fat bacteria" was an article or two about bacteria that live in the intestinal tract and can be partially responsible for a person's obesity. However, the article I saw talking about "fat (or obesity) bacteria" was dated 2006, and Threats has been around since 1996. Did Shadowrun successfully predict the future, albeit a mundane one?

[Kagetenshi]

If I had to guess I'd say that "Fat bacteria" was chosen to be vague and ominously simple. FAB was probably a back-formation when they decided to introduce the other strains and decided they didn't want to explain the name.

This is all with a very vague memory of the timeline of introductions, etc., though.

~J

[cyronc]

afaik FAB originally was short for Fat Astral Bacteria or Fat Awakened Bacteria, gotta check my books though to be sure