Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. Options

[Fuchs]

Dude, it's a SciFi setting. Of course there will be Power Armor. And Nethertech. And other cool stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Give it a look when the core rulebook is out (somewhere in 2010) and decide for yourself - would be cool if you're non-prejudiced against the setting, though.

Well, all depoends on whether or not there has been progress. If the 4th world managed to survive, then the 8th world, with technology far beyond the wildest dreams of the 4th world, and magic development fueled by modern scientific methods and and help (informaiton sharing, for one) should not have much troubles.

That's what keeps bugging me with the whole "Horrors are so nasty" view for Shadowrun - it basically says "there is no progress, Horrors were the big threat for some culture thousands of years ago, so they need to be a threat on the same scale for a culture who has far better technology, and should (unless the big plot hammer of stupidification comes down) surpass them in the magical arts as well, due to having more mages and far better research methods.

It's like someone writing a novel how a mongol horde is appearing in the 20th century, and overrunning Russia again. Just because they did it in the medieval age doesn't mean they have a sliver of a chance to do so in the 20th century. And when the novelist starts bending logic and using cheap plot devices so the tanks and planes don't work, it makes the idea just more stupid, not more plausible.

[nezumi]

Hmm, what other planets have bones on them in the Shadowrun Universe?

It's not too different from now. Mars is special because it's the most earth-like, and we actually have pictures of the 'pyramids on Mars' and 'face on Mars' (Shadowrun continued on the assumption that those are in fact a face and pyramid, because that's cooler). We have very few pictures of Venus, so if there are any bones there, they're concealed from us. Mercury is pretty not exciting. I seem to recollect some mention of Europa or another moon of Jupiter as a target of some interest, but not because anything has been found yet. The other moons just haven't been properly studied, and any bones on the gas giants are clearly going to be obscured from our ever seeing them.

So in short, in 99 cases out of a hundred, we just don't have enough information to comment. Mars we have pictures of and have found interesting things on. I am SURE once we get proper pictures of Venus or Europa or Mercury or a toilet paper roll, people will find faces/pyramids/bones/Jesus and it'll become a valid target for Shadowrun plot.

[CollateralDynamo]

That's what keeps bugging me with the whole "Horrors are so nasty" view for Shadowrun - it basically says "there is no progress, Horrors were the big threat for some culture thousands of years ago, so they need to be a threat on the same scale for a culture who has far better technology, and should (unless the big plot hammer of stupidification comes down) surpass them in the magical arts as well, due to having more mages and far better research methods.

I fully understand and marginally support your logic of "people have better tech now, and should be able to beat back the horrors." I think it is reasonable to assume that our tech level will be vastly greater then incoming horrors. Of course, horrors with intellect (i.e. not gnashers) will probably be able to pick up some of our tools and profit from metahumanity's ignorance to at least get a leg up. I wonder if cadavermen could remember how to fire guns as well as they could remember fighting with weapons. In that sense, the technology gap I don't think would remain too wide for too long, but it is an edge meta-humanity could likely exploit for a time.

However, where do you get the idea that our mages have far better research methods? There is nothing in the fluff to indicate that horrors have the same "no magic" time that people on earth do. Nor that they lack the same drive as humans to better themselves. (again, we are talking about intelligent horrors here, not horror cows) As they seem to be beings that subsist and travel over mana flows, I always assumed that they have a near constantly high level of ambient mana, which has given them thousands of years to do research on the ways of mana, whereas humans are almost starting over from scratch. And even if horrors did start at the same magic level as us (just for the sake of argument) why would we be better at studying it then they would? Why wouldn't we simply be equally good at researching it?

[nezumi]

I do expect an individual will be more effective against most horrors. However, there are some points worth bringing up...

1) The population is huge and the global resources stretched. While the haves will be far more effective, the havenots are going to be hamburger - and in flat numbers, the total number of metahumans killed is going to be staggering compared to the 4th world, just because there are too darn many people to defend even a reasonable number of them against a full-scale invasion.

2) We assume the horrors in the last age were fighting to the best of their ability. This is probably true regarding things like grinders, but again, if horrors realized they want humans to survive to make sure the earth is still populated next time around, that would imply those horrors did not really exert themselves. While we might be more advanced, it may be the difference between being herded like cattle and actually providing a serious threat.

3) We assume the population break down will be the same. If what I said earlier, about the Earth being able to support only a certain number of Horrors, and killing them makes space for more or bigger Horrors, the result may be that humans absolutely devastate grinders and the like, but in exchange, it makes space for more, bigger, more difficult monsters. I.e. it's a naturally scaling threat. Grinders could be the kobolds of that world, and instead we regularly have to face monsters as strong as great dragons.

[Joe Chummer]

I'm working on Equinox. And it's not like your "arguments" had been based on anything solid.

My position is based on how both Horrors and magic work in Earthdawn and Shadowrun. If Equinox doesn't work the same way, then either something has intrinsically changed about the very nature of mana and astral space as we know it, or Equinox is literally not playing by the rules (and thus isn't actually tied to Earthdawn or Shadowrun in any way shape or form).

The fact that you are an Equinox insider and are writing off any arguments based on logic and past history of the mana cycles, stating that we're "all wrong" simply because you're in the know -- this just makes you come across as a condescending jerk.

And if Equinox is being worked on by someone who comes off like you do, then you can also count me in for taking a big fat pass on it.

[Fuchs]

I fully understand and marginally support your logic of "people have better tech now, and should be able to beat back the horrors." I think it is reasonable to assume that our tech level will be vastly greater then incoming horrors. Of course, horrors with intellect (i.e. not gnashers) will probably be able to pick up some of our tools and profit from metahumanity's ignorance to at least get a leg up. I wonder if cadavermen could remember how to fire guns as well as they could remember fighting with weapons. In that sense, the technology gap I don't think would remain too wide for too long, but it is an edge meta-humanity could likely exploit for a time.

However, where do you get the idea that our mages have far better research methods? There is nothing in the fluff to indicate that horrors have the same "no magic" time that people on earth do. Nor that they lack the same drive as humans to better themselves. (again, we are talking about intelligent horrors here, not horror cows) As they seem to be beings that subsist and travel over mana flows, I always assumed that they have a near constantly high level of ambient mana, which has given them thousands of years to do research on the ways of mana, whereas humans are almost starting over from scratch. And even if horrors did start at the same magic level as us (just for the sake of argument) why would we be better at studying it then they would? Why wouldn't we simply be equally good at researching it?

We have far better research methods than humans had in ancient times. Whatever Earthdawn could do, Shadowrun will quickly surpass (even starting from scratch), and Equinox should pulverize it.

If horrors are supposed to have a civilization like we have, and research and develop, and humans are just alive because the horrors tend to their "flock", then the whole idea is dead for me anywax - I am not playing games with the "No matter what you and the world do, you are forever powerless, and unable to do anything" theme.

[Grinder]

My position is based on how both Horrors and magic work in Earthdawn and Shadowrun. If Equinox doesn't work the same way, then either something has intrinsically changed about the very nature of mana and astral space as we know it, or Equinox is literally not playing by the rules (and thus isn't actually tied to Earthdawn or Shadowrun in any way shape or form).

The fact that you are an Equinox insider and are writing off any arguments based on logic and past history of the mana cycles, stating that we're "all wrong" simply because you're in the know -- this just makes you come across as a condescending jerk.

And if Equinox is being worked on by someone who comes off like you do, then you can also count me in for taking a big fat pass on it.

Your statement has been based on the bit of teaser text taht is available online, and still your post read as if you have more knowledge how the astral/ mana stuff will be tackled in Equinox. I'm sorry if I came across like a jerk, but it was hard for me to take your repeated statement serious... anyway, let me assure you that we gave the topic of gaiasphere, astral space and similar topics more than five minutes of time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nezumi]

If horrors are supposed to have a civilization like we have, and research and develop, and humans are just alive because the horrors tend to their "flock", then the whole idea is dead for me anywax - I am not playing games with the "No matter what you and the world do, you are forever powerless, and unable to do anything" theme.

I don't know why you keep coming back to this. Shadowrun is based around the idea of there always being more powerful entities than the PCs. Does that mean the PCs are 'forever powerless, and unable to do anything'? Most RPGs are based on the concept of there being some thing(s) bigger and stronger than people ever will be, and antagonistic to people in general (hence, the challenge of the RPG), yet you don't rail against those. Why is it that the idea of what you're working on today won't really matter 100 years in the future such a game-breaker for you? Do your characters regularly do stuff that change the course of the universe permanently?

[Sixgun_Sage]

A point of dispute is that the Horrors do not have a culture, it has been stated numerous times that between the mana cycles they make war on eachother. That means they don't share research, which means the most advanced metamagical and technological feats will be beyond the vast majority of them and the named Horrors all have such clearly defined methodologies that it is at the least highly unlikely they'll have developed abilities outside of them. To put it bluntly the Horrors may be individually quite powerfull on their high end, but they don't pose an insurmountable problem for an information age society with the magical base and technological capacities of SR. To say they do is to go "Yay, favorite god-monster, it am crushing puny hoomans!"

[Fuchs]

I don't know why you keep coming back to this. Shadowrun is based around the idea of there always being more powerful entities than the PCs. Does that mean the PCs are 'forever powerless, and unable to do anything'? Most RPGs are based on the concept of there being some thing(s) bigger and stronger than people ever will be, and antagonistic to people in general (hence, the challenge of the RPG), yet you don't rail against those. Why is it that the idea of what you're working on today won't really matter 100 years in the future such a game-breaker for you? Do your characters regularly do stuff that change the course of the universe permanently?

Because I dislike the idea that no matter what you do, how lucky or powerful you become, you won't matter ever. That's all there is to it - such a view turns me off. I don't need or usually do play such characters, but I dislike the mere idea.

[Kagetenshi]

That is a view that doesn't necessarily need to affect the question of "will metahumanity get creamed in the Sixth World"—"it is possible to become powerful enough to beat the Horrors" does not imply "we will at that specific point be powerful enough to beat the Horrors".

Edit: I also think some of the productive debate here may be getting obstructed by unspoken assumptions. For example, I don't think I ever actually argued out loud against the idea that humanity would leap together and be one big happy family in an unbroken front, or even a substantially cooperating front, in the face of a Horror breakthrough. Consequently, some of the comments about the power of collaborative research may be assuming that while I've dismissed it as absurd, and such is not the basis of a productive discussion.

~J

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I don't know why you keep coming back to this. Shadowrun is based around the idea of there always being more powerful entities than the PCs. Does that mean the PCs are 'forever powerless, and unable to do anything'? Most RPGs are based on the concept of there being some thing(s) bigger and stronger than people ever will be, and antagonistic to people in general (hence, the challenge of the RPG), yet you don't rail against those. Why is it that the idea of what you're working on today won't really matter 100 years in the future such a game-breaker for you? Do your characters regularly do stuff that change the course of the universe permanently?

I use "Summon Bigger Fish".

[CollateralDynamo]

A point of dispute is that the Horrors do not have a culture, it has been stated numerous times that between the mana cycles they make war on eachother.

I wonder if they do it with use of deniable assets... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

But yeah, I would assume that horrors don't share their research...neither does most of metahumanity. I think my mind may have actually been changed. Originally I voted for "the horrors will whoop our sorry butts", but now I am looking at the question slightly differently. CAN humanity beat the horrors (or beatt he Horrors even) yeah, if they all banded together for the sole purpose of defeating horrors everywhere, it is just possible that they could. WILL they? I find that much less likely. Half of the world will try to run and hide because that is how it has always been done, half of the world will try to fight to maintain their own little spheres of influence (likely being too paranoid to truly aid one another and share their research at vital points) and the dreaded third half ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) will make deals with horrors for some nifty magic powers.

Lets face it, humanity, in general, is very tough to get moving in the same direction. Look at the Native Americans when the Easterners started moving in for example. It was quickly obvious that their way of life was in serious danger, and the only way they would have a shot at retaining their lands and power as they knew it was by working together. But the fierce pride, long standing feuds, etc. of their leaders made that teamwork impossible until it was too late.

But meh, thats just my .02:nuyen:.

[Sixgun_Sage]

The problem is that you don't need very many humans or metahumans to handle the Horrors, look at the force multipliers in humanity's favor, while corporations may not share research governments often do, aso do academic groups. the average street cop today has more firepower than a company of trained longbowmen and better armor to boot, now consider what a seriously pissed off, high end security rigger in SR has. Consider the way academic mages share their research, think of the way a street sammy is augmented. Can you say Horror con carne?

[nezumi]

Because I dislike the idea that no matter what you do, how lucky or powerful you become, you won't matter ever. That's all there is to it - such a view turns me off. I don't need or usually do play such characters, but I dislike the mere idea.

I still find this interesting because, from everything I've read, that's sort of one of the core tenants of cyberpunk. You don't matter. You will always be a little fish in a big pond. The world moves too fast even for the best-placed humans to keep up. Technology moves faster than the human mind can adapt. Corporations have developed lives of their own, 'independent' of the human cells that compose them.

If this were a D&D board, I would expect your view, but on a Shadowrun board, it seems... a little out of place. I simply don't see the Horrors adding anything to the world that is not already represented by either the Cyberpunk mythos, or real-world situations (except perhaps in questions of scale and absolutes. Absolute evil doesn't really exist in the real world or cyberpunk, it's all shades of grey, but the case can be made that horrors are in fact absolutely evil. And even this can be questioned here, as good arguments have been made showing horrors are less evil than us 'shades of grey' humans.)

And, as Kage pointed out, horrors as a group being such that all humans combined cannot win a decisive victory does not in any way imply that an individual can't make a lasting change. Humans will survive, and the actions of a few will save or doom millions of lives, preserve or eliminate thousands of years of culture and technology. Humanity will come out the other end, the question is, will they come out into a new dark ages, or into a new rennaisance? And that depends solely on those few individuals who risk it all to alter the course of history.

[Sixgun_Sage]

I just want to point out something before anyone brings up the idea that the 4th world scourge destroyed an SR level tech base... Where is the evidence of that? Modern ceramics, polymers and alloys exist today in the real world that possess thresholds for temperature, kinetic energy and degradation from environmental factors that it is inconcievable they would not exist post-scourge, especially since with the kaerns' goal of preserving metahumanity and it's culture you'ld have to think they'ld keep technology around and keep atleast a portion of the populace trained in it's use and maintenance. The evidence shows humanity being several orders of magnitude more dangerous than the last time around, whereas there is no evidence for Horror growth.

[Kagetenshi]

I just want to point out something before anyone brings up the idea that the 4th world scourge destroyed an SR level tech base... Where is the evidence of that?

The Earthdawn sourcebooks?

Like others have said, the 4th world made extensive use of magitech. The great works are mostly wherever they fell when the magic level stopped supporting them, and even if it is possible to interpret their former use that would require knowledge of a previous age of magic.

~J

[CollateralDynamo]

I just want to point out something before anyone brings up the idea that the 4th world scourge destroyed an SR level tech base... Where is the evidence of that?

From my recollection (which may be a little off), it wasn't an SR level tech base that existed in the 4th world pre-scourge. I thought the progression went something like this:
1st world: mundane, boring cavemen, read history books to learn more
2nd world: by now we have expanded to actual cultures. However, they were shocked when horrors and the scourge came (as there was no previous evidence that this would happen). It was during this world that IEs and Great Dragons came to be. Untold millions lost their lives, and basically all technology (which would likely compare to at least a Greek or Egyptian civilization) and magic knowledge was lost. Little to nothing remains today (in the 5th world) to signify that this age ever occurred.
3rd world: cultures expanded. Many of the so called "ancient" cultures we know about today likely have their roots here.
4th world: IEs and Great Dragons come back. Magic expands. People in the know realize that horrors are going to come back for a second scourge. They manage to warn the people to develop kaers. It doesn't work as well as hoped, but substantially more people are saved. A dark age follows, but the knowledge is there for those who know where to look.
5th world: The one we are currently living in, older civilizations have their roots at the beginning of this age, they capitalize off of the remnants of the 4th world. Its a boring yawn fest, so we don't talk about it much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
6th world: Due to more people being saved in the 4th world, we are at a substantially increased tech level as we enter the 6th world. Again magic forces come into the world. Magic power seems to be skyrocketing. Evidence suggests horrors will return in hundreds of years as opposed to thousands. 6th world is certainly more potent then 4th, but will it be enough? Will people band together? The entire 4th world chose to flee (as evidence by the seemingly worldwide kaer excavations), will people in the 6th world choose an inter-planar war instead? Would they be successful? (thats why we are arguing here)
7th world: Like the 5th but with lasers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) No matter the outcome of the scourge in the 6th world, there will still be a higher survival rate then the 4th world's scourge. Mankind will not have been utterly crushed, just perhaps set back 1000 or so years.
8th world: Equinox(?)

I just want to make sure I'm on the same page as other people here. I'm doing my best to set the record straight for the people who seem unfamiliar. Feel free to correct me if I messed something up.

[nezumi]

First world was the creation of the earth, inhabited entirely by horrors.

Second and third I don't believe we know much of anything about.

Late Fourth World is Earthdawn, and basically all pre-Atlantean civilization, possibly including the Sumerians and like. I don't know where the actual dividing line between ages is, but Fifth World is basically everything post-Atlantean, so most known Egyptian history (possibly all) up to 2012.

[Cthulhudreams]

Definitely true. It seems pretty clear that higher magic will somehow close the gap in the energy cycle. Still, if you're sending drones out to die, it may be problematic since those parts won't be available to you any more, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume we can get recycling up to a pretty efficient level.

Actually it seems they can create matter out of energy, which means you can make composite plastics out of nothing. Which means you have unlimited drones, which is cool.

I may not be recalling correctly, but were there any spirits which laid eggs in your chest and transformed your physical form prior to the bug spirits? Are there spirits which are fully physical-only and unable to project into the astral, like gnashers? Are there spirits that require being consumed by a human to reproduce, like dread iota?

All horrors in the earthdawn books I have (a number) appear to be astral or dual natured beings. No inhabitation spirits are recorded. Yes, inhabitation spirits CAN use the matrix, which is badass, but horrors - all horrors with the eye of god to tell you about them, including a precise and mechanical description of powers - are not in a position to use them. A number can possess humans, but none inhabit.

Gnashers are incidently, not physical only - they actually have an astral portal built into them.

Do gnashers defecate?

Yes, into the Astral. No physical waste is produced. It is speculated that the energy is returned to the horror planes in the book.

[nezumi]

All horrors in the earthdawn books I have (a number) appear to be astral or dual natured beings. No inhabitation spirits are recorded. Yes, inhabitation spirits CAN use the matrix, which is badass, but horrors - all horrors with the eye of god to tell you about them, including a precise and mechanical description of powers - are not in a position to use them. A number can possess humans, but none inhabit.

My point was to show that we have been regularly proven wrong regarding what we think spirits can and cannot do. Therefore, saying spirits can't possibly use the matrix is an ungrounded assumption (on the order of 'spirits can't possibly lay eggs in my chest which transform my entire body into a new and unique life form').

But thank you on grinder defecation. It's been a while since I've read the Horrors book and I'm not sure I could find it again.

[Kagetenshi]

First world was the creation of the earth, inhabited entirely by horrors.

This would most likely have been the Zeroeth World, actually. The alternative is massive weirdness with the cycle, as otherwise even-numbered Worlds are magical and odd-numbered ones aren't.

~J

[Sixgun_Sage]

The Earthdawn sourcebooks?

Like others have said, the 4th world made extensive use of magitech. The great works are mostly wherever they fell when the magic level stopped supporting them, and even if it is possible to interpret their former use that would require knowledge of a previous age of magic.

~J

But that magitech is not advanced conventional technology combined with magic, but in every case I recall fairly crude combinations of magic and technology. I've admitted before my knowledge of earthdawn is not stellar, it isn't one of my favorite systems so if an example of magic combined with advanced technology can be found I will concede the point, as is I find the lack of things like computers, advanced firearms and the like to be a strike against the argument that the world was anywhere near SR levels of advancement prior to the 4th age scourge.

[Joe Chummer]

Your statement has been based on the bit of teaser text taht is available online, and still your post read as if you have more knowledge how the astral/ mana stuff will be tackled in Equinox. I'm sorry if I came across like a jerk, but it was hard for me to take your repeated statement serious... anyway, let me assure you that we gave the topic of gaiasphere, astral space and similar topics more than five minutes of time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This is all fine and good so long as there's a solid explanation for why things work differently in Equinox than they do in SR and ED. There are 20 years' worth of SR and ED material documenting how magic and astral space and metaplanes and Horrors work, which means that if how Equinox handles it is different, one would hope there is a logical and rational explanation for the change (which I'm guessing from your reply that this has already been addressed).

I wasn't going to be terribly surprised if the workings of magic in Equinox turned out a bit differently than it is in SR or ED (after all, why would we need a whole brand-new game for roleplaying in the 8th World if all we had to do was put our shadowrunners in vacsuits and spaceships and roll some D6s?), but I wasn't expecting a radical paradigm shift. Radical paradigm shifts are perfectly acceptable. Just make sure you explain such a shift well enough that fans of the old guard won't feel ostracized.

Unless, of course, you're trying to completely disassociate Equinox from SR and ED entirely (as in "Equinox's '8th World' is not in the same reality as either ED or SR"). But I figured, if that was the case, you guys would never have thrown out the term "8th World" to begin with...

So, no harm, no foul. Carry on.

[Cthulhudreams]

I do expect an individual will be more effective against most horrors. However, there are some points worth bringing up...

1) The population is huge and the global resources stretched. While the haves will be far more effective, the havenots are going to be hamburger - and in flat numbers, the total number of metahumans killed is going to be staggering compared to the 4th world, just because there are too darn many people to defend even a reasonable number of them against a full-scale invasion.

2) We assume the horrors in the last age were fighting to the best of their ability. This is probably true regarding things like grinders, but again, if horrors realized they want humans to survive to make sure the earth is still populated next time around, that would imply those horrors did not really exert themselves. While we might be more advanced, it may be the difference between being herded like cattle and actually providing a serious threat.

3) We assume the population break down will be the same. If what I said earlier, about the Earth being able to support only a certain number of Horrors, and killing them makes space for more or bigger Horrors, the result may be that humans absolutely devastate grinders and the like, but in exchange, it makes space for more, bigger, more difficult monsters. I.e. it's a naturally scaling threat. Grinders could be the kobolds of that world, and instead we regularly have to face monsters as strong as great dragons.

1) If the stuff posited in Earthdawn is true, then 2170 will actually be a post demand society as anything plastic can be created from nothing. And once you're their, we can create all sorts of things from nothing. Seriously, humanity can build a dyson sphere under those conditions and it's not even hard. Plus, humans ALREADY have A) cloning and B) the ability to write one personality into another brain. I mean the only thing stopping an orbital elevator in 2070 is that no-one has done it, not that it's impossible with materials science.

Humanity will seriously have unlimited access to energy and materials. Unlimited!

With unlimited energy and brain patterning like that, humanity can just crank out super soldier after super soldier after super soldier (maybe have to pilot them with an AI depending on exactly how SR cloning works. Fit with a bomb that auto destructs when suit is beached), and seal them in suits that are warded (like kaers) against the horrors, then unleash them with gatling chain guns. Who cares.

2) Well, yeah, but the threat dimensions of what is possible with pre scourge magic and technology are just a billion orders of magnitude higher than earthdawn. Heck, it's not even clear that the horrors are immune to poison. Nerve gas ftw.

3) If we assume that the population breakdown is the same, the horrors are a joke. The threat is such that a population of 200 million survived fairly handily and mostly intact, the world of the future has 40x the number of people to though at the problem. However, we are individually much more productive, so there is 2000! times the resources to deal with the problem. (estimates: using GDP)

And that's not even factoring in earth dawn style unlimited energy, and the manufacturing and energy opportunities that unlocks for us. One could reasonably expect 40,000! times the production available to fight the horrors.