 I run with an idiot |
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 May 9 2006, 02:05 AM
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#26
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383  |
2 points. 1.) I kinda feel like chargen is already bean counting. A lot of times I take low Resources because otherwise I'll end up spending about 20 minutes making my physad and maybe an hour spending each last starting nuyen on equipment scattered throughout the sourcebooks. In other words I think the biggest source of beancounting is really the large amount of resources you get at chargen and not so much people forgetting to bring a cigarette lighter. 2.) If the players are serious about having Batman levels of preparedness there only needs to be bean counting once. As soon as they put together their D.I.C.K. list nobody really needs to think about it anymore besides for adding the occasional useful item. |
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May 9 2006, 02:19 AM
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#27
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Yes, because that's a D&D phenomenon, not a "jackass GM" phenomenon. A good balance between "the character would know/have/think of that" and the "magically have anything you need" isn't all that hard to strike. I tend to go with the notion that if it's pretty common, or related to the character in some way, they have it (and I'm talking fairly trivial things here, like a lighter in the case of "common" and lockpicks in the case of a "thief"). If it's something that requires a fairly good expenditure, I have them deduct that total from their monies. No big deal. However, I won't just grant, in the case of a D&D party, free healing potions because they didn't buy any in town even though I mentioned that there was an apothecary. Or in SR, a HMG on the notion that "their characters would have been carrying one". It's harder to describe in writing than it actually ends up being during games. |
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May 9 2006, 02:57 AM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
"But my character is a healing-dedicated cleric! Of *course* he has some of those 1st edition herbal healing droughts that cure 1d3 damage per day when you drink one!" "But my character is a healing-dedicated cleric! Of *course* he has sterile bandages and isopropyl rubbing alcohol so there's no way that anyone will get complications off of their wounds!" "But my character is a healing-dedicated cleric! Of *course* he knows how to make potions out of mushrooms that will totally cure the fighter of the poison before he dies!" That's what I'd be afraid of. |
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May 9 2006, 03:18 AM
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#29
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
my responses
1: we're playing 3.5 not first ed 2: fair enough 3: make a heal check |
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May 9 2006, 03:59 AM
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#30
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
1d3 damage and bandages? I woulden't begrudge him those.
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May 9 2006, 04:23 AM
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#31
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
This thread is making me chuckle because I had put up those three examples as annoying bullshit, but then 2 GMs log on and are like, "Hmm, most of those are reasonable."
I guess I'm just a bigger, "it must be noted on your character sheet" purist than most GMs. Well, that's good to know; I wouldn't have guessed it otherwise. |
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May 9 2006, 04:44 AM
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#32
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I don't play D&D3.5. My first reaction to the mention of a Dragon with 40 AC was that that dragon must be a wingless quadrapalegic with a hide like wet toilet paper to be so easy to injure.
However, I'd certainly let a cleric carry an item called a "first aid kit" which may contain bandages, alcohol, and maybe even a 0d6 damage scalpel. |
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May 9 2006, 04:46 AM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 2-December 05 Member No.: 8,033 |
All the GM's I've played with have gone by that rule (if you didn't write it down, you don't have it) In DnD you start with a pari of clothes (which includes boots in the decription) and said clothes do not count against oyur weight total. So for all intenets and purposes everycharacter has clothes all the time.
Shadowrun GMs usually give out a set of free clothes. Smelly tshirt. Faded jeans and some second hand combat boots. I don't really agree with that, and I like DnD's approach ot it. If yo want something special besides day to day street clothes, suits tuxedos etc... then yeah. those cost extra. But everything else had better be written down.. Add to the fact that shadowrun is situational. load out will change everytime you walk out the door. From getting munchies, to infiltrating the corps christmas party, to robbing banks and data steals you are not always going to have a toolkit and an assault rifle, a flashlight and field biological kit. Sometimes its just a pistol, two hairpins, and some chewing gum. |
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May 9 2006, 04:58 AM
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#34
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
There is always the good old seperate availability rolls for a toothbrush and a tube of toothpaste. There comes a point where the little things are just too small to worry about. Which is why the kit idea for small items that should be grouped together is not a bad idea. The electronics tool kit contains every tool you'll need when working on electronics. The medkit contains every tool you'll need for basic first aid. The personal hygiene kit contains every tool your need to keep yourself clean and hygienic. Ect.
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May 9 2006, 05:00 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
Alright i have listened to what you all have said, and while yes with some time this person might learn, but a lot of his "stupidity" is due to childishness and being a sheltered teenager. He is our "Bean counter" when it comes to pillaging the bodies of the fallen for better or saleable gear. He's the person that will suggest trying to bunjee jump to get to an objective when there is no way to get above the objective short of a helo and that cant be used due to obvious surface to air emplacements.
The contact was his landlord of his only doss, and he was trying to fence stolen drones through the Renraku arcology to buy his new ones. Really and truly he is sometimes worse than the 8 year old son of the GM who plays when the GM is running his D&D game. I would point him to the Clue files except that he is to dense and thinks to highly of himself to think that they apply to him. As for drowning him like an unwanted puppy, dont tempt me, several times we have tried to kill his character and even more have i wanted to put an end to his life IRL due to the stupid frustration he has caused. In DNA/DOA we left him knocked out by DMSO Narcojet capsule rounds in a room where there was also a sleeping beast who had been put out with DMSO Gamma scopalamine. Maria Murcurial we sent him in through the bottom door and he pulled hand of god. Queen Euphoria he didnt even play, thank the gods. |
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May 9 2006, 05:40 AM
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#36
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
next run, when you get a reason (excuse) shoot him if ya aren't the GM... he has already used his HoG
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May 9 2006, 05:53 AM
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#37
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Don't be passive aggressive. Be honest with the player.
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May 9 2006, 06:13 AM
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#38
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
There is at least one specific "if it's not on the sheet they don't have it" quote somewhere in the AD&D text. It might even be in 3e somewhere, i couldn't say. So it isn't limited to D&D, but there are very deep roots there.
The big chunks? Maybe a bit in SR3, but that definately not in SR4 where they got rid of the non-linear steps in the chargen Resource progression and replaced it with 1BP = 5K increments. The big parts get straightened away quickly. It's the last 2K that chews up the time. But in both another culprit is the spend it or loose it rule helping out the "if it's not on the list you don't have it" mentality. They helped a bit in SR4 with allowing the use of the last 1200 :nuyen: (in multiples of 100) to convert to solid cash with the higher Lifestyles, but with the lower lifestyles it is effectively back to use it or lose it. Really, what is the harm of just letting someone keep as cash whatever falls under 5K? In fact what the hell is really the harm of letting anyone that wants something mundane and under 100 :nuyen: just freaking have it. If you feel you must track cash track it in the 100's of :nuyen:. Or 500's or higher for that matter if it suits the level your characters are at. Really, if someone is shelling out several K a month for a Lifestyle, and more for contact upkeep, do they really need to track dropping 10 :nuyen: for a bowl of ramen noodles or 50 :nuyen: for a box of bandages? You are interested in encouraging them to think their way through a puzzle? Why not let them worry about the puzzle senario itself when it comes up instead of trying to guess ahead of time what might be out there and having a freaking list the length of an arm. They come up against some obstacle they free think about what they could try to over come that. Then either look at their character and fairly judge whether they'd have something like that or not. Flashlight? No-fucking-brainer; yes. Charles & Di Commemerative China Plate? Not so much. Wad of chewing gum or a zippo? I don't think i would if they were in their vehicle, and especially if they weren't at home. Hey, why not...but go ahead and roll for it if you like. Ya, you heard me. You can't judge if someone would have a freaking piece of gum or a lighter then let the dice decide for you. After all it is the character that is suppose to know to get this stuff, NOT the player. Or if they are somewhere where they can buy the stuff have them go over to the vending machine and get it....and don't even worry about them knocking the cash of their bean counting total!
Why bother with it at all? It is taking the focus OFF the solution of the puzzle senario of the moment, and dampening creativity. EDIT: Ya, that's a bit on the RANT side of things. :P Please try not to take it too personally WR, it isn't really you. It's my pet opinion of the month. |
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May 9 2006, 06:53 AM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Stuff like that is included in a lifestyle. Taking it out of the house with you on a run is not. I'm definitely a "if it ain't written it don't exist" GM most of the time. If something is relatively minor and doesn't appear on the equipment charts, but is something the chracter would have (a lighter for a smoker) then sure. But if it's something they could buy just by thumbing through the charts then no way. I also tend to ask "what are you bringing with you" whenever the general situation changes (social to run time to subterfuge time etc.). That's their cue to take a quick mental inventory and decide what they want. If it turns out they want something they don't have written down that wouldn't be covered by lifestyle and/or is on the charts, they'd better swing by the Motts 5 and 10 to pick one up on the way. If that's being a D.I.C.K. then almost every GM I've ever played with is one. GMs that use the touchy-feely "you can have what you want" crap are P.U.S.S.Y.s (I'll try and figure a meaning for that acronym later ;) ). |
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May 9 2006, 12:52 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 20-April 06 From: La Islas de Republica de Bananas (Philippines) Member No.: 8,488 |
Hmmm ... as a long-time GM I tend to be a bit more lax to newer players, but when you have some rules-lawyers around, sometimes you just have to start bean-counting. As an example, I have this player who refuses to write anything on the equipment section of his character sheet. At the start of a run, Imago, he claims to have not brought anything illegal on the semi-ballistic to Scotland, then during the first fight scene, he claimed that he would never leave home without at least 4 pistols and a SMG on his person. Which gave the other PCs (and co-GMs) the reason to vote for the "if it ain't on your sheet, you ain't got it" houserule.
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May 9 2006, 01:32 PM
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#41
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I agree. Kick down his sand castle then throw dirt in his eyes. That'll teach him to be immature. |
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May 9 2006, 02:59 PM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Sigged! :rotfl:
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May 10 2006, 01:33 AM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
After reading this whole page carefully I would just like to point out that carrying a first aid kit if you want bandages, scissors, antiseptics, a thermal blanket, athletic tape, popsicle sticks, and a CPR barrier is a perfectly acceptable solution. It's possible to think ahead and bring a basic first aid kit (for example) if you don't necessarily want to get stuck in writing each and every last item including the popsicle sticks down. |
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May 10 2006, 01:47 AM
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#44
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Pssh. I've got a partially stocked CLS bag with more than that in it. ;)
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May 10 2006, 02:13 AM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
If you wanted to get detailed you could always go and look up the contents of either basic or advanced first aid kits on google and then just tell the GM, "my character carries one of those around."
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May 10 2006, 05:41 AM
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#46
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
THEN smack him. |
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May 11 2006, 01:07 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
If you want to save chargen and purchase time, you can create your own kits. Like an "urban explorer" kit with flashlight, multitool, stuff like that. Or maybe a "barhopping" kit with level 1 fake ID, hold-out pistol, low-light contacts, etc.
It's not really something you'd get shrink-wrapped at the store, but it'd represent a bunch of boring shopping time. |
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May 11 2006, 09:10 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
Unfortunately, we've used this option in our game :( We had a player who would do stupid, silly stuff. He was a physad, and would run across a firefight so he could "death-touch" somebody. He often made rash decisions that would put the rest of the team, and the objective in jeopardy. He was underground, following the rigger's recon drone (unarmed stealth rotor). they were looking for a "nest" of vampires to save a kid. He discovered the nest, and despite my "are you sure you want to do that?" and the fact that the rest of the team was above ground, over 6 blocks away, he went charging in. 1 physad + MMG + no sense - 5 vampires = dead character. He got upset and left. He came back the week after with the character's brother as his new PC. We gave him another chance. On a mission to infiltrate a small island, they were sneaking up to a sentry post in a Zodiac, no lights, under cover of night, when at about 10 yards from shore he decides to go Normandy, jump out the boat and charge the beach. The sniper, who had been patiently waiting for his shot on a guard, simply pulled the trigger as the Dimwit 2.0 crossed his line of fire. Sometimes you have to smoke'em. It's a last resort, but everybody breathed a sigh of relief when he didn't come back. |
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May 16 2006, 09:50 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 11-May 06 Member No.: 8,547 |
Over 90% of my games involved a team kill, at some point certain people in our group would have a six pack of characters. it became a past time for awhile, but it completely removed the mission from the equation, after about the first 30 minutes of each mission the character was killed and nothing was left to do in the mission since everything was fubar.
its no wonder we made the clue files, though this one can't be the worst of our tales. check sig for the clue file story. |
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May 16 2006, 10:09 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
When it comes to those 'did you think to bring that item' situations, I've found asking for 'foresight' rolls seems to work well. Intuition+Logic with the GM deciding mods as appropriate.
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