Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. Options

[Johnny Jacks]

Well, apparently the answer Red Brick has reached is that yes we can beat them... but the Earth isn't going to fare so well in the final battle: http://www.equinox-rpg.com/

[Wounded Ronin]

Well, apparently the answer Red Brick has reached is that yes we can beat them... but the Earth isn't going to fare so well in the final battle: http://www.equinox-rpg.com/

You mean beatt he them.

[looks2ce]

I just finished reading this thread. Whole.


One thing I did not find mentioned is that all of the Earthdawn Sourcebooks (except Thera) take place in Barsaive. Barsaive is one single province (former) of the Theran Empire. All of Barsaive is contained in the Ukraine area.

Thus, all of the Named Horrors (Chantrel's, Taint, Nebis, Ubyr, Bonecrown, et al) including Verjigorm himself are simply those WIDELY known about in Barsaive in the Fourth Age. The Horrors Sourcebook is written as an explanatory text, giving an overview of known Named Horrors active in Barsaive at the time.

There are many more in Barsaive, let alone across the world. There are some hints that the Barsaivian region (and Thera itself) were targeted more heavily by the Horrors because of the levels of magic in those areas, but the world is a large place, and there were many, many more horrors across this planet.

I believe Ressurect (Thread) is an 8th Circle Nethermantic Spell...

.conal.

[Joe Chummer]

Re: the idea of 3 days vs. 2,227 years

Considering that the Horrors can only freely cross over once mana levels reach a certain threshold, and seeing as how mana is created and sustained by life and living beings, then I postulate:

(Population [in billions]) x (average amount of mana generated per person, usually 1) x (mana cycle flux multiplier, i.e. what position in the mana cycle we are: 0 = no magic AT ALL) = current overall mana level (greater than or equal to 1 means an Awakened period)

I may be wrong, but I'd like to think there are more people living on Earth in 2070 than there were in the Pre-Scourge days: the 2070s have more technology to feed people, keep people alive longer, and the culture is more sexually oriented than it was in the past and thus producing more babies on average (and thus more population).

So, let's say that mana cycle needs to reach an overall threshold of 10 in order for the Horrors to pass through. Let's also say there were 2 billion people in the world when the Book of Harrow was found, and the mana flux was around a 4:

2 x 1 x 4 = mana level of 8

Then, a few hundred years later, the mana flux increases to 5:

2 x 1 x 5 = mana level of 10 = Scourge occurs

Fast forward to 2011, pre-Awakening. Population 8 billion (estimated):

8 x 1 x .1 = mana level of 0.8; mana cycle is far too low for Awakening to take place.

Then, Post-Awakening, 2011:

8 x 1 x 1 = mana level of 8
8 x 1 x 1.1 = mana level of 8.8
8 x 1 x 1.2 = mana level of 9.6
8 x 1 x 1.3 = mana level of 10.4

Scourge 2.0 happens without the mana threshold needing to rise very high at all.

Which means, by extrapolation when magic rises to 4th world levels (and factoring in a few billion casualties from Scourge 2.0):

6 x 1 x 4 = 24

...which is more than twice the initial Horror threshold. Looks like if enough people manage to survive through the inital stages of Scourge 2.0, as the level of mana continues to rise, the hole between our plane and the Horrors' plane will become so large that Verjigorm and all of the worst Named Horrors ever known will be as tame puppies by comparison.

If my theory is indeed valid, I'd be pissing my pants about now.

[Ravor]

Well, although I'm in the camp that says the Horrors would eat all of our souls and would use our pretty technology to help them do it there is a flaw in your logic, namely that pre-Sourge Fourth World Magic had probably done at least as much as Sixth World medicine to help the population so we can't base any meaningful numbers off population.


However with that said, remember that the Mana Cycle has been actively fucked around with in the Sixth World, starting with the Great Ghost Dance and only getting worse, so the Horrors could start crossing over enmass at any time, probably sooner rather than later since the Bug Spirits were the last sign of doom in the Fourth World.

[Joe Chummer]

...there is a flaw in your logic, namely that pre-Sourge Fourth World Magic had probably done at least as much as Sixth World medicine to help the population so we can't base any meaningful numbers off population.

Magical healing aside, I can't even fathom the pre-Scourge 4th World being anywhere NEAR as populous as the 6th World. Think of how many people lived on the planet just 200 years ago (1 billion) vs. how many live on the planet NOW (7 billion) vs. how population growth estimates figure there will be in 2040 (9 billion). There is a BIG disparity between those numbers. Even factoring in how many people died in the VITAS outbreaks, that's STILL a lot of fragging people alive in 2070.

[Cthulhudreams]

Magic just doesn't given you the capability to grow more food which limits what you can realistically do. Anyway the descriptions of the 4th world point to a fedual/renassince society. Giving a population of ~600 million.

However, most living stuff in the world is bacteria. Seriously, there is so much bacteria it makes everything else irrelevant. Add in fungi, and you're talking enough biomass to cover the earth 40 meters deep. As you can see, the number of humans is completely irrelevant.

Also the 6th world would clean the horrors clock so hard it hurts, unless the horrors lucked out and got the nuclear weapons switch first, but that would just result in a nil all draw.

If the humans knew they were coming, well, gatling laser rifles with unlimited power being beamed off orbital satellites is just better than swords.

[Kagetenshi]

the culture is more sexually oriented than it was in the past and thus producing more babies on average (and thus more population).

We have decoupled sex from baby-making. If anything's going to drive something like "more babies", it's probably going to be the massive drop in infant mortality; today you get a family with two children instead of a family with nine children, two of whom survived childhood.

~J

[Ravor]

Umm Cthulhudreams you do realize that only some of the Horrors would even care about your "laser rifle", and some would die for a time before simply getting back up again.

Hell, given the nature of the Horrors, you can't even claim that space is denied to them, sure they might not be able to cross over in space now that Fourth Edition has made it a Mana Void as opposed to a Warp of alien mana but the physical ones at least could live there as easily as humans can.

As for going the nuke route, ... sure ... scroached Earth is always the way to go, even if it doesn't do a damned thing other than remove the Horror's favorite food source from the planet. Good work.

[cndblank]

Most of the Horrors don't seem to be inteligent at all.

They swarm over eat their fill and leave when the magic level drops.

It is like they are bugs waiting for the fruit on a peach tree to get ripe.

When it does they swarm in till nothing remains but the pits.

Now what happens if the peaches started swatting the bugs back?

They would find a different tree to go eat at.



I mean before Metahumanity was limited to the magic talent they had available to them.

Now it has mass production baby! Ares proved with the Bugs.

Now the Mundanes using drones and the like can do some serious harm even before you start talking nukes.



The bad part would be the really smart ones that were powerful enough to come over early and stay late.

The ones that are expert at taking control of their victims.

If they can take over the key people they would do unholy damage to the entire world.

I could almost see them wanting the Kaers to be built. It gave them play area none of the lesser horrors could penetrate and after a harvest you always make sure there are enough seeds left for the next harvest.

I will also say one thing. Playing against someone way under your weight class doesn't prepare you for a serious game changer.

The Horrors have had their way for cycle after cycle.

Now technology is changing so fast we can not keep up. You expect a dark spirit to be able to? They can not even enter the Matrix and they can not rig a drone. They would have to work through tools.

I wonder if the Matrix crashes could be someone trying to prune metahumanity before they get too far a head of the curve.

[Ravor]

Uh-huh, only problem is that the Horrors aren't spirits per say and that the only way Ares "deals" with the bugs is by allying with some of the hives "back home".

[Joe Chummer]

Most of the Horrors don't seem to be intelligent at all.

You have to realize, the only Horrors on record are those that were experienced AFTER the Scourge-level of mana went down. In other words, even 100 years after the Scourge, only a few of the Named Horrors were able to stick around. Ghost only knows how powerful the Horrors were that ravaged our world at the very peak of the mana cycle, before the ebbing of mana forced most of them to return to their home plane.

So to extend the metaphor, the peach might fight back against the bugs, but it won't be long before human-sized, human-intelligent bugs come, step on the peach, and then laugh maniacally about it while kicking its crushed remains across the burning orchard.

[Joe Chummer]

However, most living stuff in the world is bacteria. Seriously, there is so much bacteria it makes everything else irrelevant. Add in fungi, and you're talking enough biomass to cover the earth 40 meters deep. As you can see, the number of humans is completely irrelevant.

Except, given the numbers in my equation, a metahuman produces 1 unit of mana. The amount of bacteria, fungi, etc. that you would need to produce 1 unit of mana is a staggering number. A whole colony of a billion mindless, mundane bacteria would only produce perhaps 1 trillionth (or less) of a unit of mana.

Also, the amount of bacteria, fungi,and other flora and fauna in the world all relatively remains the same, since the course of nature tends to even things out due to predator/prey habits. But humanity, we're the only things that keep growing exponentially because we have no real predators, none that we can't devise some technology to easily defend ourselves from. So in this sense, the world remains the same; it is only ourselves (and the number of us) that change.

[Ancient History]

Damn, I thought the dead weren't supposed to rise for another week and change.

[Wounded Ronin]

I just finished reading this thread. Whole.

Wow. As long as you're going to do that, you also owe it to yourself to look for posts by someone called Creepwood and his proposals for a more "realistic" way of playing Shadowrun, from many years back. There's some pretty awesome stuff in the archives of DSF.

[toturi]

You have to realize, the only Horrors on record are those that were experienced AFTER the Scourge-level of mana went down. In other words, even 100 years after the Scourge, only a few of the Named Horrors were able to stick around. Ghost only knows how powerful the Horrors were that ravaged our world at the very peak of the mana cycle, before the ebbing of mana forced most of them to return to their home plane.

So to extend the metaphor, the peach might fight back against the bugs, but it won't be long before human-sized, human-intelligent bugs come, step on the peach, and then laugh maniacally about it while kicking its crushed remains across the burning orchard.

That's correct and we are the metahuman bugs that will come along to step on the Horror peaches and burn down their orchard.

[Ravor]

Only in your wildest dreams.

[toturi]

Only in your wildest dreams.

Precisely true, since Horrors can only exists in metahumanity's wildest dreams. In the tamer dreams, Horrors don't even dare to show up.

[Ravor]

Thanks ya'll just made my day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Joe Chummer]

That's correct and we are the metahuman bugs that will come along to step on the Horror peaches and burn down their orchard.

Good luck hoofing it to whatever sick and twisted plane the Horrors come from.

I'll make sure to give your meat body a proper burial, and I'll send your ma a note saying you went out a hero.

[toturi]

Good luck hoofing it to whatever sick and twisted plane the Horrors come from.

I'll make sure to give your meat body a proper burial, and I'll send your ma a note saying you went out a hero.

Sorry, my ma's little boy's bringing back for his ma a necklace made from Horror heads. She loves such things. She's already got a pair of dancing shoes from Horror leather.

And that sick twisted plane? It'd be coming here, that's how the Horrors can cross over, so no worries about the commute to work.

[Kagetenshi]

Wow. As long as you're going to do that, you also owe it to yourself to look for posts by someone called Creepwood and his proposals for a more "realistic" way of playing Shadowrun, from many years back. There's some pretty awesome stuff in the archives of DSF.

Unfortunately (if understandably) the mods deleted the true gem, the "What Would Xena Do?" thread that was a beautifully incomprehensible call for the community to engage in mass piracy.

I do want to reiterate the observation that I made some time ago that faith in humanity's victory seems to be inversely correlated with knowledge of Earthdawn. I mention voting for the humans on the first page; let's just say that that was no longer my opinion by the time this thread reached its climax on New Year's (or was that the Kaers thread? I'm too lazy to look up the dates). This may be a message of some kind.

~J

[Joe Chummer]

Sorry, my ma's little boy's bringing back for his ma a necklace made from Horror heads. She loves such things. She's already got a pair of dancing shoes from Horror leather.

And that sick twisted plane? It'd be coming here, that's how the Horrors can cross over, so no worries about the commute to work.

The plane of the Horrors doesn't come here, per se. There is a barrier or a gap, if you will, between our world and the Horror's plane. As the mana level rises, this barrier gets weaker (or the gap gets smaller, depending on what metaphor you prefer), and eventually, the barrier is weak enough that the Horrors can pass through from their plane onto ours. And the way I understand it, you cannot walk through the tear from one plane to the other, as it's more akin to an astral metaplane than a parallel, physical world. Thus the only way to reach the Horror's plane is by passing through the barrier astrally, and -- in a sense -- undertaking a metaplanar quest to the Horror's plane.

Now, what I don't think you understand is that Horrors taint astral space to the point that even casting magic (in the meat) in a tainted area without a spell matrix can make a magician go completely mad or even kill them. This is the same reason why magicians in the 4th world couldn't astrally project (you can access astral space using various spirit powers, but that's a different story). It's not that magicians COULDN'T project, it's just that the Horror taint in astral space would kill or irreparably twist even the most powerful of magicians.

Now, imagine that the very presence of a Horror in OUR astral space polluting it to the point where you go mad (or worse) just leaving by your meat body behind where the taint occurs. Then, imagine crossing from this plane to the Horror's plane, where suddenly you've gone from a few specks of Horror-tainted astral space to an entire metaplane fills with twisted creatures. Not even taking into account the mana twisting that has surely driven you mad a dozen times over, this is akin to a drunk mouse slathered with fish oil walking right into a fenced in yard where a million cats live.

No matter how many dice you roll (and keeping in mind that your astral form has already gone completely mad), there is no way in hell you would ever survive that.

And no, you can't bring nukes with you on the astral.

[toturi]

And no, you can't bring nukes with you on the astral.

Oh, but I do understand.

What you don't understand is that metahumans are already perfectly capable of tainting astral space ourselves and we do not become mad or perhaps we are already mad. If they come over, they become just as mad because our taint is not their taint, the taint is aspected to metahumanity. Metahumans are more than capable of twisting and tainting without the Horrors, if they do cross over, it is even better! 4th World magic is not 6th World magic. 4th World magic didn't have to deal with the aftereffects of the Holocaust and nuclear explosions. You are assuming that Horrors can even survive in our tainted 6th World. Well, it is buttfucked time for Horrors, we have already made our World a living hell. It is not that we cannot cross over here, it is when they do, they become sitting ducks. Literally our World is the anti-Horror metaplane. Pain and suffering is the hallmark of metahumanity, Horrors don't get to choose to inflict pain and suffering, but metahumanity chooses to do so and we make our mortal lives full of pain and suffering. The Horrors are simply a pale shadow of the reflection of metahumanity's evil. Not even taking into account our mortal twisting of mana that has surely driven them mad a dozen times over, this is akin to taking a bevy beautiful naked women into bar full of horny drunken men. The only thing is to decide is the manner of intercourse. We have already won, Earth just need to be destroyed to convince them of it.

The Earthdawn rules are not SR rules. And SR rules keep on changing and evolving. By the time the Horrors can cross over, we have already changed the rules again. No matter how many dice they roll, they can't ever survive that in this hell we call Earth.

Also as the mana level raises, astral space can become physical and given heightened mana levels, nuclear weapons can be shot right through into their metaplane.

[Joe Chummer]

Oh, but I do understand.

What you don't understand is that metahumans are already perfectly capable of tainting astral space ourselves and we do not become mad or perhaps we are already mad. If they come over, they become just as mad because our taint is not their taint, the taint is aspected to metahumanity. Metahumans are more than capable of twisting and tainting without the Horrors, if they do cross over, it is even better! 4th World magic is not 6th World magic. 4th World magic didn't have to deal with the aftereffects of the Holocaust and nuclear explosions. You are assuming that Horrors can even survive in our tainted 6th World. Well, it is buttfucked time for Horrors, we have already made our World a living hell. It is not that we cannot cross over here, it is when they do, they become sitting ducks. Literally our World is the anti-Horror metaplane. Pain and suffering is the hallmark of metahumanity, Horrors don't get to choose to inflict pain and suffering, but metahumanity chooses to do so and we make our mortal lives full of pain and suffering. The Horrors are simply a pale shadow of the reflection of metahumanity's evil. Not even taking into account our mortal twisting of mana that has surely driven them mad a dozen times over, this is akin to taking a bevy beautiful naked women into bar full of horny drunken men. The only thing is to decide is the manner of intercourse. We have already won, Earth just need to be destroyed to convince them of it.

The Earthdawn rules are not SR rules. And SR rules keep on changing and evolving. By the time the Horrors can cross over, we have already changed the rules again. No matter how many dice they roll, they can't ever survive that in this hell we call Earth.

Also as the mana level raises, astral space can become physical and given heightened mana levels, nuclear weapons can be shot right through into their metaplane.

Background count (i.e the warping of astral space by metahumans and/or the environment) and Horror-tainted astral space are not even remotely the same thing.

Sure metahumanity is no stranger to suffering, but they do not subsist on the suffering and pain of others. Some may enjoy it, yes, but you cannot EAT someone else's pain and suffering for breakfast (or lunch, dinner, afternoon tea, or otherwise). Horrors, on the other hand, thrive on causing pain and torment. They are the most sadistic entities that we even know of. A metahuman might experience pain and loss in the Sixth World as it stands, but just imagine a Horror's very presence causing you to suffer delusions so horrid that you want to peel your brain out of your skull with your bare hands, and you're driven to do just that. The kind of visions the crew members in "Event Horizon" saw don't even begin to scratch the surface. And the Horror doesn't just feed off of this mental anguish it inflicts. It strengthens the Horror. And the Horror enjoys it. The Horror LAUGHS. And then it kills you just for its own amusement.

Also as the mana level raises, astral space can become physical and given heightened mana levels, nuclear weapons can be shot right through into their metaplane.

When it comes right down to it, it seems to me your side of the conversation comes across more like fanatical jingoism than based on any actual, established game-world mechanics. Whenever I read one of these "We'll kill ALL the Horrors!" posts, I keep hearing in my head (to the tune of the "Team America: World Police" theme song): "Sixth World! FRAG YEAH! Here we come to save the motherfraggin day, YEAH!"