Grenade launchers and the heavy weapons skill, Does this bother anyone else? Options

[Draco18s]

We definitely do... but the effect does you no good if you cannot actually get the grenade into the room...

And lobbing a 1 pound baseball sized object though a 6 foot by 6 foot opening is really that difficult?

[Rystefn]

Because it is ok to kill everyone in a room with 1 entire clip of ex-ex ammo but God forbid they throw two grenades inside?
I would agree that if by anything, the scatter rules are there to "protect" the players then the NPC's and yes, Shadowrun is a gritty game and violence is most of the time the answer (or the means) for everything, but it is better give the players a chance to escape instead of simply saying: "Rocks fall, everybody dies"

Police response to killing four people with an Uzi is substantially different than the response to killing the same four people with a grenade. Ask any cop in the world. Remember, if the players aren't throwing grenades, who's throwing them back? Do average cops and secd guards in your game have grenades? If so, I think I should remind you again: SR. Not Rambo.

I take it you guys don't use chunky salsa at your table?

Most certainly do. Explosions kill people. Try to avoid situations where explosions are the likely result.

And lobbing a 1 pound baseball sized object though a 6 foot by 6 foot opening is really that difficult?

It shouldn't be... but the game rules render it significantly more problematic than it should be.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

So its ok to lob grenades at the guy who has no dodge pool left and no one else gets a throw?

That's not what I meant. As I said before, I had always assumed that grenades worked just like indirect combat spells. You choose a point, see the scatter, and everyone inside area of effect rolls reaction.

Police response to killing four people with an Uzi is substantially different than the response to killing the same four people with a grenade. Ask any cop in the world. Remember, if the players aren't throwing grenades, who's throwing them back? Do average cops and secd guards in your game have grenades? If so, I think I should remind you again: SR. Not Rambo.

Drug dealers in the favelas of Rio de Janeiro DO HAVE grenades and are not afraid of use them. Shadowrun being a distopian world, I can assume that the crime organizations might have them too and would not be afraid to use them inside "God forsaken lands" where even KE or LS don't go.
Afterall, not every run is made against corps, sometimes it is against crime organizations.

[Smokeskin]

I take it you guys don't use chunky salsa at your table?

The rule never made much sense anyway. How do fragmentation grenade shrapnel exactly rebound off walls?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

How do fragmentation grenade shrapnel exactly rebound off walls?

..two-to-three times, in fact?

[Smokeskin]

Maybe if they're made of rubber?

No, that wouldn't even do it: Confined space, 3 bored marines, and a Stinger grenade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQCsQf7wN6w

[Draco18s]

Maybe if they're made of rubber?

No, that wouldn't even do it: Confined space, 3 bored marines, and a Stinger grenade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQCsQf7wN6w

You know. A 'nade at that range in ShadowRun would have killed someone (even without Chunky Salsa).

Oh looky what I found (from the Army ROTC).

"Offensive grenades are much less lethal than fragmentation grenades on an enemy in the open, but they are very effective against an enemy within a confined space."

Now, that does say that frags don't bounce, but that the rule is logical. Note: by RAW a frag grenade will blow through 20 cm of brick before it "salsas."

[Rystefn]

Drug dealers in the favelas of Rio de Janeiro DO HAVE grenades and are not afraid of use them. Shadowrun being a distopian world, I can assume that the crime organizations might have them too and would not be afraid to use them inside "God forsaken lands" where even KE or LS don't go.
Afterall, not every run is made against corps, sometimes it is against crime organizations.

Wait... these guys are tossing grenades inside their own house? Really? If your point is that organized crime types might come looking for the runners with grenades, well... if you're pissing off those sorts of people and not taking proper precautions, them's the breaks.

[Rystefn]

Maybe if they're made of rubber?

No, that wouldn't even do it: Confined space, 3 bored marines, and a Stinger grenade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQCsQf7wN6w

Note that this is not a frag grenade.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Note that this is not a frag grenade.

Technically, it is. It just fragements rubber rather than steel.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Wait... these guys are tossing grenades inside their own house? Really? If your point is that organized crime types might come looking for the runners with grenades, well... if you're pissing off those sorts of people and not taking proper precautions, them's the breaks.

Not necessarely inside their houses, but they are top of the hill and toss them down, or even rob cars, take them in front of police stations and start lobbing grenades...
Anyway, my point stands, if you are on the "wrong" part of town where gangs, crime lords and creatures worst than the previous two live, worrying about KE or LS pursuing you, your pet, your friends and your family because you have grenades should be on the bottom of your "worry-list".

[Semerkhet]

Edit:
Imagine trying to play baseball. A baseball has roughly the same properties as a throwing grenade (wight, size, shape), but the strike-zone is one foot across. Anything but 0 scatter and it's a Ball.

I hate to mess with your Timmy example, but I feel compelled to point out that a regulation baseball weighs in at between 5 and 5 1/4 ounces, whereas the M67 hand grenade weighs 14 ounces. I'm not sure that 3x the weight qualifies as "roughly the same properties."

I only qualified on the grenade range three times (== 6 grenades thrown). That was, sadly, not enough practice to do anything more than throw the damn thing as far as I could at the tire pit and duck behind the wall without caring about where it landed.

[Rystefn]

Not necessarely inside their houses, but they are top of the hill and toss them down, or even rob cars, take them in front of police stations and start lobbing grenades...
Anyway, my point stands, if you are on the "wrong" part of town where gangs, crime lords and creatures worst than the previous two live, worrying about KE or LS pursuing you, your pet, your friends and your family because you have grenades should be on the bottom of your "worry-list".

...I'm sorry, I thought because you said something about the run being against the gang that might have something to do with the circumstances of people throwing grenades. If the GM kills you with a random grenade tossed by a ganger that has nothing to do with you, then your GM is either a complete dick, or is really gung-ho on the concept of a gritty, dystopian future where you could die at any time... or both. Probably both.

[Draco18s]

That was, sadly, not enough practice to do anything more than throw the damn thing as far as I could at the tire pit and duck behind the wall without caring about where it landed.

Defaulting != Skill of 6.

[Semerkhet]

Defaulting != Skill of 6.

I would like to think that years of casual ball-throwing experience would have given me a Throwing skill of 1 or 2. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) That gives me a whole 3-5 dice, depending on my own totally subjective estimation of my Agility. By the SR rules, I'm lucky the tire pit wasn't dodging.

[The Monk]

So just to recap, what do people think the rules should be changed to?

At our table we House Rule that each hit reduces scatter the number of meters equal to the amount of dice that it scatters.
For example, for 4d6 scatter, each hit reduces it by 4 meters.

Also you can aim at an area, making it a success test.

Vehicles only get to oppose the roll if it is moving.

[Ed_209a]

I think scatter is appropriate for hand grenades (Once you pull the pin, Pvt Frag is no longer your friend) and indirect fire like mortars.

Anything else, you don't scatter, you _miss_.

In other words, you need to flip the mechanism around. If you miss on your to hit roll, THEN you roll to see where the grenade shell/RPG really landed. An Ares Predator bullet might go speeding harmlessly out of the story on a miss, but a 25mm bundle of joy with a 4m casualty radius certainly doesn't.

[Rystefn]

I think scatter is appropriate for hand grenades (Once you pull the pin, Pvt Frag is no longer your friend) and indirect fire like mortars.

Anything else, you don't scatter, you _miss_.

In other words, you need to flip the mechanism around. If you miss on your to hit roll, THEN you roll to see where the grenade shell/RPG really landed. An Ares Predator bullet might go speeding harmlessly out of the story on a miss, but a 25mm bundle of joy with a 4m casualty radius certainly doesn't.

Actually, if you practice, you can put the grenade where you want it. I watched a dude throw a dummy grenade down the tube of a mortar. Of course, we all bet him he couldn't repeat the feat, and to our surprise (and rather a lot of money), he did it again.

[Draco18s]

Actually, if you practice, you can put the grenade where you want it. I watched a dude throw a dummy grenade down the tube of a mortar. Of course, we all bet him he couldn't repeat the feat, and to our surprise (and rather a lot of money), he did it again.

I did the opposite on an archery range. 15 meters and the guy had a fuking scope. I was the only one who took up the bet that he'd miss (which he did) and the double or nothing offer (and he missed again). I got two whole cans of soda out of it (hey, it was a BSA camp, betting isn't allowed).

[Method]

Vehicles only get to oppose the roll if it is moving.

I like that.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

...I'm sorry, I thought because you said something about the run being against the gang that might have something to do with the circumstances of people throwing grenades. If the GM kills you with a random grenade tossed by a ganger that has nothing to do with you, then your GM is either a complete dick, or is really gung-ho on the concept of a gritty, dystopian future where you could die at any time... or both. Probably both.

What the hell are you talking about?
What I'm trying to say is, if you run against crime organizations or gangs, in their own territories and said territories are the worst part of town where KE or LS don't give a fuck, you may expect that if said groups have grenades they wouldn't be afraid of use them whenever they needed, and so should you.
Where the fuck did I mention random grenades?

[Whipstitch]

Police response to killing four people with an Uzi is substantially different than the response to killing the same four people with a grenade. Ask any cop in the world. Remember, if the players aren't throwing grenades, who's throwing them back? Do average cops and secd guards in your game have grenades? If so, I think I should remind you again: SR. Not Rambo.it should be.

Maybe average cops and corp sec don't have them, but the Ancients, Halloweeners, Triads, Yakuza, response teams, Red Samurai, mercenaries, prime runners and terrorists might, and they're as big a part of the games I run as the corps. And honestly? I'm not so certain that facility security and lonestar officers who routinely have to enter low security zones won't have an HE grenade or two stashed in the locker room or in the car in case some seriously weird shit goes down. IRL cops don't have to deal with spirits, go gangs, feral ghoul colonies, weaponized drones or armor jacketed trolls hopped up on Nitro. SR4 cops do, and they live in a world where life being cheaper is part of the setting fluff. Having the grizzled lone star veteran who's seen it all stash a grenade in the glove box isn't really that far fetched. This is after all the same game world where everyone just threw their hands in the air and said "I guess we have to nuke Chicago."

I guess what I'm saying here is that Pink mohawk games are just as valid an expression of the SR game experience as that of the ice cold pro, and in such an environment Rambo wouldn't have lasted very long 'cuz he doesn't have the 'ware to hack it.

[Draco18s]

This is after all the same game world where everyone just threw their hands in the air and said "I guess we have to nuke Chicago."

Nothing says gritty like nuking a whole city because its the only solution to a bug problem.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Having the grizzled lone star veteran who's seen it all stash a grenade in the glove box isn't really that far fetched.

And if having to deal with ghouls, he'll just as likely bring Willy Pete to the party.

[Whipstitch]

Of course, the Bug City situation is obviously an exception that proves the rule, and so it stands to reason that the majority of gangers and show boating angry young men aren't going to really be any nastier then the ones running around out there today. The problem is that in SR the exceptional individuals are more dangerous and more common than they once were thanks to 'ware, combat drugs, the Awakening and cheap but effective combat armor.


Basically, the authorities occasionally have to deal with things that are just plain ridiculously dangerous from time to time. Perhaps Magicians don't lose their marbles all that often, but I can't imagine it'd take very many force 4+ spirit incidents to get the authorities to look into keeping some heavier firepower at the ready just as a precaution. After all, the cops don't fire their guns every day on the job, but they still carry them, so it's not that outlandish of an idea that they'd carry more things they hope to never have to use. By the same token, I would think that Sixth World DNR types would end up having to carry high power rifles with them more often. Are the majority of Awakened critters so dangerous that you would need a big gun just in case? Of course not. But you aren't carrying it for the majority of critters, you're carrying it for the one time you run into a rabid piasma.