Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. Options

[Joker9125]

Ok i have a few points to make.....

1. im sorry about getting confused about the cremak blast but if i am not mistaken Artifacter did bring in technology more advanced than whut they had in the fourth world someone please correct me if im wrong.

2. If in fact i am correct this would mean that by now he would have more advanced technology than we do and in 3000 years he will still have more technology than we do. And pus if you remember he is an elemental his intellegence is determined by his force. And also If you remember his force is so hight that it took not one but several dragons to summon him. This means his intellegence would probably be at least in the high double to the low or middle triple digits giving him an intellegence of at the very least least 100 but more realistically around 200 ok compair that to your gropue of researchers with an average intellegence of 6. Who do you think will have more advanced technology in 3000 years? And this is just ONE midpowered horror i say ONE midpowered horror.

2. just the fact that the story writers mentioned that Verjigorm made the world probably makes it true.

3. Do you honestly think that Verjigorm would make a race that could every really destroy him? Seriously have u every played a strategy game like command and conqure and put the AI down on the lowest level just cause u wanted to have a little fun with the computer even though ocasionally it does something smart and take out a few of your buildings? But in the long run you know that the enemy you created has no chance in hell of stopping your assault.

4. I do realize that nightslayer was able to temporalary stop Verjigorm but if you also remember that rigth before he was stoped and temporalary contained Verjigorm he was vaporized. Which means that Verjigorm was more powerful than nightslayer. Even though Verjigorm made a mistake and allowed nightslayer to temporalary gaint he upper hand.

Ok so lets recap the situation Verjigorm is like the human player against the computer. We are the computer AI set on the lowest possible setting. So in short Verjigorm created us so he would have something to toy with and have fun slaughtering. he created creatures like nightslayer because he wanted a little more of a challange. His challenging creations are all gone except for the dragons which were created by nightslayer and they still arnt much of a challange to Verjigorm.

In short we are screwed.........

[Lilt]

In response to what someone said a while back that dragons are essentially horrors: According to draconic myth it was indeed a horror-type creature who created the dragons, but it was also the creature that created all of the other races so by that logic humans are horrors in a way.

As for the adepts that can explode and send a shockwave down the horror mark: WOOP! Just give all of the clones in the armies armies we send-out this power.

FAB would probably be highly effective against the less powerful masses and the construct peons.

If it's possible to fit initiate-graded mages into bacteria-sized boxes then I find it possible that humans could create our own similar creatures from a FAB-III base. Fill the earth's atmosphere with clouds of them, or even better fill the metaplane at the gap between worlds with them, and watch as the clouds spread into the horror metaplanes. Of course we do then have the problem of a world filled with nasty bacteria, or the have the next scourge a swarm of nasty 10000-years evolved versions of FAB

Regardless; Killing Verjigorm and humanity surviving is, I would say, the most important part of defeating the horrors. I very much doubt even verjigorm could survive a dual-natured fusion bomb, if he does then we'll just send another at him. He could damage-shift the first, but the second (after the first killed everything within LOS) would probably nail him.

[kevyn668]

I agree that "darke" is a position. Kinda like "brackhaven", IMO.

As for Darke informing the bosses of the advances made...meh, you can try to explain what a 50megaton nuke is but until you see one ripping through your front lines it probably won't have the same effect.

("Why yes, Mr. Darke, I know exactly what 50 thousand tons of TNT can do...um, what was this T-N-T you spoke of again?)

Yes, Horatio, there is information exchange. Its not "free" but you can do it if you want. Take for instance, the internet. You don't need wide open lines all you need is the ability to make use of them should you need. Like if a Horde of inhuman monsters come calling. Its a lot easier now to contact someone in Hawaii than it was in the Fourth Age, yes?

And AGAIN I'll say: yes we need Kaers but not as hidding spots. As bases, Like "The Spirits Within". I don't think you could on about your bussines when the Scourge comes and then check out the after action reports on the Trid. Or whatever they use in 3000years.

And it won't be FAB III. It'll be more like FAB 3000. I expect it'll be taliored to specificly target Horror Auras.

[toturi]

[kevyn668]

@ Joker:

No dude, we're not screwed. Haven't you rever been beaten a computer?

There's no "restart" fo the Big V. ;)

You gotta be more positive, man!! You're Human! We rock!! Top of the food chain...since the last Scourge. And the Horrors don't get to just jump ahead when they show. They have to fight for that spot. And thats I fight I say humanity can win.

GO METAHUMANS!!

[Lilt]

What force the dragons could have summoned artificer at depends on what is reasonably possible. If we really want to find-out what the most powerful spirit that dragons could have reasonably summoned (by the SR rules) lets look at the stats.

Taking 10 great dragons (this is probably a generous estimate due to the problems of getting them all in the same place during the scourge, or getting them all to work together, or getting them all into a circle) with conjuring skills of around 13 (equal to the willpower stat of a great dragon, some would have more and some less) we have 130 dice. Working on the Shadowrun dice roll probability calculator rolling 130 dice with 500 karma pool for rerolls (that's 31 rerolls) available, the best force they could reasonably conjure would be around 29 before the probabilities drop below 50%, 21 if you want a nearly 100% chance. That's assuming a you want a single success and any more would be bought using excess karma pool (if any). OK: it could have bought up its force a bit using karma, and your guess is as good as mine as to how much karma it managed to accumulate (I'm assuming it can only take it from people free-spirit style rather than develop its own). Also note that the various horror powers probably cost karma to learn.

[Playing Games]

Add to the fact,that dragons could have foci,and magical items that would make IE's drool.

Think of a magical item that lowered magical TNs by say 20.

Hell think of the meta-magics those dragons had.They may had the ability to make "great" great form spirits.

We,don't know everything about dragons,and what they have. Wile,I'll admit one 29 for that matter is scary.

[Lilt]

Well, for one there is no canon evisence that an item that lowers conjuring TNs by 20 could exist. You might as well say "Imagine the dragons made made a weapon that could kill all of the horrors" or something else silly. Until there is a canon way to lower base TNs then I'd say it's impossible.

29 is scarily high but the vast numbers of scientists humanity have could probably advance technology far faster than a single 29-intelligence entity. Other horrors could help him but I doubt you'll see horrors working together in that way. Don't forget that Artificer would also have to buy-up the skills to investigate technology to reasonable levels otherwise he's defaulting (and point-blank can't do anything with a TN higher than 8 ). There's a limit to how far he can get once he runs out of karma to buy his next skill up.

[kevyn668]

Re: the Horrors making advancements.

I was thinking that they would have made little, if any. Humans are the ones fighting wars and thats where most of our advancement has come from. I find it hard to believe that the Horrors have RnD labs set up in the Metaplanes. The Invae don't...Nor do any spirits that I know of.

[Joker9125]

[Joker9125]

[kevyn668]

Because they are antagonists. And antagonists don't advance unless the Gm wants them to. ;)

[Joker9125]

[kevyn668]

[Joker9125]

[Nargrakhan]

[Joker9125]

[kevyn668]

[Nargrakhan]

True... however by the same token, there's too much uncertainty for anyone to make finalized statements on the subject matter at hand to be honest. As far as we could ever guess, over the course of this new year, the writers could greatly swing the balance of power which way they choose.

The point is, given what we know, the war could go either way.

My question is: what's the focus of this argument now? As a poll it’s served its purpose, but to bicker back and forth isn't convincing anyone to any real extent (at least not me).

We could post cannon rules and “what ifs” all year round, only to have FanPro throw everything this topic is about out the window for something totally unexpected. And if certain GM's didn't like that outcome, they'd just change it anyways... :)

[kevyn668]

Hey, we have a good "nu-huh", "ya-huh" thing going here. There's no need to bring logic into this!

:D

[Lilt]

I was basing the argument on the only canon basis there is for using any form of magical ritual involving multiple members. I assume my example to be a somewhat best-case scenario set of rules for Ritual Conjuring showing that a force of high doubble to low tripple figures would be an impossibility. Also note that using those rules all of the dragons involved would probably die from the drain (unless they summoned some ally spirits or something and just dumped the drain on them).

I'll give you that a conjuring Aptitude could lower TNs by one, Homeground by another. But that still only increases the spirit force available by 2 to 31. Regardless, I was responding to a post suggesting a foci that could perform the task and there is no canon basis in SR for a focus that can provide that kind of bonus (and dragons rarely bind foci according to Dot6w).

It dosen't matter how many metal elementals (or whatever form of elementals or horrors) are working with artificer; Unless they have the skill in the field they cannot do anything with a base target number greater than 8 (p85, BBB). My point being that rocket science, and brain surgery, and genetics, and that ilk of skills will very often require tests with TNs greater than 8.

I suspect Artificer could continue his research for a bit, possibly learning new skills when he needs to, but it remains extremely unlikely that artificer could achieve the sort of technological advances that humans, who can specialise in each field as deeply as their karma lets them, and cooperate with other people doing the same.

Now I am assuming one thing here: That there is not some form of 24/7 scourge happening where the scourge happens on different worlds consecutively thus artificer and the like couldn't get technology (or karma) from other worlds.

According to dragon myth Verjigorm accidentally created a creature with more power than he meant to that rebelled against him. The assumption that he did this on purpose to create more sport for himself is unfounded. This also goes for the Computer/AI argument. Deus did stuff that they didn't expect, but it was only due to a kill-switch that hewas eventually defeated. The question is wether or not humans do have kill-switches.

[Joker9125]

Yes I agree debates such as these are fun

[Lilt]

Oh yes: The most important thing to take into account in the Humans Vs Horrors debait is: Which would make the best playing environment?

One where humans all huddle into maticulously warded Kaers, one where all humans become slaves/peons/food for the demons, or one wherehumans can strike blows at the demonic forces.

That's the question that will dictate what happens in SR assuming the timeline ever gets that far.

[Fortune]

I'm still chuckling about the Intelligence of 200! :please: :D

[Joker9125]