 Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. |
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 Jan 19 2004, 06:31 AM
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#526
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017  |
Why does it take 21 pages for someone to bring that up?
(yes, I know I wasn't posting every page) |
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Jan 19 2004, 06:33 AM
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#527
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Because everone else in the thread was too busy with the mental wanking to notice what was going on around them.
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Jan 19 2004, 08:38 AM
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#528
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
...that, or we figured it was self-explanatory...
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Jan 19 2004, 08:54 AM
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#529
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
...well before this thread ever started...
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Jan 19 2004, 06:12 PM
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#530
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Or the only intelligent poster on the board gave up reading this thread :biggrin:
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Jan 19 2004, 07:54 PM
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#531
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563 |
The correct answer to this is no. Here's why. The Horrors were designed to be the big bads of ED. The are for all intents and purposes the equivalent of Satan, The First Evil from Buffy, what ever. They are a coinvent hook for GM's. No matter how many clues, quotes etc, you find in all the books together they can not and will not ever be beaten. The Scourge may be stopped or delayed for a while but it will come again. If not this age then the next. If you GM decides thats how it's going to work out.
Where am I getting all my info from? What books? Supply quotes? NO. It comes from reading countless comic books, sci-fi, fantasy, religious texts, game manuals, and many, many, many, many, many, many other books and life experience. So until someone from FanPro says different thats the way it is. This is a nice little fan wank but it can't be solved. It will never be able to reach a conclusion. Yeah I'd like to kick the shit out of the Horrors but the game is designed so that will never happen unless you want to do something with out relying heavily on cannon. Thanos |
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Jan 19 2004, 08:05 PM
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#532
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It's not at all unprecedented for the big bad überevil of something to be defeated. This can lead to amusing things like the end of The Worm Ouroboros when the good guys used their third and final wish that they got defeating their ancestral enemies to restore said enemies to life to renew the fight.
~J |
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Jan 19 2004, 11:38 PM
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#533
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563 |
Yes but then it wasn't really over then was it? Note: I don't know how the tone of these last two posts is coming out but I'm not trying to be a dick or rain on anyone's parade. It's just that they are a plot device that serves the story. If you kill the Horrors then the story is over. No more evil, everyone lives in peace and harmony. No more Shadowrun. Now this works out for a book or a movie, where you aren't planning on upteen sequels. For a game that you want to keep publishing indefinitely it doesn't really work so well. Thanos |
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Jan 20 2004, 12:11 AM
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#534
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 24-November 02 Member No.: 3,638 |
Hate to harken back to Tolkein, but... Melkor/Morgoth was the source of evil in the universe. Finally, after ages of futile battle, he was thrown down, his works destroyed (mostly), and he was cast into the outer darkness... and the elves and men thought they had destroyed evil for ever.
Then Sauron (Morgoth's old servant) turned up... Just because the uberevil is destroyed doesn't necessarily mean that all becomes sweetness and light. That's all I'm saying. |
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Jan 20 2004, 12:19 AM
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#535
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
The Horrors are not Shadowrun's ultimate enemy. They were Earthdawn's. Shadowrun would be a perfectly viable setting without any of the Fourth World relics kicking around. Unlike high fantasy, cyberpunk doesn't need an external enemy... humanity is quite capable of doing enough awful things to ourselves and our world that Ultimate Evils From Beyond Time are more than a bit redundant.
And, IMAO, asserting that the Horrors are the ultimate source of all the awful things we do to ourselves and that eliminating them would bring on a new era of utopian peace and prosperity actually detracts from the setting. I much prefer a world where people do nasty things to each other just because they're people, with conflicting needs, desires, and motivations. Really, which is nastier, a world where the Horrors are the ultimate evil and we can never beat them because then there'll be no conflict... or a world where we turn the Horrors into dog food and it doesn't change anything? |
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Jan 20 2004, 12:23 AM
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#536
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
As long as you have magic and creepy-crawly Elder things waiting to devour humanity, you'll never have Cyberpunk as coined by the various literature sources.
Granted, I seriously enjoy a good Cthulhu game. Ya wanna talk about limited life expectancies... -Siege |
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Jan 20 2004, 12:33 AM
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#537
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
Thanos007,your rant about how the horrors can't be beat,is hallow.The Horrors didn't make man greedy.They didn't make man kill.They aren't the only evil thing.Without them,there will still be evil.
Unless,you think no human,would hurt another human, out greed. |
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Jan 20 2004, 01:49 AM
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#538
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563 |
I agree. However... as the two games are tied together by canon we can't escape conversations like this. We can ignore it as it isn't really a big deal (yet) in Shadowrun, but it is there.
Which can be debated as the simerulloinasdg (how ever the heck you spell it :) ) was put together after jrrt's death, by his son. So who knows what would have been taken out/revised? However, I do get your point and I'm sure you can find other stories like that. Having said that...
That is especally true for ED where they (Horrors) are major players from the get go. In Shadowrun they are just background noise and a cute way to tie the two games together. Next up...
Don't know that much about Earth Dawn but I have a feeling that everything was ok with all the races until the Horrors showed up and corrupted a few people etc. Yeah. In reality I'm pretty familular with the evil men do. There are others however, in real life that will tell you other wise. That mankind was all sweetness and light until some one tricked/corrupted someone else and then the whole thing went to hell. I think every one should go back and read my original post carefully. It's a game. The Horrors are part of that game. They are set up in that game to never be confronted (from what I know) directly. They are some of the ones pulling the strings behind the sceens. They are the 4th world equivalent of a evil Mega Corp. As for the Horrors not fitting in Shadowrun. I recant my pass statement that they don't fit in a cyberpunk setting. sure they do. If you realize that part of cyberpunk is about abuse of power. Just have the right GM. Thanos |
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Jan 20 2004, 02:01 AM
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#539
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Agreed. Actually in the Horrors sourcebook, the flavor text for Ysrgrthe (Aina's special friend) takes the form of a letter penned by Ysrgrthe in which he argues that he and his buddies are just doing what they do, but the worst "evil" in the world is actually all the (meta)human races. "Without us, you Name-Givers would be at each others' throats...We give you something you can look down upon, a dark foil to contrast with your imagined superiority. Without us, you would have to look into your own souls and see the ugliness there. "...We are not the evil ones. You are." |
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Jan 20 2004, 02:42 AM
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#540
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I like Ysrgrthe.
~J |
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Jan 20 2004, 04:17 AM
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#541
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Yea, though we walk through the valley of the shadow of death, we will fear no evil, for we are the evillest sons of bitches in the valley...
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Jan 20 2004, 04:08 PM
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#542
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
*feels sad because no one answered his post*
Just a random note, I think Herald needs to take that spoiler thing out of his sig. I can't tell you how many times I've done that. I just can't resist looking! *Sigh* I've obviously been marked by a horror for a lifetime of openning spoiler tags. |
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Jan 20 2004, 06:41 PM
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#543
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Don't worry too much, I'm still figuring out the full contexts of my Mark. So far, I can't project any direct pain, suffering, or lotto numbers; but I can enjoy the futile struggling you experience over these forums.
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Jan 20 2004, 07:45 PM
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#544
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
ROTFL |
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Jan 20 2004, 10:21 PM
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#545
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Speaking of which, did you change that spoiler tag? Because now it just makes my screen scroll up and down a quarter inch. Must be a bug, I'll keep clicking it 'til it works.
*Edit: clicking on the tag down here opens the tag at the top of the page. Tricky...* |
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Jan 20 2004, 10:23 PM
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#546
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Hitting a spoiler tag opens the first spoiler with that ID. This only seems to apply when used in a sig (quotes seem to create new spoiler IDs. Find my first post on a page if you want to open them.
[edit]Good, you found it[/edit] |
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Jan 20 2004, 10:51 PM
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#547
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
I kept clicking, but I think I've just crossed the line into insanity... Moo. |
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Dec 14 2004, 04:21 PM
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#548
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Target Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 6-December 04 From: Wichita Falls, Tejas Member No.: 6,872 |
Have yall read the Aztlan book? If you read it and then compare to Earthdawn you can see that the Big A is being ran by a Horror construct. IE being ran by a Horror. So just by happens-stance you throw some willing PCs into the New Mexico (HAHA bad pun) you could see the affects of a horror on a group in SR if that can even get into the giant ziggurat of doom, The Aztechnology Pyramid.
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Dec 14 2004, 04:28 PM
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#549
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Damn, is it that time of year again already? Normally we save the "Go Horrors! Beat Humans!" debate until New Year's...
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Dec 14 2004, 04:30 PM
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#550
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Indeed. Xavroc, hold yer horses! We've another two weeks yet.
~J |
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