Grenade launchers and the heavy weapons skill, Does this bother anyone else? Options

[Tyro]

It really bothers me that grenade launchers are grouped in with heavy weapons - their use is so different from the other weapons in the category that I find it rather ridiculous. I'm considering making them exotic, but I'm concerned about game balance. It might not be too bad, considering that (esp. with an airburst link) extra hits aren't as important with grenades as with other weapons after a certain point. Thoughts

On an unrelated note, what would it take to modify a grenade to go off on a proximity trigger? I'm thinking of sticking grenades to walls beside doors as I go into a compound, then activating proximity triggers as I leave so anyone following gets hit as soon as they pass through the door. Would the prep be hardware or demolitions? Would it take much skill (or any) to affix them properly?

[Rystefn]

Yeah, it's pretty screwy... but, then, using a deer rifle isn't substantially different from using an assault rifle, and those are in different groups. The lines have to be drawn somewhere, and they're going to be a bit arbitrary. The rules also say that using a LMG on a pintle mount uses the same skill as the main gun on a tank, and I can tell you from experience that the two bear almost no relation to one another.

In short, if you disagree with the lines, move them. Moving Grenade Launchers to their own skill group would make them less common, which is also realistic... but I wouldn't suggest calling it exotic, because then you can't specialize if I recall.

On the subject of grenades, is anyone else confused by how a person's ability to dodge can change where the grande lands by several meters? Maybe if you were shooting at his head, and he ducks... Wouldn't it make more sense to say the grenade lands where it lands, based on the skill of the shooter, and everyone in the area gets a Reaction test to get behind cover or something?

[Tyro]

Yeah, it's pretty screwy... but, then, using a deer rifle isn't substantially different from using an assault rifle, and those are in different groups. The lines have to be drawn somewhere, and they're going to be a bit arbitrary. The rules also say that using a LMG on a pintle mount uses the same skill as the main gun on a tank, and I can tell you from experience that the two bear almost no relation to one another.

In short, if you disagree with the lines, move them. Moving Grenade Launchers to their own skill group would make them less common, which is also realistic... but I wouldn't suggest calling it exotic, because then you can't specialize if I recall.

On the subject of grenades, is anyone else confused by how a person's ability to dodge can change where the grande lands by several meters? Maybe if you were shooting at his head, and he ducks... Wouldn't it make more sense to say the grenade lands where it lands, based on the skill of the shooter, and everyone in the area gets a Reaction test to get behind cover or something?

I would indeed like grenade launchers to be less common, and though preventing specialization could be an issue, if they were in their own group specialization would make no sense. I'm not certain preventing speccing is totally a bad thing anyway. I don't like heavy grenade use.

Rules to fix the "dodge skill includes moving grenades with your mind reflexes" problem would be appreciated.

Anyone have an answer to my second question?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

On an unrelated note, what would it take to modify a grenade to go off on a proximity trigger? I'm thinking of sticking grenades to walls beside doors as I go into a compound, then activating proximity triggers as I leave so anyone following gets hit as soon as they pass through the door. Would the prep be hardware or demolitions? Would it take much skill (or any) to affix them properly?

I think the correct skill would be demolitions. Arsenal has expanding rules for demolitions.

[Draco18s]

Easy, awesome solution:

Launcher skill. Covers grenade launchers, rocket launchers, and missile launchers of all man-portable variety.
Specialization: by specific weapon or by type

Dodge: eat hit on the dodge test allows the target to move 1 meter directly away from the blast radius. If they land enough hits to move on top of the blast center, they can opt to "throw themselves on the 'nade" granting everyone in the radius additional armor against the blast (equal to the target's half-impact + body).

[Tyro]

Easy, awesome solution:

Launcher skill. Covers grenade launchers, rocket launchers, and missile launchers of all man-portable variety.
Specialization: by specific weapon or by type

Dodge: eat hit on the dodge test allows the target to move 1 meter directly away from the blast radius. If they land enough hits to move on top of the blast center, they can opt to "throw themselves on the 'nade" granting everyone in the radius additional armor against the blast (equal to the target's half-impact + body).

I like both of those. I like them a lot, with the exception that non-man-portable missile launchers should stay with Gunnery. inserts them into his houserule document

[Smokeskin]

Grenades can detonate by wireless command, you can have proximity wires that send wireless alerts, I'd figure it would be as easy as subscribing one to the other.

[Ascalaphus]

So clarify for me: extra hits on a grenade do/do not add to damage (apart from reducing scatter)?

And what about planted grenades? No attack roll & scatter obviously. But if extra hits do additional damage, how do you determine that when you don't roll?

[etherial]

I like both of those. I like them a lot, with the exception that missile launchers should stay with Gunnery. inserts them into his houserule document

Gunnery is for vehicular weapons.

[Tyro]

Gunnery is for vehicular weapons.

Rather, non-man-portable missile launchers edits

Should I link the new skill to Logic? I might even link it to Intuition.

[Tyro]

Grenades can detonate by wireless command, you can have proximity wires that send wireless alerts, I'd figure it would be as easy as subscribing one to the other.

I'm trying to avoid tripwires so the bad guys won't get a perception roll. Maybe modify the grenade's proximity trigger to ignore the wall and only trigger if a new object entered its range? That should be possible to preprogram, so a 'runner without much skill could just hit one button and slap it on the wall. I'd make it a low-threshold Demolitions test, something that shouldn't be a big risk to default on unless the 'runner in question was stupid.

Sorry for the double post - I was multitasking and ended up replying to 2 posts in 2 tabs *sheepish*

[Draco18s]

I like both of those. I like them a lot, with the exception that non-man-portable missile launchers should stay with Gunnery.

That was my intent, hence "all launchers that are man-portable." Mounted ones are definitely still gunnery.

[Smokeskin]

I'm trying to avoid tripwires so the bad guys won't get a perception roll. Maybe modify the grenade's proximity trigger to ignore the wall and only trigger if a new object entered its range? That should be possible to preprogram, so a 'runner without much skill could just hit one button and slap it on the wall. I'd make it a low-threshold Demolitions test, something that shouldn't be a big risk to default on unless the 'runner in question was stupid.

Sorry for the double post - I was multitasking and ended up replying to 2 posts in 2 tabs *sheepish*

Proximity wires aren't tripwires, pg 253 SR4:

Capacitance wire, or proximity wire, detects the electrical
charge of a metahuman body (or animal) within 2 meters. It
is oft en used around a building’s perimeter fencing, on secure
entranceways, or on special objects, and either triggers a regular
alarm or switches on security cameras and other measures

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

So clarify for me: extra hits on a grenade do/do not add to damage (apart from reducing scatter)?

And what about planted grenades? No attack roll & scatter obviously. But if extra hits do additional damage, how do you determine that when you don't roll?

As far as I know, they are used to reduce scatter and the targets must acquire net hits against the attacker hits to start diminishing damage (although this last part might be a house-rule created by our GM)

[Draco18s]

By RAW, net hits on either side only add or subtract from the scatter. Extra ones do nothing.

I have an intense desire to show up at a Missions game with a character who has Prejudiced (Radical) against furniture.

"TASTE EXPLOSIVES, CHAIR!" *lob*

At which point my declared target, the chair, is the dodger, and has no dice. Everyone else in the room are the "secondary" splash targets and do not receive a roll. The grenade lands exactly where I want it to (based on my hits) and I don't have to worry about a dodger.

[Tyro]

Proximity wires aren't tripwires, pg 253 SR4:

Capacitance wire, or proximity wire, detects the electrical
charge of a metahuman body (or animal) within 2 meters. It
is oft en used around a building’s perimeter fencing, on secure
entranceways, or on special objects, and either triggers a regular
alarm or switches on security cameras and other measures

I was referring to the paragraph on page 324 of SR4A (emphasis mine):

...Grenades and similar explosives can also be rigged with a tripwire to set up as a basic booby-trap.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

If secondary targets have no right to dodge, then why not just say "I'm aiming at this little point of the ground"?

[Muspellsheimr]

Attack Test: The character targets a square (or hex, location, etc) and makes a single attack test. Each character within range of the blast makes a separate defense test. Net Hits increase damage as normal.

Scatter: Scatter determines where the grenade lands in relation to the target point if the attacker rolls a glitch. Hits on the attack test do not adjust scatter. Scatter uses the Shadowrun 4 (pre-Anniversary) values.

Grenades vs. Micro Grenades: Grenades are designed to be thrown. Micro grenades are designed to be fired from a launcher. Manually throwing a micro grenade imposes a -4 dice pool penalty to the attack test.



I do like the idea of a Launch Weapons skill. I will run it by the GM (I don't actually GM the group anymore, but I am still in charge of house rules & the like). On the skill subject, Automatics does not exist, having been merged into Pistols & Longarms.

[Draco18s]

Attack Test: The character targets a square (or hex, location, etc) and makes a single attack test.

The only thing I have to say against this is:
I once knew a character who enjoyed beaning people with the 'nade before it exploded (improvised thrown weapon). And was good at it.

[Muspellsheimr]

One of my friends played a throwing adept (I think) who did that - usually the face, though. I think it was to avoid the rather shitty scatter rules.

[Tyro]

Attack Test: The character targets a square (or hex, location, etc) and makes a single attack test. Each character within range of the blast makes a separate defense test. Net Hits increase damage as normal.

Scatter: Scatter determines where the grenade lands in relation to the target point if the attacker rolls a glitch. Hits on the attack test do not adjust scatter. Scatter uses the Shadowrun 4 (pre-Anniversary) values.

Grenades vs. Micro Grenades: Grenades are designed to be thrown. Micro grenades are designed to be fired from a launcher. Manually throwing a micro grenade imposes a -4 dice pool penalty to the attack test.

I like this. What do other people think?

I do like the idea of a Launch Weapons skill. I will run it by the GM (I don't actually GM the group anymore, but I am still in charge of house rules & the like). On the skill subject, Automatics does not exist, having been merged into Pistols & Longarms.

I'm glad you like it. Do you think I should link it to Logic, Intuition, or Agility?

[Draco18s]

I'm glad you like it. Do you think I should link it to Logic, Intuition, or Agility?

Logic IMO. There's ballistic arcs going on here, so it's more "where do I aim?" than aiming correctly.

[Muspellsheimr]

No. Still Agility - it's less figuring out how to fire than actually aiming (indirect or otherwise). Also keep in mind it includes rocket launchers & similar.

Agility covers a number of ballistic arcs already (thrown grenades being a fine example), as it is still a matter of placing them where you want, not calculating the angles.

[Apathy]

The grenade launcher using the Heavy Weapons skill probably applies to launchers in the 25mm to 40mm caliber range like this or this. I think a more appropriate question would be why would an M307 (Auto Grenade Launcher) or M2 (Heavy Machine Gun) use different skills when mounted on a vehicle than they would when mounted on a tripod?

It's also easy to argue that under-barrell attachments like the M203 would use something different than the automatics skill also. Shells load differently. You hold it differently when aiming and use different sights when aiming. The slowness of the round means it travels a very different trajectory and is more affected by wind, and you'd have to lead moving targets more. So maybe under-barrel GLs should have their own skill?

[Draco18s]

I think a more appropriate question would be why would an M307 (Auto Grenade Launcher) or M2 (Heavy Machine Gun) use different skills when mounted on a vehicle than they would when mounted on a tripod?

Vehicle mounted == tripod IMO. I was thinking more along the lines of this.