 Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. |
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 Jan 16 2004, 04:19 PM
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#476
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153  |
The named horrors won't do that themselves. They will have agents and allies who will do it for them. And why wouldn't they shoot down a satellite? Remove an enemies ability to view your movements, make him blind, and he cannot effectively fight... wouldn't you agree? Horrors are not stupid. |
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Jan 16 2004, 04:43 PM
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#477
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,114 |
From Beyond the Pale, Dunkie talking: "My fellow dragons are overconfident... Technology changes everything. No magic can protect against it. There will be no hiding this time. There will only be war. We must gain the time we need to build our technology so that we have the ability to fight the Enemy when it can cross." It is pretty clear the Horrors will use technology, themselves or by pawns. |
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Jan 16 2004, 04:46 PM
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#478
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
@ reaver: So, let me get this straight: You wrote a story to support your position? Well, I got a story for you too: "It has become a time of great joy. A new Golden Age of Man. All the peoples of the world are celebrating the Great Victory we have achieved...." Now, I ask you: What would you say to me if I put my story up here first? ... That's what I thought.
No they're not. You've already convinced us of that. But just because you don't like being spied on, doesn't mean you can do jack about it. The resources needed to shoot down not one but LOTS of satellites is beyond the ability of even the Named Horrors. Because they don't just have to shoot down LOTS of satellites they need to develop facilities capable of producing munitions that can evade satellite defensive systems. IIRC, you pro-Horrors stated that the Horrors would go around Marking people all, I believe the term was "willy-nilly". So, no army of Marked metas. "Oh but they know enough to Mark someone important," You say. Okay, thats one guy. We'll say he's in charge of a place w/ the ability to fire a weapon that can evade sat defenses and get the thing. One sat down, one high ranking Marked Meta revealed. New security in place to make sure that doesn't happen again at that facility. They move a different sat into position to cover for the other one. Ares, from an orbital platform launches a new sat they'd been working on just in case something like this happens. Humans are not stupid. [edit] I just actually read your story. "Slay sticks"? I already have one. Its a baseball bat. If I hit someone hard enough w/ it, he or she is slain. Or are they magic and can only be used by the Awakened? Or did the Horror agents take the challenge in Big D's will to create a magical device that can be used by mundanes? I'm sure no one would have thought it odd that a bunch of Humanis goons got thier hands on such powerful magic. 60% of the world pop is gone!? What the hell? Everyone is sooo under the control of the Horrors that no powerful multi national organization would put an end to this? The Corp Court could but then again, why would they want to save the people that buy thier products? This post has been edited by kevyn668: Jan 16 2004, 05:02 PM |
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Jan 16 2004, 04:52 PM
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#479
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Right. As I've said before: Its also pretty clear that Big D thinks w/ more time we (don't know if he says "we" in the book, but you put it in your quote, so I'll go w/ it) can develop tech that will give us "...the ability to fight the Enemy when it can cross". Notice he says fight. Why would a Great Dragon try to fight something that cannot be beaten? They seem like pretty smart chaps. One would think if there was a fight that could not be won they'd advocate a different approach than the "blaze of glory". |
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Jan 16 2004, 05:02 PM
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#480
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The Named Horrors aren't going to care one bit about your satellites. If they used massed armies then yes, the satellites would be a threat. They DON'T. They don't even manifest physically most of the time. Take Tempter, for instance. You're going to use a satellite to locate something the size of a COCKLEBURR? I think not. Even if you had it dead in your sights, the odds against being able to identify it as a threat are astronomical. Hunter of Hunters will look like someone dedicated to killing off Horrors, so no problem there. Artificer will spend most of its time in the Astral as always, and Chantrel's Horror never manifests period. The only Horrors who are threatened are the massed armies of cadaver men and Gnashers who are, in fact, too stupid to be able to shoot down a satellite. They'll be one more weapon against the Constructs, and a modern Kaer. That's it.
There's also no chance the Horrors on earth would shoot down the satellite for the sake of shooting it down. There's nothing for them to feed on doing that. My position has changed several times during this debate, but currently I think that one of two things will happen: either humanity will defeat the Horrors, or the Horrors will go about feeding on humanity for the duration of the Scourge. I do not believe that the Horrors are capable of wiping humanity off the face of the earth like they did last time, but the ones that count don't need or even really want to. ~J |
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Jan 16 2004, 05:10 PM
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#481
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
The fact that I wrote the story was not the point, it was the pattern in the story. A simple, yet complex pattern of how the scourge would most likely happen. Who wrote first is immaterial. A debate is not a race. :) Not everyone has to be marked to be an ally... do they? How many people in the dark world of Shadowrun would sell thier fellow man up the river for even the promise of extra nuyen or continued survival. For that matter, how many would gladly do it today. If you answer is anything less than, "a lot," then you are quite naive. It's those that are already morally corrupt that will help the horrors achieve thier goals. They won't even have to be marked. They will carry out the will of the horrors gladly. Now, how many moraly corrupt would you say run corporations? Can you say Enron? Shadowrun allows for corps to BE corrupt without consequence given extra-territorial rights. Needless to say, most corps will probably end up on the side of the horrors. Now it's not JUST one person, it's whole corps against you with major resources. With those resources, satellites not under thier control go bye bye. The horrors will be decades entrenched in boardrooms, governments and religions long before you ever see the scourge come to light. Manipulation from the shadows will be where they operate, not on a battlefield. They will drive wedges into every social and class structure. Humans will gladly accept these wedges and go to war with THEMSELVES, because it's so easy to hate. Humans are not and never have been a truly united species. They will gladly kill each other over differing ideology or a pair of sneakers. Even both Tir's can't get along. They may come together in time of need; a need that is truly in thier face, but how quickly they fall back to the same old hatreds when that need has passed. It's often amazing how easy it is to manipulate humans into hating each other. By the time the multitude of uninformed know what's going on... it's already too late and the scourge will happen. |
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Jan 16 2004, 05:10 PM
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#482
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Oh yes, and before anyone points out that tech is the reason that Dragons can't hide anymore:
Verjigorm is one additional Horror that I could conceivably see using tech, but for one reason and one alone. It hates Dragons with a passion. It will use tech for the single-minded purpose of hunting down and corrupting all the Dragons. I see no reason why it would expend such effort on the lesser Namegivers, or why any of the others would save Hunter of Hunters and sorta Artificier. ~J |
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Jan 16 2004, 05:17 PM
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#483
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
Notice he say's "fight," not "defeat." ;) If one was so sure that technology would be the great equalizer, then would not the better term have been defeat? I'm sure even Big D knew the scourge would happen and millions would die. Technology would just help those behind to survive through it. |
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Jan 16 2004, 05:20 PM
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#484
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
The only reason I could see Verjigorm turning his attention to lesser name givers is to target specific ones for corruption as well. Maybe even those who piss him off. ;) |
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Jan 16 2004, 05:28 PM
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#485
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
He said "fight" and not "defeat" because defeating them is not a certainty in the least.
~J |
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Jan 16 2004, 06:06 PM
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#486
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Cauthrunne is all about giving her chosen great new weapons and armor. In ED times she made them broadswords and living crystal platemail. Obviously those are a bit outdated - but who's to say she couldn't learn to give them something better? After all, it's slaughter she's after...
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Jan 16 2004, 06:10 PM
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#487
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
No, its not. But fan fiction is hardly a good staging point for a debate. Or a race for that matter. :) Your sample plan was indeed simple (kill'em all. don't get much simpler than that) but it was far from complex. Underwold scum using mass produced magic weapons is bound cause someone to raise an eyebrow, I would think. The world population decreasing 60% would also draw attention, if no other reason because it would make the news at some point. I'm also pretty sure it would take a century or so of steady decrease. That should also catch someone's eye.
I was under the impression (from Pro-Horrors) that if you accept a deal from a Horror or Horror Mark, you're Marked. People in the shadows would sell out their fellow man for a few nuyen and have been doing so for quite some time but how much damage can a group non-unified sociopathic shit bags do? Corp guys? Well, they can cause suffering in the form of human experimentation and sweat shops but I don't see how that aids the will of Horrors any more than being nice to your neighbor acts against it.
As I suggested above and you chose to ignore. Why would a vastly intelligent creature w/ thousands of years behind him enter or even consider entering into a conflict that he had no hope of emerging victorious. Great Dragons are not bar room brawlers. They can be quite subtle, I hear. And on that point, if the uber-smart Horrors know enough to influece humanity to do thier will, why wouldn't a Great Dragon? Or an IE, for that matter...oh, wait. They do. ;) |
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Jan 16 2004, 06:27 PM
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#488
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
Your right. It will catch someone's attention, but that attention will be turned towards another HUMAN group. And that will be so easily accepted. With the weapons of mass destruction at our fingertips, you could cause a 60% drop in poulation in a weekend. It would be even easier to do with Shadowrun technology. Once again, of course, blamed on various political and national groups.
I never said that working for them meant an instant marking. Chances are they can be easily marked at any time since they chose to. Perhaps the horrors will turn to just bringing in allies and first without marking so that they can't be easily spotted. Why tip your hand if you don't have to? The corps being in the horrors back pocket means more resources for them. If those corps are also megacorps, then that means MAJOR resources for them. For every weapon Ares produces for the street, ten could be going towards the horrors armies. Shadow resources used to create discord and strife. Bioweapons being developed in R&D labs for mass production. Nuclear (whatever the form) being built and delivered to fanatical groups. Toxic by-products from the corps being dumped in your backyard (so to speak). All of the sudden, your neighbor doesn't look so nice does he? ;)
Maybe he knows the battlefield is going to be different the next time. Why have all those grants for space projects? Obviously if he was so vastly intelligent he would have used the word victorious, if he knew for certain... which he didn't. The great dragons are afraid, pure and simple. They know Verjigorm waits to resume the hunt for them. And you are right, they have been influencing humanity... for THIER OWN goals, not humanity. Considering the fact they they all can't even get along, thier goal may not even work. Might not be such a smart idea to put your eggs in thier basket after all. ;) |
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Jan 16 2004, 06:36 PM
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#489
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Reading Scourge Unending again last night, it seemed that there were a couple of Horrors duking it out in an abandoned city - Vivane, I think - and I think the Horrors were Twiceborn and some Horror Cloud or something. Anwyay, they mentioned that a reasonable amount of Name-giver (metahuman) traders had entered into trading agreements with one or the other, and were making madd money selling goods produced by these Horrors and their minions throughout the region. The sage telling the story was quite worried about people purchasing these goods and thus becoming marked. Now, anyone remember Ambergel? (side note - if you didn't ever play Queen Euphoria, you missed out.) That tasty snack food prodcut that you just can't get enough of? Wouldn't it be cool if next year's Tasty New Snack Food, backed up by a massive Azzie marketing campaign and reaching tens of millions of people through loads of different subsidiaries, maybe under different names, granted a Horror mark to everyone who ate it? Modern advertising would be a godsend to the sorts of Horrors into that thing. I don't remember much of anything about Twiceborn but I reckon he's a badass. |
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Jan 16 2004, 06:45 PM
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#490
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
Or a tasty new snack food that made a certain percentage of the population sterile to cut down on that pesky human population growth. After all, wouldn't want them thinking they will win based on numbers. ;) Oh, and wasn't Twiceborn just an undead ghoul? I don't remember her being described as a Horror. |
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Jan 16 2004, 06:51 PM
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#491
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
She's a Horror Construct, and a very useful one. She's effectively immortal, as if you kill her an identical copy will be created.
~J Edit: You know, an interesting battle would be Twiceborn vs. Twice Born (Soulblighter). Edit2: This would also provide an interesting basis for a Shadowrun/Myth crossover. You'd need to extend the timeframe of Myth's cycles and change some details, but The Leveller sounds like a perfect Horror. Cadaver Men to Thrall, Plagues to Wights... it'd take some work, but would be quite interesting. |
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Jan 16 2004, 07:04 PM
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#492
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Personally I think that's easier to do with a virus. Simple gengeneering. I wonder. Accepting something from a Horror can mark you; can you "accept" a virus? :) And what's the deal with the other Horror in Vivane, the cloud thing? |
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Jan 16 2004, 07:27 PM
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#493
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
A big thundercloud with a ship inside it. It can blow stuff up with lightning; they're insanely difficult to stop (I believe only one has ever been destroyed), and it is suggested that they be used "as a force of nature. In almost every case, they are not something that can be fought directly." The most powerful one, lead by the remains of Admiral Hartmallen, sits over Vivane and tries to wrest control of the city from Twiceborn. It is prevented by the fact that the Gharmheks can take control of the undead that the cloud creates, though it's noted that the cloud is working on types of undead beyond the ability of the Gharmheks to control.
The Gharmheks, by the by, are the force behind Twiceborn. ~J |
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Jan 16 2004, 07:27 PM
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#494
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
But which group? A mass produced (however your uber badguys manage it) magical weapon would warrant serious attention. You wouldn't stop at the first convenient scapegoat. "All those magic clubs? No prob, we caught some crazy shaman. He had a wharehousefull and a coupla pounds of that wacky magik metal. Come to think of it there were some weird notes scrawled on the walls...Vergeromite or summthin'. End o' the world drek. Oh well, that weird new desk sgt. told me 'not worry about it'.... " And since powerful people never notice when there is corruption everything would be just fine. I mean, why would anyone care that some street trash figured out how to produce orichalcum in quantities sufficient to supply a gang the size of Humanis. Or that the street trash in question had no problem buying a bunch of stuff like that.Riiight.
Okay, so again, no world watch agencies would take action? Governments and corps alike would turn a blind eye to bioweapons and nukes being delivered to fanatical groups. Oh, thats right. 20 pages later and, silly me, I forgot that the Horrors would run everything by the time they got here. No one notice because EVERYONE'S "in on it". Well, thank you for clearing that up for me. Do you think that the people in charge of things like that don't keep track of the stuff? I know they do now. Perhaps you could explain to me why they don't in the future. That assumes of course that everyone on the planet is not, in fact, "in on it" as you presume.
But you seem to. Remind me to give you a call the next time go for lotto tickets. :) obviously the battlefield is different. He had grants for all kinds of things. The majority of which (that weren't designed to settle some old score) are aimed at helping humanity prepare. Big D couldn't see the future, just some of the possiblities. One of which is to fight. And why get into a fight you have no chance of winning? Implying that he thought we had a fighting chance.
Yeah, and we all saw how it turned out for the makers of amber gel. Being scraped off my boot.
Good thing your man in the FDA let that one slip by the goalie. And your man in the CDC, and your man in the reverse enginering dept of EVERY SINGLE corp that is not producing your magic goo. And all of thier bosses and thier bosses' bossess and everyone that works beneath them who could possibly have two brain cells to rub together and come w/ "hey, wait a tick. everyone that eats this drek is sterile..." I saw that Stargate SG1, it didn't work out so well for the bad guys in that one either... ;) |
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Jan 16 2004, 07:47 PM
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#495
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
'Course, Ambergel was being controlled by one low-ranking person, pushed by a tiny company, and produced by a single hidden being. And no-one at the company pushing it had any idea how it was made. Oh, and most importantly - no-one ever stopped carrying the stuff, or had any idea of what it was or what it was doing. It got terminated when runners, for reasons TOTALLY UNCONNECTED to Ambergel, killed the producer. So I don't see any relevance here. |
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Jan 16 2004, 08:03 PM
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#496
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
Yep, and many people would be told not to worry about it and they would do just that. That's the way humans are. If it doesn't directly affect them, it can be quickly forgotten. Look how easily the evils that facists dictatorships have been forgotten from WWII. Saddam wasn't a direct threat to us, so just ignore the problem was what a LOT of people anti-war people kept saying. It's so easy for people to turn a blind eye, and even easier in Shadowrun.
What world watch agency would this be? Corps are nations unto themselves. They are their OWN territory. What agency holds true sway over them? The Corp Court doesn't monitor everything every corp does. They only dictate rules when something goes wrong or an issue is BROUGHT to the court. Overwatch might be somewhat instrumental, but even they can't cover everything. And even if such an organization existed, that just means the horrors work even deeper in the shadows just keep out from under thier eyes. If shadowrunners do this on a regular basis, it wouldn't be that difficult for the horrors agents.
Perhaps the purpose of his grants was to make it possible for humanity to survive, not to fight. The issue with the horrors is not about fighting... it's about survival. Trying to wipe out the horrors is like trying to stamp out evil. You can't do it because nature will not let you. Since the technology that we have will be available to the horrors, hiding underground is not an option. Even space will not be problem free. I imagine the next scourge will be more like a never ending battle with victory coming when the mana level drops. |
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Jan 16 2004, 08:13 PM
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#497
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Blind eye, huh? And what do you suppose Saddam is doing right now?
Each corp/government probably has its own regulatory commision that keeps track of hazardous material...Oh, thats right, I forgot again. Horrors run everything anyway...I can't believe you haven't swayed me sooner w/ your well founded facts of "because the Horrors can do that, duh"
Then why did he say "fight"...not survive? ;) |
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Jan 16 2004, 08:33 PM
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#498
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
20 pages guys, excellent job. I wonder if that's a record.
Random question. Some people have suggested nuking the world, which sounds like a lot of fun, with the unfortunate side effect of some civilian casualties. Well how hard would it be to nuke someone else's world? Someone said that the horrors go into other metaplanes, so lets leave ours nice and neat and just blow theirs up. It won't be hitting the horrors on the 'front lines' as it were, but it'll cause major casualties with minor loses on our side. And you can't tell me that earth elementals really care about their plane of existence THAT much. The bonus is that if different planes undergo mana spikes at different times, we can begin hitting the horrors before they even pay us a visit! Then we'll know well beforehand if we should fight or run with our tails between our legs. |
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Jan 16 2004, 08:46 PM
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#499
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Not the finest example. Maybe Hitler and the British, just prior to WWII? I don't think it's debatable that humans often choose to turn a blind eye to problems rather than facing them, as long as the check won't come due right away. Look at our environmental policies. Look at fossil fuel usage. We could take care of both of these problems easily - cost a bit more now, save future generations trillions. But why? Because people have an inherent self-interest. This isn't necessarily bad, but it's a fact of life.
You really think so? I think there's clear evidence that the megas are woefully lax on control of hazardous materials. Look at the number of toxic spills. Look at what percentage of Europe is toxic zones! Glow City in Redmond? The mention of the theft of large amounts of toxic industrial byproducts in Threats, supposedly by Winternight, from a low-security facility in the North Sea (IIRC)? JUst like today, there's really no bottom line in eco-consciousness. And it'll only be worse when corps don't have an EPA to answer to. The Horrors aren't behind everything. In the end, purly Human weaknesses are often at fault.
Well, which makes better propaganda? I don't personally think Dunk had the answer either way, but if he was trying to pump people up for a fight, better not to demoralize them too far... |
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Jan 16 2004, 09:37 PM
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#500
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
They did in fact stop carrying it. With no one to produce it, they had no choice now did they? Also, if it was such a hot idea, how come none of the other Bugs picked up on it? The UB? I thought Horror agents were supposed to single and untraceable. If there were a large cabal wouldn't that make them easy targets? As for thwarting the eivl plan....Well, I guess I could just stroll down to my local area Low Securty Nuke Storage Facility and pick myself up a TacNuke and leave it in the Low Security Horror Infected Pudding Plant. :lick:
Maybe we'll be more motivated to get off our collective asses and do something if a Great Dragon or two said so. If they're so scared you think they might at some point...
Seems fairly difficult to me to break into a Nuke silo and make off w/ one.
AFAIK, propaganda generally works better if its public. ;) |
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