Can we beatt he Horrors? - Dumpshock Forums

Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread.

Can we beat the horrors?
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Reaver

Jan 2 2004, 06:49 PM

Post #201

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QUOTE (Snake Oil)

There would be some mass panic and the like. But if they tell of what happened during the Fourth Age now, with thousands of years of time to adjust and prepare for it, it wouldn't be all that bad.

The great dragons are already known to be as close to immortal as most people can comprehend. It's obvious that they lived in a time before and that they weren't just spontaneously created December 24th, 2011. While the immortal elves might be able to get away with not telling, the dragons certainly won't, else they're really going to have to worry about down cycle hunting during the Seventh World unless this next Scourge someone manages to wipe out all traces of the technology we'll have achieved by then, especially in the communications field.

It would be all that bad. The person is smart; but people are dumb, panicky animals. If I remember correctly, it happened in the fourth age and some kaers ended up letting in marked people because of it. Parlainth is a prime example of why you don't let this information out as public knowledge.

Lilt View Member Profile	Jan 2 2004, 07:00 PM Post #202
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032	The difficulty of a horror to mark someone is based on the person's spell defense, and the closest canon equivalent of that is willpower under 3rd ed. Correct? Now I accept that shielding may not work, but as genetically separate species such as dwarves, gnomes, albino people, and true drakes (which metahumans are genetically compatible with, evidence by existence of bred drakes) have higher willpower stats, it would be possible to genetically engineer for a good willpower. I feel that genetic engineering will be one of our best weapons. We can genetically engineer away the susceptibility to wasting diseases, genetically engineer people into Adepts, genetically engineer people so that they die if they do become horror marked. The genetic engineering wildcard is one that even artificer and the like would have trouble dealing with as these people are not like the humans they have fought previously. As for the unknowns: I would not imagine the IEs and Dragons would keep this quiet right-up to the point that the gap is closed. It's a safe bet that Lofwyr, and all of the other dragons, will have agents working around the clock on various projects that could help against the horrors. The Draco Foundation seems to hold fighting horrors as a primary goal (with the bounties for blood-magic practitioners ETC). Just because the general populace don't know about them dosen't mean the people who matter don't or aren't conducting their own research.

Snake Oil View Member Profile	Jan 2 2004, 07:00 PM Post #203
Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,947	I don't see people running through the streets on a regular basis, screaming about the Apocalypse. Even firm believers in it. It's going to be much, much worse if no one knows about it until the last minute. They're not going to be able to build thousands of kaers the world over without people learning of it, especially if the media continues becoming more and more invasive as the years roll by. If they get it out and over with now, it's going to be much more tame then. Especially if we're given the time to learn about our enemy, find out what makes them tick, and begin devising ways of defeating them. Panic will still be rampant, of course, but at least those who don't get into the kaers will likely even stay and willingly join militaries to defeat the Horrors. If large mobs would rather panic blindly, they deserve to be the cannon fodder that they're going to be. But if we had the time and opportunity to not only study but prepare for the Scourge, at least we'd be on equal footing with the Horrors when they come through. For all we know, that's the only reason they really managed to do what they did during the last Scourge -- they were fully prepared and ready, while the majority of metahumanity (especially when the population and communication channels were minimal) were taken all but by surprise.

Reaver

Jan 2 2004, 07:10 PM

Post #204

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QUOTE (Snake Oil)

I don't see people running through the streets on a regular basis, screaming about the Apocalypse. Even firm believers in it.

It's going to be much, much worse if no one knows about it until the last minute. They're not going to be able to build thousands of kaers the world over without people learning of it, especially if the media continues becoming more and more invasive as the years roll by. If they get it out and over with now, it's going to be much more tame then. Especially if we're given the time to learn about our enemy, find out what makes them tick, and begin devising ways of defeating them. Panic will still be rampant, of course, but at least those who don't get into the kaers will likely even stay and willingly join militaries to defeat the Horrors.

If large mobs would rather panic blindly, they deserve to be the cannon fodder that they're going to be. But if we had the time and opportunity to not only study but prepare for the Scourge, at least we'd be on equal footing with the Horrors when they come through. For all we know, that's the only reason they really managed to do what they did during the last Scourge -- they were fully prepared and ready, while the majority of metahumanity (especially when the population and communication channels were minimal) were taken all but by surprise.

Long before the last scourge, a document called the Book of Harrow was discovered. It was this document (no one knows who or what wrote it) that allowed the people of the 4th age to understand that the horrors existed and that the scourge would come. They were prepared and built kaers and citadels thanks to that information. You also need to know that the Horrors are like the primordial evil, like a Cthulhu mythos for the SR world. Even learning about them can be a risk to one's sanity. Speaking thier name aloud is said to draw thier attention. And any 4th world information may have limited usefulness. Who knows what powers they have developed as they waited for thier time.

As a leader of people, you have to ask yourself what is more important. Save those you know you can save with near certainty, or risk loosing it all telling everyone and most likely causing mass panic. Most leaders always opt for the safer bet. You notice in Big D's will, even he didn't make any mention of the horrors when he could have.

Rev View Member Profile	Jan 2 2004, 07:33 PM Post #205
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034	In earthdawn a key component of magical power is 'naming'. This is why sentient creatures are called namegivers, named horrors are the worst horrors, named magical items are the most powerfull by far. There was a big tie in between names, recognition, and power. So it is possible that our huge numbers and communications infrastructure could work against us to some extent. More horrors will get names, as the media quickly generates lables, and more people will know those names. Names will not be forgotten so easily because we will store copies of them all over the place. This in itself could make the horrors worse. Simultaneously this could help namegiver heros grow in power.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 2 2004, 07:42 PM Post #206
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	I doubt many more Horrors will get names, unless names for entire groups of Horrors count. They'd have to be mean enough to be individually identifiable and distinctive enough to be singled out. Hmm... could we name every single Horror Bob? ~J

Req View Member Profile	Jan 2 2004, 07:59 PM Post #207
Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277	Now, there is a difference between names and Names... :) Another nasty thing - if I remember right, the great sage who first translated the Books of Harrow (Elinar Messias, perhaps? Can't remember) went totally fragging mad, tore out his eyes and stuff, and later died, just from reading the books. Knowledge of the Horrors killed him just as dead as the Horrors themselves would have. I got the impression he was one of those Intelligence-10 Willpower-10 ubersages, but I can't swear to any of this. Messias wasn't the only one. There are other stories of similar events; people exposed to the stories of the Horrors are often pretty screwed up by it. The Horrors sourcebook is presented as a document written by a group of hardcore Horror hunters trying to educate others as to the risks involved in fighting the Horrors, with the warning right in the front that reading the book might be enough to mark you. I seem to recall there are more examples... I don't have canon for this 'cause I don't have the Horrors books at work, maybe someone can back me up... But from what I've read I'm sure that, for the most part, the big Horrors aren't intended to be Enemies to Fight - they're a Plot Point. :) edit - punctuation ownz me.

Reaver

Jan 2 2004, 08:01 PM

Post #208

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

I doubt many more Horrors will get names, unless names for entire groups of Horrors count. They'd have to be mean enough to be individually identifiable and distinctive enough to be singled out.
Hmm... could we name every single Horror Bob?

~J

Horrors could very easily get named. Humans are highly predictable at clasifying and naming everything. They name everything around them. Rev brings up a very interesting point and it makes perfect sense as to a good reason as to not telling everyone. The media alone would make things worse.

Reaver

Jan 2 2004, 08:03 PM

Post #209

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QUOTE (Req)

Now, there is a difference between names and Names... :)

Another nasty thing - if I remember right, the great sage who first translated the Books of Harrow (Elinar Messias, perhaps? Can't remember) went totally fragging mad, tore out his eyes and stuff, and later died, just from reading the books. Knowledge of the Horrors killed him just as dead as the Horrors themselves would have. I got the impression he was one of those Intelligence-10 Willpower-10 ubersages, but I can't swear to any of this.

Messias wasn't the only one. There are other stories of similar events; people exposed to the *stories* of the Horrors are often pretty screwed up by it. The Horrors sourcebook is presented as a document written by a group of hardcore Horror hunters trying to educate others as to the risks involved in fighting the Horrors, with the warning right in the front that reading the book might be enough to mark you. I seem to recall there are more examples...

I don't have canon for this 'cause I don't have the Horrors books at work, maybe someone can back me up... But from what I've read I'm sure that, for the most part, the big Horrors aren't intended to be Enemies to Fight - they're a Plot Point. :)

edit - punctuation ownz me.

I don't have mine here at work either, but your summary is pretty much right on target. :D

Moonstone Spider

Jan 2 2004, 09:14 PM

Post #210

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QUOTE (Reaver)

QUOTE (Moonstone Spider @ Jan 2 2004, 05:35 PM)

QUOTE (northern lights @ Jan 2 2004, 11:01 AM)

as far as canon goes, what do you want from canon? i mean i can cite all kind of references to the ability of horrors to corrupt and or genetically alter name-givers up to and including dragons, but it is all from earthdawn. the shadowrun universe has been IMHO blatantly negligent as far as horrors go. they have tie ins all over the place that suggest the horrors will be here, but nothing that shows the gm's how to deal with it.

so do you want only SR canon, which is all that matters since we are playing and discussing SR? if so then here's your answer:

there is none.

if you want canon from earthdawn, make sure that you realize everything in it is from a different game system and has to be modified and adapted to be useful in SR.

so, if you can be more specific of what you want cited form earthdawn canon, then i can try and accommodate you as there is very little i don't have for that system.

What I want is for you to do exactly that, quote all sorts of canon to support your statements. If you claim the horrors can do something, back up that claim. Obviously some things in Earthdawn and Shadowrun are different from a game mechanics point of view, such as the length of turns, but those can be converted easily enough.

For instance, Shadowrun has no information on how horror marking works. However we can make some pretty obvious deductions, and have, about how it works in the Shadowrun universe, requires LOS and certain conditions that vary according to the horror, affects the astral signature, and gives the horror touch range to the person no matter where they are. Earthdawn Canon adapted to Shadowrun. It's so simple. Yes, there are a few odd comparisons but it makes a lot more sense than seeing 10 pages of horror people saying things like "Maybe some unknown horror has the power to turn cyberware into grapefruit, we just don't know."

Also let's hear no more of this "Humans are badly outnumbered" nonsense. If the real canon says it could be anywhere from 10,000:1 Humans on top to the reverse then that claim is absurd. I reccomend we stick to 1:1 as a nice even ratio until some real proof shows up otherwise, but that's just my idea.

If you just want to play the maybe game:

Maybe there's a genetic code that makes you immune to horror powers, and it will be a common genetech by the time they get here. We just don't know.

Maybe all horrors have an extreme allergy to dikote. We just don't know.

Maybe even the slightest piece of cyberware in your body not only makes you immune to a horror, but also causes all horrors within LOS of you to suffer a reversal of their power, for instance if they try to corrupt anyone's karma the horror's karma is corrupted. We just don't know.

Maybe the Horrors have actually wiped themselves out in their "Endless Battles" on the Horror Metaplane and there will only be two or three of them left by the time the scourge begins. We just don't know.

Actually, we have quoted cannon sources for you.

We've told you how horror marking works. I even quoted you the paragraph of the general description of horror marking right out of the horrors book. There is NO SR cannon material on it because they havn't written it. Hence one of the reasons this whole discussion has been theoretical.

We know that there are a crap load of horrors waiting as we speak, as they have been witnessed in Harlequin's Back and in the books. How many? All I can say is a butt load. When you stand at the edge of that gray chasm and see nothing but a black horde climbing over itself for as far as the eye can see... both directions, chances are... that's an awful lot. And Verjigorm churns out more of them every day.

Once again, this discussion started theoretical and is going to remain so unless the makers of SR change things. Arguing about things being/not being canon doesn't fit into the discussion. I'm giving you the info I have at my fingertips from Earthdawn books and giving you the devil's advocate point of view. I've read the horrors book from front to back and I understand thier psychology. Work behinds the scenes and subvert. That's going to work very well on humanity... it always does. You're right that there are many things about horrors that we don't know, and that's why you should never underestimate your enemy. ;)

Yet somehow we've wound up with pro-horror people claiming nukes in the 4th age, when, on inspection, there weren't any. We've wound up with claims of 10,000 horrors for every human when, on inspection, it's equally likely that there's 10,000 humans for every horror. I understand that this is all theoretical. I'd just like to stick with canon instead of whatever house-rules the pro-horror people would like to make up as they go.

Yes, you've described how a horror mark works. And we've gotten the descriptions of exactly three horrors (one of them named). But look at how many horror-claims have turned out to be smoke and mirrors when somebody asked for the page number that power came from?

The issue of what is and isn't canon is the very heart of this matter. The shadowrunners use Shadowrun canon, they don't suddenly decide to use the characters from Marvel and start posting about how Superman will Beat Verjigorm and Batman will trick Artificer into self-destructing, or claim a houserule where they use a holdout pistol that inflicts 75DN damage and works on astral forms. The Earthdawn players (should) use Earthdawn canon and not decide to suddenly use whatever houserules they like as the basis for their arguments, or suddenly decide they want to claim that the Horrors can use spells like the Characters in Dungeons and Dragons can. This is a silly debate for fun anyway but it becomes completely pointless if you change the rules whenever you feel like it.

Playing Games View Member Profile	Jan 2 2004, 09:36 PM Post #211
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500	Cannon only goes so far. To think that things like dragons can't do things that make the great ghost dance look small,is rather silly. Tell ya what show me canonically how the great ghost dance worked. Or canon rules about horror "bridges". Or the earth Quakes in 61. Maybe that guy coming back from the dead. Yes,I made claims that dragons had ubberly powerful magic.In canon,they can pull elementals out of nothing,whenever they want too.So,what bonuses do they get for doing it the long way?Some of the dragons have had tens of thousands of years learning magic.They most likely live in power sites around force 5-10. Lastly,for the record I am pro-human.

Kagetenshi

Jan 2 2004, 09:43 PM

Post #212

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QUOTE (Playing Games)

Cannon only goes so far.

To think that things like dragons can't do things that make the great ghost dance look small,is rather silly.

Tell ya what show me canonically how [these things] worked.

[..]

Maybe that guy coming back from the dead.[...]

Threats 2, pages 53 and 54.

~J

northern lights View Member Profile	Jan 2 2004, 09:46 PM Post #213
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 23-December 03 Member No.: 5,929	moonstone, i will state here that a big reason that i have not posted so much canon is that it is pretty much technically useless to SR people. i'll try to be more consistent in posting the book and page number where appropriate, but i have used summaries cause most people would be thinking the stats and terms for such stuff is useless. to second req, remember also that the names in question are TRUE names. there are canon for the power in both worlds, as in SR you get certain bonuses for knowing the true name of a spirit, etc. and while we are on the subject, let's look at the mad passions they went mad from the horrors and they are on par with "gods" or something. it's disturbing in that since i got the impresion from the dragons pdf that they kind of scoffed at the passions, while in voices from the past and tir tairngire, it seems that they are clearly more significant. anyone's take on this?

Moonstone Spider

Jan 2 2004, 09:55 PM

Post #214

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QUOTE (Playing Games)

Cannon only goes so far.

To think that things like dragons can't do things that make the great ghost dance look small,is rather silly.

Tell ya what show me canonically how the great ghost dance worked.

Or canon rules about horror "bridges".

Or the earth Quakes in 61.

Maybe that guy coming back from the dead.

Yes,I made claims that dragons had ubberly powerful magic.In canon,they can pull elementals out of nothing,whenever they want too.So,what bonuses do they get for doing it the long way?Some of the dragons have had tens of thousands of years learning magic.They most likely live in power sites around force 5-10.

Lastly,for the record I am pro-human.

You vastly overestimate the lack of canon here. Yes, we don't know the exact nature of the Great Ghost dance. On the other hand it's effects are pretty clear, and we know it's rare and difficult enough that only a handful of people on earth can possibly do it (Same with the Wild Hunt for that matter). We also know what will happen to anybody on the recieving end of such forces and what can reasonably survive them.

I know the canon for dragons, at least a goodly portion of it, as well. Earthdawn Dragons page 33 describes how a number of Great Dragons, working together, can reshape the world, levelling mountains and creating deserts. I hate to break the news to you, but that puts all the Great Dragons in Earthdawn about on par with the Roman Empire, which did the exact same thing several times. They can also cast spells without having to learn them first, which basically means they're like any high-initiation mage except they spend less Karma on buying spells. On the other hand we see Great Dragons get beaten by humans too, in the aforementioned Shadows of the Underworld page 47 a team of Four Shadowrunners take on a single Great Eastern Dragon, stun it, and then steal it's eggs. Sure, they needed quite a bit of Karma to pull it off, along with multiple elementals and they devised a specific spell to attack that dragon, but even so four high-end shadowrunners took out a great dragon. Later in the book (page 52) when the Dragon goes crazy and uses every ounce of power it has to destroy the city over it's egg getting smashed Lonestar kills it with multiple HRT teams. This means two things:

1 Great dragon <= 4 High-end Shadowrunners who have surprise. It's also < an unknown number of security teams even when they have no surprise and it's using every power it has at full force. They might have been superior in the 4th age but 6th age man is a much tougher bird.

Notice, I cited some page numbers and the book this came from. That's what I'd like to see from everybody else, even if the rules don't describe every situation (It's shadowrun, the rules are usually vauge) we won't wind up with another 4th age nuke argument if you have some sort of canon to back things up.

Reaver

Jan 2 2004, 09:56 PM

Post #215

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QUOTE

Yet somehow we've wound up with pro-horror people claiming nukes in the 4th age, when, on inspection, there weren't any. We've wound up with claims of 10,000 horrors for every human when, on inspection, it's equally likely that there's 10,000 humans for every horror. I understand that this is all theoretical. I'd just like to stick with canon instead of whatever house-rules the pro-horror people would like to make up as they go.

If this is theoretical, then sticking entirely to canon is a moot point. One of the things that needs to be accounted for in this theoretical discussion is... how have the horrors potentialy progressed. It is highly possible that the named horrors that were known of have even bigger and better powers than they did before. I'm not making up rules as I go, but providing you with devil's advocate debate. :)

QUOTE

Yes, you've described how a horror mark works. And we've gotten the descriptions of exactly three horrors (one of them named). But look at how many horror-claims have turned out to be smoke and mirrors when somebody asked for the page number that power came from.

Not everybody knows Eartdawn material or they may be trying to summarize. Maybe they too are trying to give you devil's advocate point of view. The horros are not supposed to be some easily defeated foe. They are supposed to be THE prime evil that will ALWAYS exist. The are a never ending foe and unquenchable in thier lust for causing pain and misery. When they attack, it will seem like the very gates of hell itself were flung open. The most poerful named horrors are as gods and are not defeatable. Defeat thier plots... perhaps, but not them. PC's should NEVER be going up against such entities. If they do, it's time for new characters.

QUOTE

The issue of what is and isn't canon is the very heart of this matter. The shadowrunners use Shadowrun canon, they don't suddenly decide to use the characters from Marvel and start posting about how Superman will Beat Verjigorm and Batman will trick Artificer into self-destructing, or claim a houserule where they use a holdout pistol that inflicts 75DN damage and works on astral forms. The Earthdawn players (should) use Earthdawn canon and not decide to suddenly use whatever houserules they like as the basis for their arguments, or suddenly decide they want to claim that the Horrors can use spells like the Characters in Dungeons and Dragons can. This is a silly debate for fun anyway but it becomes completely pointless if you change the rules whenever you feel like it.

Once again. We have already established that this is a theoretical debate. Therefore, canon is not at all the heart of the matter. While it is nice to be able to have canon sources quoted to get a better understanding of what they were like in the 4th age... when they come back they won't be the same beasties. They have had thousands of years to change and evolve just as we have. The only difference between them and us... they havn't forgotten.

Unless Wizkids comes up with rules and stats for the horrors (and I don't see that happening any time soon) then our whole debate with this thread has very little canon to go with it. We don't know what potential the horrors have, let alone the potential humanity will have when the invasion comes. So, all we can do is speculate and come up with ideas. :)

Eldritch View Member Profile	Jan 2 2004, 09:59 PM Post #216
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139	Discussing this topic in terms of reality is kind of pointless, this is just a game. So let us discuss it as a game: If Fan Pro/Wiz Kids did release a campaign supplement that covered the begininng of the scrouge, then yes. The horrors would be defeated. Why play in a game, where in the final outcome metahumanity will loose?? Maybe the Horros, upon first enetering our woulrd are weak. Thousands of years with nothing to feed on has depleted their powers. This would be a great campaign, just before the horrors: First adventure: The PC's discover the Book of Harrow. Perhaps they were hired by an agent of the horrors that wished to hide the text. The PC's discover the nature of the book and deliver it to someone that can do something about it. Like the Draco foundation or The Cult of the Dragon. Next, set of adventures: The PC's search for ways to fight the horrors, or delay the crossing. Interlude: The Crossing. The Horrors come over, weakend by their wait, but still powerful Next set of adventures: The Horror's are fought. The pc's could be actually campaigning against some of the horrors, or perhaps questing for useful artifacts/knowledge. Endgame: The horrors are defeated. In the end, though, Metahumanity would win. The scrouge would be defeated. Why? Becuase we as the PC's are the metahumans. Now, if it were a game where the PC's were Horrors...Well then of course the puny humans would loose. Now if you want to play a game that takes place During the scrouge, may I suggest Rifts?

Reaver

Jan 2 2004, 10:07 PM

Post #217

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QUOTE (Eldritch)

Discussing this topic in terms of reality is kind of pointless, this is just a game.

So let us discuss it as a game:
If Fan Pro/Wiz Kids did release a campaign supplement that covered the begininng of the scrouge, then yes. The horrors would be defeated. Why play in a game, where in the final outcome metahumanity will loose?? Maybe the Horros, upon first enetering our woulrd are weak. Thousands of years with nothing to feed on has depleted their powers.

This would be a great campaign, just before the horrors:

First adventure: The PC's discover the Book of Harrow. Perhaps they were hired by an agent of the horrors that wished to hide the text. The PC's discover the nature of the book and deliver it to someone that can do something about it. Like the Draco foundation or The Cult of the Dragon.
Next, set of adventures: The PC's search for ways to fight the horrors, or delay the crossing.
Interlude: The Crossing. The Horrors come over, weakend by their wait, but still powerful
Next set of adventures: The Horror's are fought. The pc's could be actually campaigning against some of the horrors, or perhaps questing for useful artifacts/knowledge.
Endgame: The horrors are defeated.

In the end, though, Metahumanity would win. The scrouge would be defeated. Why? Becuase we as the PC's are the metahumans.

Now, if it were a game where the PC's were Horrors...Well then of course the puny humans would loose.

Now if you want to play a game that takes place During the scrouge, may I suggest Rifts?

The better campaign supplement would be this;

- The scourge happens. Humaniti is completely unprepared because the horrors have been manipulating them behind the scenes and setting group against group. A great number of humans are already dead from plgues and violence. Whole infrasturctures are weakend, making it easy for the horrors to invade.

- Those who decided to fight head on loose to the last man/woman.

- The survivors are divided into two different camps. Those who stayed in protected vaults and those who escaped deep into space (maybe other planets).

- The game would take place way in the future when magic starts to wane and humans struggle to take back control of the planet.

That's a far better gaming idea because it provides endless adventure possibilities and doesn't make humaniti out to be god killers... which they aren't. Nor should any game allow for that, it's far too munchkin. ;)

Eldritch View Member Profile	Jan 2 2004, 10:12 PM Post #218
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139	Yeah, but why fight to take anything back? If the 'cream' of metahumanity has survived(either in space or in kaers), then just wait out the waneing(sp) of magic. The horrors will just go away on their own.

Reaver

Jan 2 2004, 10:15 PM

Post #219

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QUOTE (Eldritch)

Yeah, but why fight to take anything back? If the 'cream' of metahumanity has survived(either in space or in kaers), then just wait out the waneing(sp) of magic. The horrors will just go away on their own.

Maybe it ends up with the same issue as last time. When they thought the horrors should have been gone... they weren't. The mana level did not drop as expected.

Eldritch View Member Profile	Jan 2 2004, 10:31 PM Post #220
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139	I'd think that'd be easy enough to confirm. A quick journey to the metaplanes and check the 'chasm' see that it's far enough eawy and that there are no bridges....

Reaver

Jan 2 2004, 10:34 PM

Post #221

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QUOTE (Eldritch @ Jan 2 2004, 10:31 PM)

I'd think that'd be easy enough to confirm. A quick journey to the metaplanes and check the 'chasm' see that it's far enough eawy and that there are no bridges....

Ah, but A.) Only a select few people know how to make it to that plane in question, B.) That means leaving the protection of the kaer and possibly allowing a marked mage to return... not the best idea. Hence the reason why they didn't do that during the last scourge.

Eldritch View Member Profile	Jan 2 2004, 10:50 PM Post #222
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139	Okay, point taken :) But then you're just playing Earthdawn, with a little tech thrown into the mix. ;)

Reaver

Jan 2 2004, 11:24 PM

Post #223

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QUOTE (Eldritch)

Okay, point taken :)

But then you're just playing Earthdawn, with a little tech thrown into the mix. ;)

And Shadowrun is just Earthdawn's future. ;)

Joker9125

Jan 3 2004, 12:57 AM

Post #224

Moving Target

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Member No.: 5,909

ok i am forced to again apoligize for getting the cremak blast mixed up. horribly sorry about that but when your reading a 12 page long post talking about 3 different topics it is a bit easy to get things confused. This is why i started THIS thread specifically to discuss the horrors so such mix ups as mine will not occur again

From reading this post i have determined 2 things about the 2 sides of the argument and where they base their ideas and beliefs

1. Pro Humans for the most part have never read anything on the horros and have never played earthdawn. They are basing their assumption on the horrors on what they belive and and speculation

2. Pro horrors for the most part have played earthdawn and have read the horros books have some idea of what the horros are capable of. These people base their assumptions and belifs about the horrors on the books and some of their own ideas.

If any pro humans out their have ever extensively read about the horrors and still think we can win please speak up. I for one am going to buy every horrors book i can.

here are a few other points i would like to make in my own defense...

QUOTE

What force the dragons could have summoned artificer at depends on what is reasonably possible. If we really want to find-out what the most powerful spirit that dragons could have reasonably summoned (by the SR rules) lets look at the stats.

Taking 10 great dragons (this is probably a generous estimate due to the problems of getting them all in the same place during the scourge, or getting them all to work together, or getting them all into a circle) with conjuring skills of around 13 (equal to the willpower stat of a great dragon, some would have more and some less) we have 130 dice. Working on the Shadowrun dice roll probability calculator rolling 130 dice with 500 karma pool for rerolls (that's 31 rerolls) available, the best force they could reasonably conjure would be around 29 before the probabilities drop below 50%, 21 if you want a nearly 100% chance. That's assuming a you want a single success and any more would be bought using excess karma pool (if any). OK: it could have bought up its force a bit using karma, and your guess is as good as mine as to how much karma it managed to accumulate (I'm assuming it can only take it from people free-spirit style rather than develop its own). Also note that the various horror powers probably cost karma to learn.

QUOTE

I'm still chuckling about the Intelligence of 200!

ok here is an argument against my previous force predictions for artifacter. This argument is used on the basis that dragons have to follow the same conjuring rules that we do. like making a hermatic circle and buying conjuring materials ect...

QUOTE

Yes,I made claims that dragons had ubberly powerful magic. In canon,they can pull elementals out of nothing,whenever they want too.So,what bonuses do they get for doing it the long way?Some of the dragons have had tens of thousands of years learning magic.They most likely live in power sites around force 5-10.

ok this tells me that dragons DO NOT follow the same rules for conjuring that we do and in fact could have summoned an extremely high force elemental maybe not as high as i had previously predicted force 100-200 but certainly more than 29. probably more realistically arouund the 50's

Fortune

Jan 3 2004, 01:13 AM

Post #225

Immoral Elf

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From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486

QUOTE (Joker9125)

Pro Humans for the most part have never read anything on the horros and have never played earthdawn. They are basing their assumption on the horrors on what they belive and and speculation.

Bullshit!

QUOTE

If any pro humans out their have ever extensively read about the horrors and still think we can win please speak up.

I have, and there are quite a few others here who are in the same category.

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