Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. Options

[toturi]

For someone not steeped in the lore of Earthdawn, could you explain why the rigger cannot be taken over by the horror?

Could you explain how the rigger can be taken over without being able to take (by anyone) any defensive measures using Shadowrun lore, since this is a Shadowrun forum and not an Earthdawn one?

[Neurosis]

it didn't take dragons long to become very familiar with the modern world and basically take it over or become major players in it.

Some of the Horrors are smarter and more powerful then dragons, so I don't imagine the horrors will have much trouble adapting to our modern world very quickly. And if they have magic and special abilities that allow them to read peoples minds, etc... they could learn all they need to know about the modern world in a matter on minutes once they cross over.

But it is such a long way off, if humanity knew they were coming and could hold up in Kerns, well by that time, fully automated and armed AI robots could be roaming around fighting off the horrors while humanity hid. Not giving the Horrors any victims to control or mind read, etc...

I guess it really depends on what the Horror's intelligence network is like in the current era. If they have spies already informing them of what is going on and to keep informing them over the years then when they finally do arrive here, they will already know all they need to know and might already have agents in place across the globe.

Exactly.

Hell, how do you know that the Matrix is not ITSELF a horror.

Maybe that is what the Resonance/Dissonance is. Maybe that is what Technomancers REALLY are.

That is the scale they work on.

This is not Godzilla we are talking about. It is cthulhu, hastur, and nylathahotep. And you can't kill it with a gun.

(Note, that I voted yes. But I still am staggered by the amount of people who seem to think that it will be trivial, or easy, or anything less than extinction event level catastrophe for the metahuman race.)

[Marcus]

hehe your talk to forum full of awesome gamers. An audience which isn't generally famous for the concept that monster unspeakable or otherwise can over come them. When you think about it, how many players here wouldn't love to put together their ultimate team and take a shot at a Great Dragon? This logical just goes further when you extend that to the Horrors, I'd be the first to sign up, for the Lets nuke the horror back to their home dimension club. Yes I know that not how the horrors would fight, and i know that it wouldn't be easy, but our genetics really won't let us pick the 2nd option, at least not as a whole.

[Neurosis]

Well, Shadowrun is a great universe because it is an 'anything can die' universe. Great Dragons are hard to kill not because of their immense personal power, but because of their intelligence and ability to avoid disadvantageous situations. But even Great Dragons can die with the right circumstances and enough firepower.

The Enemy/The Horrors are a great threat because they bypass this 'anyone can die' aspect beautifully.

[toturi]

Well, Shadowrun is a great universe because it is an 'anything can die' universe. Great Dragons are hard to kill not because of their immense personal power, but because of their intelligence and ability to avoid disadvantageous situations. But even Great Dragons can die with the right circumstances and enough firepower.

The Enemy/The Horrors are a great threat because they bypass this 'anyone can die' aspect beautifully.

Why would that be?

It should precisely because Shadowrun is an 'anything can die' universe' that should the Horrors come into the Shadowrun universe they can also die. If the Horrors in SR can bypass this aspect, then Shadowrun loses what makes it such a great universe.

[Grinder]

The Enemy/The Horrors are a great threat because they bypass this 'anyone can die' aspect beautifully.

Horrors can be killed. They are not immune to normal weapons, they are not immune to magic - both proven in Earthdawn/ the 4th World. It's unlikely that this will change in the 6th World.

[sabs]

Horrors can be killed, they're just insidious and tough to kill.

The physical horrors are actually much easier to kill. Those would be fairly easy to fight with drones.
But the Thoughworms, wormskulls, and all the other bad ass horrors. It would be really really bad.

In 2000 years.. we'll have made prodigious strides forward in marrying magic and technology. We might have dual natured bullets, and Alchemical Drones controlled by Riggers in special alchemical cocoons that allow them to control the Drone AND use it to cast spells. We have after all 2000 years.

But it's certainly going to be ugly and if 25% of the human population survives.. I'll be impressed.

[Blade]

I stick to my statement that metahumanity doesn't need puny Horrors to destroy itself.

[KarmaInferno]

(Note, that I voted yes. But I still am staggered by the amount of people who seem to think that it will be trivial, or easy, or anything less than extinction event level catastrophe for the metahuman race.)

Er, I haven't seen anyone say that it will be easy. Just that it might be possible.



-k

[nezumi]

Could you explain how the rigger can be taken over without being able to take (by anyone) any defensive measures using Shadowrun lore, since this is a Shadowrun forum and not an Earthdawn one?

The rules haven't been written yet. You may as well sit in 1st edition and ask how a metahuman can metamorphisize into a giant insect, or how a spirit can possess a dead body.

I think the Neurosis's point may have been not that we can't kill a single horror, but that because there are so many, we can't kill ALL the horrors. So it's not a battle we can win by racking up the biggest body count, but by making ourselves inaccessible and biding our time.

[pbangarth]

Could you explain how the rigger can be taken over without being able to take (by anyone) any defensive measures using Shadowrun lore, since this is a Shadowrun forum and not an Earthdawn one?

I don't know the Horrors from a hole in the ground. Many posts in this thread, including the one which I was quoting above, appear to be using knowledge from that other game (which I have never played) to describe effects expected to happen in this game's future. I wasn't challenging the other poster. I was attempting to glean information.

[Cheops]

Can SR characters use SR means to protect themselves against individual Horrors? Yes.

Can the SR world survive without having to hide in Kaers for 400 years while the Scourge rages? No.

Will society stand a better chance of remaining intact after 400 years of being in a Kaer? Unknown, but the Matrix sure helps.

So again, to those that voted Yes: What is your victory condition? Avoiding the kaers? Society staying intact? What is the acceptable post-Scourge population level for you to call it a victory?

[Sixgun_Sage]

Can the SR world survive without having to hide in Kaers for 400 years while the Scourge rages? No.

Why not? I see alot made of the psychological aspects of the Horrors but they scare me less than the pure physical ones. Wanna know why? I've see what peole can do to control mental illness firsthand. Psychology is a whole differant game than when the Horrors where around because now we know a vast amount more about how our minds work and some people actually use those tools to examine themselves, to make something more of their mind.

To be blunt the psychological Horrors really aren't the threat they where in the 4th world. They are Freddy, and like the girl sad inthe last movie "welcome to my world, bitch."

[KarmaInferno]

What is the acceptable post-Scourge population level for you to call it a victory?

Humanity survives. Enough to begin again. Enough to rebuild.

The Horrors don't.




-k

[Doc Chase]

Humanity survives. Enough to begin again. Enough to rebuild.

The Horrors don't.




-k

We also have increasingly terrible weapons of war. What if a weapon were developed that could breach the metaplanes and impact on their home plane? There's already dual-natured biotoxins...what would it take to go that extra step?

The dragons seem to think we'll be taking the fight to them sooner or later - truly, what if you could send a nuke through the astral to glass their house? Hit 'um with DDT?

[Neurosis]

Horrors can be killed. They are not immune to normal weapons, they are not immune to magic - both proven in Earthdawn/ the 4th World. It's unlikely that this will change in the 6th World.

I don't know that much about Earthdawn. Specifically, I don't know anything about its crunch or how you would apply it to Shadowrun.

The general impression I've gotten from the FLUFF, however--which to me is quite important--is that the Horrors are bad enough dudes to have Dunkelzahn and Harlequin practically drekking themselves.

I'm not saying I get the impression that 'every individual Horror is unkillable'.

I do get the impression that the Horrors, as a whole, are unkillable. Perhaps we can survive, but I very much doubt we're going to kick their asses. More likely, we'll barely scrape by.

Like I said, in terms of the fluff they come off as more Cthulhu than Godzilla.

Can the SR world survive without having to hide in Kaers for 400 years while the Scourge rages? No.

[Kagetenshi]

Cthulhu was a wimp, he got taken down with a single steamship. More like Nyarlathotep or Yog-Sothoth.

~J

[Cheops]

There's already dual-natured biotoxins...what would it take to go that extra step?

Ugh. Horror corrupted biotoxins. That's a horrible thought. I could see Ristul or Taint having a field day with that. Although I will point out that Dread Iotas are pretty much already this.

[Blastula]

The Horrors are like Michael Jordan in his prime. You can't stop them, you can only hope to contain them.

[CanRay]

The Horrors are like Michael Jordan in his prime.

Before, or after he turned into a White Guy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

Got the wrong MJ there, I think.

~J

[Wounded Ronin]

Y'all should make a Horrors vs. Civilization mod for Civ 5.

[toturi]

Got the wrong MJ there, I think.

~J

Mary Jane, Michael Jordan, Micheal Jackson, Magic Johnson... they're all the same.

Ugh. Horror corrupted biotoxins. That's a horrible thought. I could see Ristul or Taint having a field day with that. Although I will point out that Dread Iotas are pretty much already this.

Human reengineered Horror-specific Horror corrupted biotoxins. Works only on Horrors.

[cndblank]

The Horrors are like Michael Jordan in his prime. You can't stop them, you can only hope to contain them.

OK, The Horrors are like a team of Michael Jordans at the top of their game, referred to henceforth Team MJ, playing an all dwarf team.

OK, given just the advantages in reach, stride, and jumping a team of six foot 4 inch individuals would have over a team that was 4 foot max and all other thing being equal, the only question is how far is Team MJ is going to run up the score.


Even with Team MJ being a bunch of ball hogging prima donnas having zero team work (cause they are immortal horrors who never needed to have any team work), I doubt the dwarf team would even get on the score board.


Now image the same two teams meeting only the dwarf team comes roaring out of the locker room wearing 12' tall cybernetic-ally controlled exoskeleton suits with Smart ball technology, Play like Mike skillsofts, and full tacnet linkup plus a team of drones to assist.

The shoe is now on the other foot.

[cndblank]

The Horrors are like Michael Jordan in his prime. You can't stop them, you can only hope to contain them.

Victory is surviving the Horrors until the magic level falls to where they have to leave and being able to rebuild.



But Technology is a big enough game changer that meta-humanity could survive with an nearly intact civilization.

Even if it doesn't impact the horrors directly, it is going to limit their damage, allow much larger and more robust Kaers, and spread knowledge needed to survive. It will also help to keep meta humanity united in the struggle.

Before every Kaer was totally on it's own.

And when the horrors are gone, it is going to allow the rebuilding to happen in a fraction of the time.

That means all that magic and technology is likely to be available for the next go around.