Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. Options

[Joe Chummer]

afaik FAB originally was short for Fat Astral Bacteria or Fat Awakened Bacteria, gotta check my books though to be sure

"Strain III" was first mentioned in Threats, published in 1996, and its full name was "Fat Bacteria Strain III." A some point between then and now, it was renamed FAB III, which is short for Fluorescing Astral Bacteria Strain III, and strains I and II were also introduced. FAB III isn't true bacteria in the sense that it acts more like an astral entity than a bacteria, since it only exists on the astral plane and it searches for magically active objects, sustained/quickened spells, spirits, dual-natured beings, magicians, or anything else with an astral presence that it can feed off of. In a sense it's more like a disembodied astral vampire than anything else, only it feeds on Force and Magic rather than Essence, and when it gets powerful enough, it splits apart and goes separate ways.

[Wounded Ronin]

It just occurred to me that they should do a Battletech vs. Horrors campaign setting. It would be like Wh40K, but less British.

[toturi]

It just occurred to me that they should do a Battletech vs. Horrors campaign setting. It would be like Wh40K, but less British.

Merry Christmas to you too, motherfragger. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[nezumi]

I'd play it! ALthough really, why not make it Battlerun to match up with the run we already have written?

[nezumi]

On the first age of cthulhumas my beloved gave to me, a gnasher in a pear tree...

[TheWanderingJewe...]

After Perusing the Horror Book and Re-reading Aztlan....I think Verjigorm (sp?) is the thing being fed by all the Blood Sacrifice in Aztlan.....which leads to all sorts of nasty implications

[Sixgun_Sage]

After Perusing the Horror Book and Re-reading Aztlan....I think Verjigorm (sp?) is the thing being fed by all the Blood Sacrifice in Aztlan.....which leads to all sorts of nasty implications

Big V had more selective tastes IIRC, and for him to interact with the material plane of reality things wouldn't be in question about if there are horrors, they'd be snacking on people in the evening news... or getting blown to bits by all those amoral gun nuts in the SR world that finally have a socially acceptable target for their .50 cal.

[karolusb]

Firstly: We could build defences at the bridge in the metaplanes... That could probably stop the first wave. The horror Verjigorm is supposedly the one who created the Horrors, and according to dragon myth he, and all of the other horrors, had their asses simultaniously smacked into the metaplanes by a single being known as Nightwing.

Firstly, it would help if our all of our million cloned & born as 100th-grade genetically-engineered initiates could whip-up another nightwing or two using ritual sorcery.

Secondly, If a single being (of non-infinite power) can defeat all of the horrors, there theoretically cannot be an infinite number of them.

Verjigorm creates the horrors, so if he is defeated the flow of horrors would stop.

Even Verjigorm cannot break a kaer easily, if he could then theoretically all of the kaers would have fallen.

This means that wards and the like can stop him.

This means that wards and the like can trap him.

Just some thaughts.

Going from memory (and a bit of logic).

1 How do we build such defenses? Regardless this isn't winning, it's averting a fight (which I think would be our best solution, but not the same thing).

1 (again sorta) We have no evidence that people can be born or created with greater magical powers than is normal. There may someday be in the womb initiation, but there may not (the rules and flavor both lean towards not).

2 I am ok with not an infinite number.

3 How would you defeat verjigorm?

4 Verjigorm didn't enter the world in the last scourge. We have no knowledge of his ability to break a kaer. Nor do we know with certainty any of the rest (is he the creator, is he still responsible for creation etc.)


Instinctively I would fall on the we could win side, but . . .

War with the horrors would be extremely asymmetrical. The stupid ones would appear out of thin air in the mall, and kill dozens or hundreds of civilians before they were put down. The smart ones would take over influential people, gain control of strategic and military assets. Nukes would not be our salvation, they would be our downfall. The horrors and humanity drawing up into neat battle lines and march slowly at each other ala civil war era tactics would favor us nicely, sadly it won't happen that way.

Horrors would be immune to nukes. In cannon (Bug City) and 2nd edition rules spirits would not be directly effected by nukes (or drones, or anything else that lacks willpower). 4th edition rules don't support this, but 4th edition rules are a lot less well thought out or comprehensive (but potentially more balanced) in comparison to previous rules, for evidence see the thread on whether spirits are effected by nuerostun et. al..

While the horrors presumably are not infinite in number, we don't know the rate at which they replenish losses, or what their numbers are. Many and infinite might as well be the same thing in this scenario.

Fab etc would be good solutions, but would they be good enough? Specifically would they be fast enough to prevent morale collapse? I am not convinced. I am also not convinced of SR humanities ability to form together as a single war machine to fight an enemy, we are a very balkanized people in the dark future.

All of this comes down to a war that would be disastrous in terms of morale. We couldn't maintain the war effort for any relevant amount of time before the civilian back would break. Taking to the stars is just another version of kaers, it would work, but to me it counts as hiding. Given the technology we would leave the horror when we went into hiding it is unlikely warded underground holes would work, so the stars would be the solution.

Alternatives could include bleeding off the mana level so that the horrors don't emerge, guarding the bridge etc. But again none of these are winning an open conflict, I suspect preventing a conflict is the best we can hope for.

(Of course prevention elements would make much better SR plots than the war angle. You know what I liked about earthdawn, and I think what the goal was? It was DnD with logic. Massive underground complexes are filled with loot and hideous incomprehensible monsters, your job is to kick in the door and take the loot. The beholder (and many other d&d monsters) are mega stupid. But if the beholder was a horror? Suddenly it seems sensible, I find myself accepting in ED things that would rub me raw in D&D. So as some folks have pointed out the horrors were a literary element, unless the point of the story is the extinction of mankind, it won't happen that way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

[Tanegar]

Remember, children: thread necromancy is bad.

[CollateralDynamo]

How can we possibly "beatt he Horrors" when we can't even beat this thread!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Edit: Ninja'd by Tanegar

[karolusb]

Remember, children: thread necromancy is bad.

Hehe, sorry, didn't even look at the date.

[Wounded Ronin]

This thread is such a classic I don't mind. It's second only to Creepwoodrun.

Actually Creepwoodrun could be a Cthulu like "mod" of Shadowrun complete with horrors. Every time you lost SAN there'd be a chance you pee your pants we'd have to roll for.

[Sixgun_Sage]

I've made my points about this in the past, even the so called "intelligent" horrors seem to be... locked into a behavior pattern whereas humans are the ultimate in adaptivity because we've transcended adapting through purely brute physical means, we develop complex tools both physical and mental to examine and then overcome.

[nezumi]

Remember, children: thread necromancy is bad.

Why?

I've made my points about this in the past, even the so called "intelligent" horrors seem to be... locked into a behavior pattern whereas humans are the ultimate in adaptivity because we've transcended adapting through purely brute physical means, we develop complex tools both physical and mental to examine and then overcome.

Seems moot - the difference between a static form able to adapt to any of an infinite number of behaviors vs. an infinite variety of forms each statically caught in a single behavior.

For example, imagine there's a matrix horror. We wouldn't know about it because this would be the first time in our experience that its niche is available to it. It may have existed for a billion years previously, but as far as we're concerned it's new, and it will happily jack our drek up. It will also move books, which tells me it seems pretty likely.

[Sixgun_Sage]

For example, imagine there's a matrix horror. We wouldn't know about it because this would be the first time in our experience that its niche is available to it. It may have existed for a billion years previously, but as far as we're concerned it's new, and it will happily jack our drek up. It will also move books, which tells me it seems pretty likely.

Except how would it have survived all this time without a matrix to provide it a food source? it has no niche previously so why would it come into existence and if you accept the argument that they don't evolve then a Matrix Horror is a non-issue, it simply cannot reasonably exist. Then there is the "infinite number" argument, I'll accept there being a number of horrors so large that to the human mind it is indistinguishable from infinite, after all, human brains start dissociating after numbers in the low thousands, but an infinite number of horrors, each with it's own specialization is ludicrous in that with infinite specialization of form and function there would have to be Horrors that exist independent of the mana cycle or perhaps feeds solely on it's own kind, such is not in evidence to the best of my knowledge so there must be a limit on the numbers of the Horrors that has yet to be discovered, this is before we get into arguments over their methods of generation and the obvious restrictions time places on such. Simply put it is a logical impossibility to state that while Horrors are individually static in methodology their numbers are infinite and therefor a Horror exists for every situation.

I'm really tempted to reiterate my comparison of these beasties to a certain Mr. Kreuger.

[Banaticus]

If there are horrors able to manifest in the Matrix, then there should be horrors able to manifest in the meta and astral planes.

[Vermithrax]

I believe this thread illustrates why the Horrors can't be beaten. Just when we think it's finally dead, it pops back up when you least expect it. Mwahaha. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[HappyDaze]

Except how would it have survived all this time without a matrix to provide it a food source? it has no niche previously so why would it come into existence and if you accept the argument that they don't evolve then a Matrix Horror is a non-issue, it simply cannot reasonably exist.

Isn't it possible that such Horrors may have invaded other worlds before and only now find our world palatable? SR may in fact have multiple realities of which the baseline SR material is only one. The Horrors may bridge to others too.

[toturi]

I believe this thread illustrates why the Horrors can't be beaten. Just when we think it's finally dead, it pops back up when you least expect it. Mwahaha. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

I believe the opposite. Just when the Horrors think it is safe to pop up again, the metahumans beat them down again. It is good that the Horrors keep popping back up, it simply means metahumans have entertainment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Isn't it possible that such Horrors may have invaded other worlds before and only now find our world palatable? SR may in fact have multiple realities of which the baseline SR material is only one. The Horrors may bridge to others too.

Now, That is just Crazy Talk..... I hope...

Keep the Faith

[TheWanderingJewe...]

Just one of the Prime Horrors would be a nightmare in shadowrun if it could access modern Telecom.... Azzvat Many Eyes able to play in the matrix (shudder)

[Hagga]

Big V had more selective tastes IIRC, and for him to interact with the material plane of reality things wouldn't be in question about if there are horrors, they'd be snacking on people in the evening news... or getting blown to bits by all those amoral gun nuts in the SR world that finally have a socially acceptable target for their .50 cal.

"Tonight, stocks fall 5% as Saeder Krupp takes a blow in the biodrone market. Verjigorm, the Great Hunter, strikes again, eating his third city in two weeks. Should we send him a sternly worded letter? Try our matrix poll."

[nezumi]

Except how would it have survived all this time without a matrix to provide it a food source?

Like HappyDaze said:
1) You assume there is no matrix-analogue in Horrorville (which I doubt you have any evidence for)
2) You assume that none of the other planes the horrors have access to have something like the matrix

Keep in mind, ALL of the documented horrors need a food source. That means they have to be SOMEWHERE eating when they aren't doing it here. Since no book really says anything about what that "Somewhere" is like (except that it's horrible), speculating on what is or isn't possible there is necessarily ungrounded.

Then there is the "infinite number" argument, I'll accept there being a number of horrors so large that to the human mind it is indistinguishable from infinite,

That was my intention - I was using rhetoric (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just like humans can't actually adapt to an infinite number of behaviors.

there would have to be Horrors that exist independent of the mana cycle or perhaps feeds solely on it's own kind,

1) "there would have to be" is flawed logic. There is an infinite set of numbers between 0 and 1. That doesn't mean that any of them are greater than 1.

2) It has been suggested that there are horrors that feed only on their own kind, and one could argue that the namegivers themselves share horror blood. Keep in mind that dragons are from Horror stock, and listening to them, dragons created humans. There's no reason to suspect there are no horrors not tied to mana cycles because, keep in mind, if there were, we wouldn't recognize them as horrors any more. They aren't alien if they're already here, living among us, having settled into niches in the ecosystem.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Technical issues, no quote for Nezumi but here goes.... In point of fact one CAN assume that there isn't a matrix analog the horrors had access to upon generation because the Matrix is an artificial system and since the horrors came first and have no defined culture of cooperation beyond swarm tactics, they could not have developed such. In all the fictional history having to deal with Horrors it states that they where created before the rest of reality, they are the first from before time was time and so on and so forth. They predate the Matrix and unless they can evolve then they have no means of interacting therewith that brings their powers to bear. Possible some of them might learn to apply their standard tactics through a technomancer proxy but even that is a low probability even.

As to the trade in rhetoric, ok, I see your point, but bear in mind that we know at what point human brains start shutting down and numbers become indistinquishable from infinite but those are still several orders of magnitude simpler than modelling an event that destroys humanity.

As to the last set of points, well I believe they aren't very good points to argue. You previously argued that while each individual Horror may be defined by a set of recognizable traits, such as powers and methodology that horrors as a species are infinitely diverse, I was pointing out that for them to be infinitely diverse there would have to be examples of what I stated and such does not exist in the material on the species in question.

I have not once said a war with the Horrors would be easy, unless I was deliberately being flippant, it would quite literally be hell on earth but all the material I have seen and the arguments in this thread point, atleast in my opinion, to humanity eventually kicking the ever loving crap out of the big bad beasties because humanity is a cooperative, adaptive species whereas the horrors are only cooperative in the most rudimentary meaning of the word and are not at all adaptive.

[Wounded Ronin]

Oh, hey, did y'all play Clive Barker's Jericho? That's a bit like this thread.


IMHO 5.56 NATO cartridges should do more damage to Clive Barker monstrosities than is portrayed in that game. Rifles are really awesome compared to swords, really.