Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. Options

[TheWanderingJewe...]

We never really have found out what the Dissonance within the Matrix is.....

[Grinder]

If there are horrors able to manifest in the Matrix, then there should be horrors able to manifest in the meta and astral planes.

Horrors are inhabitants of the astral planes, dude. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stahlseele]

The only way any kind of spirit could enter the Matrix would be to make a spirit out of light and to point him at an open fibre optical port.
And then he would enter the matrix, rush through, and come out somewhere again. And in the meanwhile delete every last little bit of data in there.

[nezumi]

In point of fact one CAN assume that there isn't a matrix analog the horrors had access to upon generation because the Matrix is an artificial system and since the horrors came first and have no defined culture of cooperation beyond swarm tactics, they could not have developed such.

There seems to be a common assumption that a horror that infests the matrix does so because it is some sort of a computer program analogue/usb-compatible, facebook eating child predator. There's also the assumption that if any horror occupies a niche, that that same niche must have existed back in horrorville (so dread iotas are proof that there is water in horrorville, Joi proves there are people, and also personal property, etc.)

I question both of those. It could be back in horrorville, Dread Iotas just float in zero gravity, that they need bouyancy from the water, not the water itself. Perhaps our matrixmonster has been hanging out in the Avatar universe, infecting world trees and pretty blue girls with fiber optic pony tails.


More importantly, I question whether the matrixmonster might just prove to be a more conventional monster which has found a new niche to inhabit. Perhaps a monster which benefits each time a particular image is viewed (a Rickroll beast, perhaps), or one which drives a group to constantly outdo each other in depravity, causing moral destruction to themselves and moral anguish to those around (a 4chanosaur). Something that perhaps seeks to join separate minds together, like bone crown but based on amassing intellect rather than allegiance. These creatures are certainly conceivable - and each one of them would find the matrix a tasty delicacy just waiting to be exploited.

As to the last set of points, well I believe they aren't very good points to argue. You previously argued that while each individual Horror may be defined by a set of recognizable traits, such as powers and methodology that horrors as a species are infinitely diverse, I was pointing out that for them to be infinitely diverse there would have to be examples of what I stated and such does not exist in the material on the species in question.

That argument also doesn't work. For instance, I have an infinite set of n*2. Show me an odd number in that set (or a negative number). That these numbers are not included does not mean my set is not infinite. Really, your argument seems to be, "well you don't have any RED ones, so clearly it isn't infinite". That doesn't work.

I have not once said a war with the Horrors would be easy, unless I was deliberately being flippant, it would quite literally be hell on earth but all the material I have seen and the arguments in this thread point, atleast in my opinion, to humanity eventually kicking the ever loving crap out of the big bad beasties because humanity is a cooperative, adaptive species whereas the horrors are only cooperative in the most rudimentary meaning of the word and are not at all adaptive.

Never said otherwise. I still haven't voted on this issue. I'm just questioning the assumptions that the matrix would somehow be safe.

[TheWanderingJewe...]

It's could be a Horror in the matrix.....or something else.....like a really nasty AI that is part of the Net that even Deus couldn't deal with and the other AIs aren't aware off.....just sayin' that we've never found out just what is in the Grid

[IKerensky]

The humanity will win.

But not the next time they return.

Given the current thread among the SR powers that are aware of the Horrors coming the meta-humanity and dragons will probably produce a united front.

Given the progress of magic and technology it is more than possible they will achieve a way to deliver a auto-replicating astral-powered-nanite's bomb to the horrors native netherworld and simply eradicate them before they can enter our own world. As the Technomancer have shown, the way to go is the mix of magic and technology. Something the horrors cant do before they are lacking the physical component on their home-world.

As the last novels have shown the fight wont occur on our soil this time. The fight will be all in the astral and more than probably in a super astral-matrix gaïa sized.

As the level of magic will raise it is evident that the Matrix will be revealed to be a Pattern and become magic imbued with the life-force of every connected meta-human. Taping from this kind of power will be far more enough to reach the horror Netherworld and deliver them large blow before they can come across fully.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The humanity will win.

But not the next time they return.

Given the current thread among the SR powers that are aware of the Horrors coming the meta-humanity and dragons will probably produce a united front.

Given the progress of magic and technology it is more than possible they will achieve a way to deliver a auto-replicating astral-powered-nanite's bomb to the horrors native netherworld and simply eradicate them before they can enter our own world. As the Technomancer have shown, the way to go is the mix of magic and technology. Something the horrors cant do before they are lacking the physical component on their home-world.

As the last novels have shown the fight wont occur on our soil this time. The fight will be all in the astral and more than probably in a super astral-matrix gaïa sized.

As the level of magic will raise it is evident that the Matrix will be revealed to be a Pattern and become magic imbued with the life-force of every connected meta-human. Taping from this kind of power will be far more enough to reach the horror Netherworld and deliver them large blow before they can come across fully.

That sounds incredibly optimistic...

Keep the Faith

[Cheops]

Considering how much trouble my Initiate Grade 10 Earthdawn Adepts (including 2 physmages -- 1 of which can Summon) just had with 1 single bloatform in a straight up fight (no skullduggery or secret marks) I'd say that the horrors win. Pretty tough to oppose something when you can't spend Edge anymore and everytime you disobey it's order you take unresistable damage. On the bright side, the reward from Thought Worm is meaningless in ED but in SR it would still be pretty hefty so even more people would obey their Horror overlords!

[sabs]

To Be fair.. your 10th Circle Adepts did not have access to OR6+ drones and vehicles.

I think it could make for a very interesting game though.

Shadowrun 4076:
They're Heeeere.

The Gaia Sphere
The Matrix Sphere
2000 years of tech.
2000 Years of recapturing the Magical skills of Earthdawn.

Did we manage to colonize some of the planets in our solar system.
Has the magic levels risen high enough that Magic works in space? Or at least partially.

What does the culture look like.
I think you could have a fun game.

[Stahlseele]

It DOES work in space, when you can overcome the Level 12 Mana Shallow.

[Sixgun_Sage]

It DOES work in space, when you can overcome the Level 12 Mana Shallow.

Which will recede further from earth as the mana level recedes. I'm not to worried about an enemy with a static methodology like the Horrors, they are tooled up for a fight with metahumans reliant on magic for all their needs and that considers the cavalry charge supplemented by formed ranks of archers the end all be all of warfare. The Horrors are in for many very pinful, oft times fatal, surprises.

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, as I was saying in the other thread, I doubt that any of the Horrors have ever had Thor shots land on their head.

Mankind isn't the same squishy primitive race that the Horrors remember from the past.

It'd probably be a pretty close fight, even so, but if some of the great dragons think it's possible this time around, I tend to think the Horrors are in for a shock.



-k

[Dahrken]

Do they think it's possible to beat them, or do they think it's possible to survive them in better conditions ? Evidences are pretty scarce to do more than wild guesses about that...

[Sixgun_Sage]

Do they thionk it's possible to beat them, or do they think it's possible to survive them in better conditions ? Evidences are pretty scarce to do more than wild guesses about that...

Even if they think it is possible to survive look at the psychology of the great dragons, as shocking as this may seem, when you consider their available powers they are to greater and lesser degrees conservative planners. You tend to see this same sort of aversion to risk in people with vast amounts of political or financial power, they start hoarding that power and diverting the majority of their efforts to protecting instead of increasing their influence. To be blunt, the big scaly bastards are low balling humanity against a worst case scenario.

[Stahlseele]

Wonder how the Horrors would like our modern counterparts . . toxics should not have been there way back then, seeing how they simply did not HAVE anything like modern chemicals and nukular power . . Twisted i will give them, yes, but not toxics.
Let's send some Radiation Spirits at them. "Go hug him sparky"
And how would Horrors react to the horrors Humans have done to themselves via Cyber/Bio/Gen/Nano?
Or to Laser/Sound-Weapons and 'Splosives?
When all else fails, NUKE IT FROM ORBIT, IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO BE SURE!
Instant Background-Count and Megatons of Damage.

[KarmaInferno]

Even if they think it is possible to survive look at the psychology of the great dragons, as shocking as this may seem, when you consider their available powers they are to greater and lesser degrees conservative planners. You tend to see this same sort of aversion to risk in people with vast amounts of political or financial power, they start hoarding that power and diverting the majority of their efforts to protecting instead of increasing their influence. To be blunt, the big scaly bastards are low balling humanity against a worst case scenario.

To be fair even Dunkie was hoping for another couple hundred years of guiding and shaping humanity to prepare for the Horrors.

The mana bridge kinda interrupted his plans, though.



-k

[sabs]

I was assuming that the destroy the planet to save it option was.. going to be reserved for we've all lost sort of deal.

Dragons cannot leave Earth, they'd not be thrilled with that concept.
Neither can all sorts of meta-sapients

[TommyTwoToes]

Yeah, as I was saying in the other thread, I doubt that any of the Horrors have ever had Thor shots land on their head.

Mankind isn't the same squishy primitive race that the Horrors remember from the past.

It'd probably be a pretty close fight, even so, but if some of the great dragons think it's possible this time around, I tend to think the Horrors are in for a shock.



-k

Can you use Astral Gateway to make the Thor shot dual-natured. If it was, would it bypass ITNW?
What would a dual-natured nuke do to the mana environment?

[Sixgun_Sage]

To be fair even Dunkie was hoping for another couple hundred years of guiding and shaping humanity to prepare for the Horrors.

The mana bridge kinda interrupted his plans, though.



-k

Speaks to my point, look at Dunk's will, dude was playing penny ante games when compared to his resources and he was one of the bigger risk takers of his species. If the GD's and IE's got off their collective backsides this figt would be downright unfair to the big bad boogeymen.

[KarmaInferno]

Can you use Astral Gateway to make the Thor shot dual-natured. If it was, would it bypass ITNW?
What would a dual-natured nuke do to the mana environment?

That makes for an interesting question.

Remember the Cermak nuclear blast? How it had a devastating effect on the astral but somehow didn't do much on the physical plane?

What if someone Astral Gateway'd a nuke?



-k

[Stahlseele]

it did not have much of a physical impact, because the queens were doing a great ritual shield spell.
but the nuke went boom on THEIR side of the shield.

[pbangarth]

If humanity has undergone thousands of years of evolution (cultural, technological and to a small extent physical), who is to say the Horrors have not also evolved?

[Doc Chase]

If humanity has undergone thousands of years of evolution (cultural, technological and to a small extent physical), who is to say the Horrors have not also evolved?

Why do they raid the physical plane from their home, deep within the Nevernever?

Riches? Ideology? Food? Jollies?

I have a hard time believing they would still need to raid Earth if they could evolve. It's a dreadfully hard place for them to get to, their time there is finite, and chances are everyone's gone hiding anyway sothey've got to work their butts off to get what they want out of it. They'd get a lot more productivity out of growing mushrooms.

[pbangarth]

Why do they raid the physical plane from their home, deep within the Nevernever?

Riches? Ideology? Food? Jollies?

I have a hard time believing they would still need to raid Earth if they could evolve. It's a dreadfully hard place for them to get to, their time there is finite, and chances are everyone's gone hiding anyway sothey've got to work their butts off to get what they want out of it. They'd get a lot more productivity out of growing mushrooms.

Why do guys with big guns and bank accounts fly up to the arctic to shoot polar bears? They could stay home and shoot the neighbours.

[Wounded Ronin]

Why do guys with big guns and bank accounts fly up to the arctic to shoot polar bears? They could stay home and shoot the neighbours.

But what happens if all of a sudden the polar bears have winter camo, level 4 body armor, and AW sniper rifles?