Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. Options

[toturi]

Uh, they won... by blowing up the entire planet! That sound suspiciously like someone blowing up their own house just to put out a fire. It may have worked, but losing their home doesn't sound like humanity won.

Survival and winning are two different things, omae.

You are right. Survival and winning are 2 different things. They beat the demons - that's winning. They are still around - that's survival. The planet being destroyed does not factor into either winning or survival. They could have won but not survived. They could have survived but not won. But they won and survived. The demons aren't around and they are - that sounds like humanity won, chummer.

[Cthulhudreams]

This is assuming that the Horrors' numbers are finite.

And seeing as how they are not physical beings until they manifest in our world, I don't believe you can apply physical world logic such as the concept of numbers on such a race.

I've always pictures the Horrors, as they exist in their native plane, to be more along the lines of spiritual/astral amoebas: they simply divide into two, four, six, etc. different copies (or mutations) of themselves whenever they feel the need to have more than one of them in existence, and thus their numbers are limitless (unless it is even conceptually possible to collapse an entire metaplane at once, and good luck trying to figure out how to do THAT).

If their numbers are limitless, how is there even vegetation once the people come out of the Kaers?

It seriously don't stack up - if the number of eaters was limitless, every square meter of earth would have had an eater in it, and those eaters would have eaten everything, but the inhabitants of the Kaers come out into a wilderness, not a blasted wasteland with no organic products at all (which would have killed them fairly quicky with the absence of any way to get more O2 into the atmosphere.

It's the same for the elves, if their defences held out the number of opponents wasn't limitless.

Given those two things didn't happen, it's pretty safe to assume that their are not actually that many horrors (there might be hundreds of millions maybe? probably less?), and many things have happened in history that are actually more destructive. The impact that created the Manson crater in the US for example. You'll need some evidence to back up the claim that their numbers are limitless, or even in the billions, otherwise the rate of consumption would have exceeded the rate of replinishment and all organics would have been consumed.

Given that many of those horrors in those millions don't know how to operate a ranged weapon, humanity can probably win.

[3278]

Then the horrors have to come through there, then you kill them all as they stream out into you. If laser rifles arn't enough, you turn the power sats away from their intended targets and towards the hellmouth so they pour out into solar fire. If the horrors have a physical presence they will be unable to survive that.

An enormous number of horrors don't have physical presences. Those who exist only as mana will come through, corrupt the minds of those controlling the giant hellfire machines, and your plan stops working. Oh, and now some Horrors have control of your giant hellfire machines.

If you were particularly nasty you'd gene engineer every human and animal and plant to feature the radiation resistance from some of the more tenacious bacteria that can reassamble their own RNA/DNA when attacked by radiation, then nuke the site, or the area around to site so the horrors cannot escape.

Based on what we currently know about strains like Deinococcus radiodurans and the mechanisms by which it is able to repair its DNA, it is highly unlikely that those mechanisms could be applied to every single organism on the planet, or even "every animal and plant." [Applying these mechanisms to only animals and plants would quickly lead to a world devoid of life, since without bacteria - including bacteria present within the animal and plant organisms, such as the cyanobacteria which make photosynthesis, and thus all complex life, possible - nearly all life would cease, very, very quickly.] Then there's the question of delivery: how are you going to get these modifications into every species? Some sort of retrovirus? And do you think there's a single retrovirus that could be applied to every single type of plant and animal? Or are you going to engineer different retroviruses for every one of hundreds of millions of species, or tens of millions of different types? Then you still have the question of the non-radioactive effects of detonating not one - since they don't come out all at once - but several nuclear devices in succession over the course of thousands of years. There's nothing about this plan that's practicable.

Thats the other thing - if the blood elves can survive by reducing their essential spirit...

That's not what they did.

Presumably the horrors all (or at least a substantial minority) come over to the earth when the barrier is down.

No, that's not at all what occurs.

Yeah it just seems slightly weird. The blood elves couldn't use magic because of the horror taint...

They could use magic just fine. Using raw magic, without shielding themselves from the horrors with robes or spell matrices, gave the horrors a route of entry into their minds, as it did for everyone at the time. [With the possible exception of Great Dragons, who had access to a type of magic unusable to the other races.]

I can't believe someone named "Cthulhudreams" thinks this problem can be solved with force. These are immensely powerful entities from the farthest reaches of the metaplanes, beings of evil and darkness whose nature we can only begin to comprehend, who show every sign of being, collectively, vastly more numerous, powerful, and intelligent than metahumanity. They bring madness and death wherever they walk and are inimical to the nature of life, embodiments of entropy and decay. I don't believe they're all-powerful, but the notion that they can be destroyed with these sorts of solutions flies in the face of all published information about their nature, their number, their behaviors, and the levels of sacrifice necessary to do anything more than hide from them.

And there's really no guarantee that in the tens of thousands of years since we least encountered them, they haven't built hellfire machines of their own. Technology ain't just for metahumans.

[nezumi]

It seems there are some different assumptions from the getgo. To restate them...'

1) We know the planet was overrun, presumably completely overrun by Horrors.
2) Reading the dragon creation myths, it is said that Verjigorm creating effectively an infinite number of horrors, suggesting either true infinity, or so many it's beyond counting.

Any plan that assumes a finite number, especially a number fewer than the number of humans, is, almost by definition, underestimating the enemy and, for the sake of good strategizing, should be discarded.

3) Horrors are tremendously diverse, and feed on a range of different things. Some feed on rock or bananas or plants. Some feed on other Horrors. Some feed on physical pain, some on emotional pain, or treason or whatever. The one unifying factor is they are destructive and 'bad' and even this rule isn't completely true since dragons are, strictly speaking, Horrors, and all name-givers (i.e. metahumans) are Horror spawn. So the lesson here is they offer a staggering diversity, so much so that we cannot easily anticipate what sort of tools will harm ALL of them.

4) All Horrors seem to be stopped by the methods used for Kaerns. Kaerns are a mix of magical technology plus physical barriers, so there are probably a finite number of actual attacks Horrors can use, although the precise number is not known to us. We do know there are some astral-only Horrors, and some physical-only Horrors, so shooting them all with gauss cannons is not going to be 100% effective.

5) We do not know what effect a background count has on a Horror. We DO know Horrors need a high astral to come over, and a lower astral count to stay here/survive. They can't go to space, and presumably places with no life at all are safer (although Earth has its own manasphre, which is very strong, so the assumption that killing all life on Earth would eliminate the Horrors is not a safe one).

6) Horrors can turn our own people with near-perfect efficiency and discretion, so depending on our people may be a dangerous assumption.


I think the single greatest step to protecting humans is to rediscover the secret of kaerns which, I suspect, has not been completely lost. Rediscover that and you have a baseline. Unlike before, we have the technology to efficiently set up many powerful kaerns, and to also invest in space. This gives us a baseline, however it will certainly exclude 90% of humanity. I wouldn't say it's a given humanity will survive, but it seems pretty likely.

The problem is, we don't know this technology ourselves, so we cannot speculate on how effective it is, if it can be made into personal armor, or weaponized. The other thing we have not considered is a more full study of horrors themselves. There are likely horrors that feed on other horrors and not humans. Capturing, breeding and using them could also be very effective as a defense, but is high-risk.

[Paul]

All Horrors seem to be stopped by the methods used for Kaerns.

Not exactly. Imagine the horrors as the ocean, and Kaerns as debris floating in the ocean. Spend enough time in the water and you'll end up water logged. Each horror varies, not only in how it manifests, but also the powers and strategies it uses to attack whatever it'd like.

Keep in mind that each horror consumes different things: some eat physical things like plants, and matter, others eat people and creatures, others feed on less tangible things like emotion, or feelings.

[Sixgun_Sage]

To expand on my earlier premise, you don't need a massive number of Runners to deal with the physical Horrors. They are such limited threats when you do conversions that it is a simple job for a single sammy or heavy weapons specialist to destroy packs of Gnashers and other physical types. This will have a massively negative effect on the major Named Horrors who feed on negative human emotion because it will be impossible, over the duration, to either keep what is happening a secret or paint the more physical horrors in a sympathetic light. Humanity, including the various metas, identify with things like them, and the Horrors are by definition other, once one news organization breaks the story the major players will have to take a stand creating a very hostile environment for the Named Horrors as they will be more readilly recognised and there actions reported to the relevant groups. Humanity is not unexperienced with metaplanar creepy crawlies in the 6th world. First the shadows react, then the press, then the major powers. It is an established pattern that we've gotten damn good at over the decades thanks to information sharing across global networks, don't believe me? Ares Firewatch performs regular attacks on the insect homeplane called The Hive.

[Kagetenshi]

Maybe I have difficulties understanding English. So please explain to me what those words I underlined mean.

"Toturi should send Kagetenshi large sums of money".

Nezumi: Kaers were successfully breached.

~J

[Ravor]

Sure, a mere pack of gnashers is going to be dead meat, but when the floodgates open and the Scrouge begins humanity won't be facing mere packs, they will be facing swarms akin to a plague of locust.

Don't you think that there were people in the Fourth World who wanted to bare their teeth at the Horrors and fight for their world? True Heroes who had access to flying mountains and other magical artifacts that were just as powerful as the pratical weapons (No, I don't consider nukes and killsats to really be a viable option against the Horrors enmass.) that the Sixth World can bring to bare? That the magics of the Fourth World couldn't help spread news and information between the nations at the time?


The basic nature of humanity hasn't changed, sure we have some new toys to play with, but remember that at the time of the Scrouge we are led to believe that everyone was Awakened and you can't throw a stone into the Dumpshock Pond without hitting a dozen threads about how it isn't fair that Magic has the upper hand against technology. (A viewpoint I do not happen to share, but alot of people seem to hold it.)

Oh and something that I think you may have forgotten is that Ares have been forced into trying to ally with some of the Bugs against other Hives so I don't really consider what they are doing as a good sign of what would happen when the Horrors arrive as you can't ally with a Horror.

*EDIT*

Well if I remember correctly Kagetenshi many or perhaps even most of the kaers where breached, but a few survived.

[Sixgun_Sage]

The problem is, Ravor, that the first years of Horror activity on any real scale will be the smaller, more tangible Horrors as the mana level needs to be higher for the Named Horrors and others reliant on more abstract means of existance to simply cross over. And you'll note I mentioned a single Sammy or heavy weapons specialist being able to take down packs, a fullscale team of runners (rigger, hacker, sam, mage and fire support) is the equivelant of a 4th world army, a rigger with drones is a massive force multiplier, as is a hacker coordinating the team over a tactical network, a mage acting in a support role can keep the firepower (heavy weapons and street sam) up and atleast slow down the opposition with well chosen spells. Metahumans may not be "better" than they where in the 4th age, but they have refined the techniques and technology of warfare, the science of splat, if you will, beyond what even the epic heroes of the 4th age could consider. Sure magic was more prevalent, but by the time the Named Horrors are an issue it will be in the 6th age as well, and in every other way 4th age was jumped up monkeys whereas the 6th age is fairly populous with heavilly augmented bastards with PhD's in Mayhem. It'll be a fight, no doubt, but in the end Vergis-whatsit (Seriously, do they come up with these names by slapping the keyboard with an open palm?) might as well change it's name to vegamite, because it'll be about as feared.

[Paul]

Ares Firewatch performs regular attacks on the insect homeplane called The Hive.

Uhm, can I get a source on this? Not to be that guy.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Uhm, can I get a source on this? Not to be that guy.

Street Magic , sidebar in the threats section and scattered in the fluff throughout same book. I don't have anything that says they have made pacts with other insects to do so, and if such is the case it is noteworthy in the fact that this is what Ares is willing to do to follow the enemy back to it's home and take the offensive, which as General Patton would tell you is the only way to win a war.

[Ravor]

I think you are seriously underestimating the people of the Fourth World, they were hardly "jumped up monkeys" and I disagree that a team of Runners is even close to an entire Fourth World army. Remember that the Fourth World is an age before our history and they supposedly had a fairly complex and "advanced" culture albeit using manatech as opposed to true technology. The "jumped up monkeys" as you call them came after the Scrouge when the Mana Levels faded to the point that everything simply stopped working and mankind had to start from stratch.


And sure, you'd have strange entities crossing over before the Scrouge, and I'd argue that the "Shadow Spirits" and perhaps even the "Shedim" are the first signs of the coming Horrors but pointing out humanity's reaction to the Bugs is not promising at all as the only people really fighting against the Hives have at least in part been co-opted by them. Hell, the Bugs were coming were the last warning sign that the Fourth World had before the Horrors started showing up and the Sixth World hasn't even started working on the kaer warding rituals so one had better hope that the damned book turns up and soon.

And remember, the Scrouge is probably gonig to come much, much eariler in the Mana Cycle this tiem around because of all of the twisted stuff that has gone on like the Great Ghost Dance (Which was taught to the NAN by a Half-Horror/Half-Immortal Elf scumbag.) and the Astral Remapping that Big A was doing, probably at the behast of Big D, so do you really trust him to keep the Horrors at bay when at the very least he had to know what Big A was doing woudl hasten the return of the Horrors in the first place?

[3278]

4) All Horrors seem to be stopped by the methods used for Kaerns.

Kaers, but yes, many of them did provide effective barriers to Horrors, although many were breached during the Scourge.

I think the single greatest step to protecting humans is to rediscover the secret of kaerns which, I suspect, has not been completely lost.

Definitely not. Much of the underlying "technology" is the same as that used for Great Dragons' lairs, which they certainly will know how to do still. And the non-dragon survivors of the 4th world will certainly remember the principles, as well.

This will have a massively negative effect on the major Named Horrors who feed on negative human emotion because it will be impossible, over the duration, to either keep what is happening a secret or paint the more physical horrors in a sympathetic light.

The Horrors don't need to remain secret in order to feed on negative emotion, and they certainly don't need to "paint the more physical horrors in a sympathetic light!" Pretty much everyone in the 4th world knew exactly what the Horrors were, but that doesn't stop you being marked, and it sure doesn't stop you feeling negative emotions.

Ares Firewatch performs regular attacks on the insect homeplane called The Hive.

Somewhere in the ED/SR canon mythos is a statement something like this: the home metaplane of the Invae [or insect spirits] would feel like a warm bath in comparison to the metaplane where the Horrors live. There is simply no comparison at all.

And you'll note I mentioned a single Sammy or heavy weapons specialist being able to take down packs, a fullscale team of runners (rigger, hacker, sam, mage and fire support) is the equivelant of a 4th world army...

Are you not familiar with Earthdawn? I ask because 4th world armies, at the height of the magic cycle, include people who can, you know, decimate square miles of landscape in a few minutes, all by themselves. If you read Barsaive at War, you'll see the level of sacrifice necessary to defeat just the few Horrors involved there, and the levels of force 4th world armies can bring to bear. Yes, our technology is impressive, and one-on-one, an SR character should be able to whup hard on the equivalent ED character, but our most powerful individuals are...well, they're the most powerful individuals from the 4th world, too.

It'll be a fight, no doubt, but in the end Vergis-whatsit (Seriously, do they come up with these names by slapping the keyboard with an open palm?) might as well change it's name to vegamite, because it'll be about as feared.

Okay. I guess it's pretty clear what your level of knowledge on the subject is.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Maybe I should rephrase, in terms of strategy, tactics and coordination, all acknowledged force multipliers, the denzens of the 4th age where essentially ignorant, their ranged weaponry was essentially dark ages where it was not magical and the ability to project power across a battlefield that modern firearms and artillery, especially the man portable variety is another massive force multiplier. Much has been made of the fact that the Scourge is going to come early this cycle, the problem is that atleast some of that has been mitigated by the fact that there is a new guardian at the gate in the form of the Big D himself, this stops nothing but it does give metahumanity time to prepare. Metahumanity will likely lose several initial battles, there is little doubt of that, but refinements we have made to our combat sciences will be the differance, and these are not things the Horrors will be able to easilly replicate, the constant state of internal strife amongst the Horrors between scourges is in fact a drain on them. It reduces their numbers, promotes a fundamental discord that makes high-level coordination effectively impossible and deprives them of time to consider new strategic and tactical methods. While individual Horrors may or may not show up with new abilities on the strategic level they'll be playing the same game they always have whereas humanity will be playing a game a couple generations foreward on the development curve.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Admittadly 3278, I play alot more shadowrun than earthdawn, mostly because the world makes more sense to me, but taking a comment at the end of my post as an example of my knowledge when said specific comment ws meant more in jest than anything else.... bad form. While individuals in earthdawn could level areas, these are fairly unique individuals IIRC, destruction on that level is industrialized in shadowrun.

[Ravor]

And once again I'll restate that you are vastly underestimating the abilities and intelligence of the Fourth World 3278 wasn't overstating things in his post above.

As for Big D, once again do you really trust him as "The Gatekeeper" when he had at least a semi-active claw in the very research that was appearently designed to hasten the return of the Horrors in the first place?

*EDIT 1.1*

Also I'd question the effectiveness of nuking or even carpet bombing areas, seems to me that the Toxic Landscapes that would be created would cause far more troubles for humanity then they would for the Horrors.

[Warlordtheft]

Maybe I should rephrase, in terms of strategy, tactics and coordination, all acknowledged force multipliers, the denzens of the 4th age where essentially ignorant, their ranged weaponry was essentially dark ages where it was not magical and the ability to project power across a battlefield that modern firearms and artillery, especially the man portable variety is another massive force multiplier. Much has been made of the fact that the Scourge is going to come early this cycle, the problem is that atleast some of that has been mitigated by the fact that there is a new guardian at the gate in the form of the Big D himself, this stops nothing but it does give metahumanity time to prepare. Metahumanity will likely lose several initial battles, there is little doubt of that, but refinements we have made to our combat sciences will be the differance, and these are not things the Horrors will be able to easilly replicate, the constant state of internal strife amongst the Horrors between scourges is in fact a drain on them. It reduces their numbers, promotes a fundamental discord that makes high-level coordination effectively impossible and deprives them of time to consider new strategic and tactical methods. While individual Horrors may or may not show up with new abilities on the strategic level they'll be playing the same game they always have whereas humanity will be playing a game a couple generations foreward on the development curve.

A warrior fights for himself, and by himself--a soldier fights for the guy next to him. That is one of the biggest differences between the armies of the pre-roman era (Do they ever describe how the 4th world armies fought) and post. In medieval times the warrior came back to some degree as the knight, and you also had the Japanese Samauri (Pre-mongol invasion).

[Sixgun_Sage]

Except I'm not underestimating them, Ravor, there are undoubtedly powerfull beings in the 4th age, but modern combat science isn't about brute force (it's just a usefull tool), it is about the ability to coordinate, respond, support and attack fluidly through the use of advanced communications, tactics and training that simply don't have a 4th age equivelant. That is why the 4th age are, comparatively, jumped up monkeys, that is why the horrors are an obsolete threat. And yes, on this instance I'm giving a dragon (heavens forbid) the benefit of the doubt, because there is no logical reason for the actions as stated in the books except for him to sincerely be trying to hold the pass as a delaying tactic.

[Sixgun_Sage]

A warrior fights for himself, and by himself--a soldier fights for the guy next to him. That is one of the biggest differences between the armies of the pre-roman era (Do they ever describe how the 4th world armies fought) and post. In medieval times the warrior came back to some degree as the knight, and you also had the Japanese Samauri (Pre-mongol invasion).

Samurai and knights are both examples of combat elites in leadership roles, both where forms of nobility (or atleast an elevated class) specially trained to physically lead as well as being specially trained in strategy and tactics. The fact they often engaged in combat was more a matter of psychology than strategy. Of course, the benefit of such psychology is that seeing leadership fighting is often a positive for the morale of the rank troops, and as Napolean famously believed, positive morale is a force multiplier.

[Ravor]

True to an extent, but the problem is that all of the combat science in the universe won't save you and your squad as the lines of communication break down, supply depots are overrun, ect, even modern armies have problems with rushing hoards and the answer is seldom to nuke your own people.

As for Big D, it seems to me that if he wanted to "ascend" to the realm of the Horrors, but wanted to carve out his own terms then the events of the books pretty much covers how one would do it, however, I have a really hard time giving him a benefit of a doubt when he was at the very least aware if not actively involved in Big A's research that helped hasten the Scrouge in the first place. One cannot have your cake and eat it too.

*EDIT*

Also something to consider is that even if Big D was one of the "good guys", not even Great Dragons are immune to being Horror Marked and it seems to me that he would fall to said marks sooner rather than later.

[3278]

Admittadly 3278, I play alot more shadowrun than earthdawn, mostly because the world makes more sense to me, but taking a comment at the end of my post as an example of my knowledge when said specific comment ws meant more in jest than anything else.... bad form.

I stand by it. Nothing you've said thus far convinces me that you possess a particularly thorough knowledge of the Earthdawn setting in general or the Horrors in specific. And there's nothing wrong with that! You don't have to know a lot about ED, but if you don't, I can't possibly take what you have to say on the subject as seriously as I would if you appeared to know more about what the Horrors are and what they represent. I could start talking about how nukes are the best ways to kill Elder Gods, but if I don't know that much about Elder Gods, it would be pretty ridiculous of me to start making claims about what will and will not kill them.

[Sixgun_Sage]

True to an extent, but the problem is that all of the combat science in the universe won't save you and your squad as the lines of communication break down, supply depots are overrun, ect, even modern armies have problems with rushing hoards and the answer is seldom to nuke your own people.

And how do the Horrors cause such breakdowns when the methods by which the transfer of supplies, communication and the like are absolutely forieng to them except as abstract concepts? The element of surprise will help them, that is why I'm willing to admit that they'll initially win battles, but they are missing several steps in the development of combat science and technology, this is a major problem. I'm not saying they are stupid, but even military minds like Eisenhower and Omar Bradley had difficulty comprehending the brilliance of Patton (who serves as the basis for much of modern military strategic and tactical thought) and they where his contemporaries. The Horrors have too much catchup to play over the duration.

I'm going to consider Dunkelzahn a neutral point from here on out, even if we believe he is just negotiating from a relative position of power, this is a negotiation between beings that think and act on timescales far longer than humans, which is in and of itself a delay. Mind you I'm not saying I trust your point Ravor, I'm merely pointing at that they serve the same purpose.

[Grinder]

And how do the Horrors cause such breakdowns when the methods by which the transfer of supplies, communication and the like are absolutely forieng to them except as abstract concepts? The element of surprise will help them, that is why I'm willing to admit that they'll initially win battles, but they are missing several steps in the development of combat science and technology, this is a major problem. I'm not saying they are stupid, but even military minds like Eisenhower and Omar Bradley had difficulty comprehending the brilliance of Patton (who serves as the basis for much of modern military strategic and tactical thought) and they where his contemporaries. The Horrors have too much catchup to play over the duration.

Horrors cant' create, but they can (and will) learn/ aquire new knowledge. And marking a few people who have good knowledge about military tactis and stuff probably helps a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sixgun_Sage]

Horrors cant' create, but they can (and will) learn/ aquire new knowledge. And marking a few people who have good knowledge about military tactis and stuff probably helps a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Except the Horrors view people as food, some might learn a little about tactics and technology but I doubt it would be much, would you take military advice from your cheeseburger?

[3278]

Except the Horrors view people as food, some might learn a little about tactics and technology but I doubt it would be much, would you take military advice from your cheeseburger?

They're also not stupid. While the dumbest of them - Gnashers, for instance - are nothing but ravenous beasts, the most intelligent of them are vastly more intelligent than the most intelligent human who ever lived, or indeed than the most intelligent of Great Dragons. They are certainly capable of learning from any mind they touch, and capable of comprehending what they learn, and capable of using what they learn to continue their own existences. Many of them have been shown to do precisely this, Mordom and Ysrthgrathe among them.