Grenade launchers and the heavy weapons skill, Does this bother anyone else? Options

[Tyro]

Scatter uses pre-Anniversary Shadowrun 4 dice rolls.
Hits on the attack test do not affect scatter.
Scatter only occurs when the attack test Glitches

Attacker targets a character or location, and makes a single attack test.
Defenders in the blast area make a defense test against the attackers test.
Resolve as any other attack.

What do you mean by pre-Anniversary dice rolls?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Scatter uses pre-Anniversary Shadowrun 4 dice rolls.
Hits on the attack test do not affect scatter.
Scatter only occurs when the attack test Glitches

Attacker targets a character or location, and makes a single attack test.
Defenders in the blast area make a defense test against the attackers test.
Resolve as any other attack.

Not according to the Anniversary Edition Rules that I am currently reading there Muspelheimr... would you like to clarify that statement a little bit for me? See Page 155-156 for the Rules for Determining Scatter (for both grenades and rockets/missiles)... No Where does it state that scatter is the result of an Attack Test Glitch...

Keep the Faith

[Tyro]

Not according to the Anniversary Edition Rules that I am currently reading there Muspelheimr... would you like to clarify that statement a little bit for me? See Page 155-156 for the Rules for Determining Scatter (for both grenades and rockets/missiles)... No Where does it state that scatter is the result of an Attack Test Glitch...

Keep the Faith

He was responding to my request for a summary of suggested houserules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

He was responding to my request for a summary of suggested houserules.

Sorry Tyro, he may have been doing so, but the phrasing seems to indicate otherwise, at least to me....However, I could indeed be wrong about that...

Keep the Faith

[Rotbart van Dain...]

What do you mean by pre-Anniversary dice rolls?

2D6 scatter for rockets/missiles.

[Muspellsheimr]

The Anniversary printing doubled Scatter values. Sometimes, this is done in the Net Hits modifiers. For most, however, it's double the dice rolled.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Anniversary printing doubled Scatter values. Sometimes, this is done in the Net Hits modifiers. For most, however, it's double the dice rolled.

Which can be conveniently avoided with a Airburst Link... though the Net Hit Modifiers were indeed more preferable in SR4 (Pre Anniversary) and strained my Suspension of Disbelief much less...


That -4 Scatter/Net Hit was MUCH better than the increased Dice and -1/Net Hit... (For Rockets and Launcher employed Grenades)...

Keep the Faith

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Which can be conveniently avoided with a Airburst Link...

No, it can't - that one was doubled, too.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, it can't - that one was doubled, too.

What are you talking about...

Use of an airburst link reduces the Scatter from as High as 4d6 down to 2d6... add in a few points of a sensor on the actual ordinance (which you can add to such things as rockets/missiles and conceiovably even grenades) and you now have something that really only needs a net hit or two to hit exactly where you want it to on average... you will still get some outlying edge results, ocassionally, but not very often...

Yes, I know that it went from 1d6 to 2d6, but really, it CAN be compensated for with just a little bit of nuyen expenditure... implying (or outright saying) that it can't, is a bit disengenuous don't you think?

Keep the Faith

[Muspellsheimr]

Except Sensor ratings can only be used on Missiles.

And an Airburst can fire Grenades & Rockets - not Missiles.

Rules as Written



Funny thing is, the Rocket/Missile section claims that missiles fired with an Airburst reduce scatter to 2d6 - which cannot be done because, as written, an Airburst cannot fire missiles.




Edit:

What are you talking about...

Airburst 1d6 meters - 1 per net hit (- Sensor rating)

Airburst 2d6 meters - 1 per net hit (- Sensor rating)

[Rystefn]

So, let me get this straight... The response to the rules making a weapon nigh unusable in the game despite fairly high reliability in the real world is to apply future-tech upgrades? Why not just fix the broken rule?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Oh - here, some people even claim those rules are perfectly fine. Don't worry, that happend with the SR3 parachuting rules, too.

Personally, I'll go with this one:

Scatter happens only for Glitches (Net-Hits reduce Scatter without being lost)
Effects are like Indirect Combat Spells (Everyone in range gets it's regular Dodge, Net Hits, if any, increase Damage, Damage is resisted as normal)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Oh - here, some people even claim those rules are perfectly fine. Don't worry, that happend with the SR3 parachuting rules, too.

Personally, I'll go with this one:

Scatter happens only for Glitches (Net-Hits reduce Scatter without being lost)
Effects are like Indirect Combat Spells (Everyone in range gets it's regular Dodge, Net Hits, if any, increase Damage, Damage is resisted as normal)

Aside the scatter only happening for glitches (which I can understand why you use it for missiles) I've always assumed that a grenade worked just like an indirect combat spell, you choose a place, see where it hit, anyone on range that can dodge, try to and apply damage accordingly.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I've always assumed that a grenade worked just like an indirect combat spell, you choose a place, see where it hit, anyone on range that can dodge, try to and apply damage accordingly.

But that would be waaay too easy, wouldn't it? Shadowrun absolutly has to drag those randomizing rules like Starting Money and Scatter through every Edition - otherwise, it wouldn't be the same game, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It is my opinion that the scatter rules are kept, because it reduces the effectiveness of the weapon in question... if you used no scatter at all, the effectiveness of the weapon would be so good that characters would die even more than they do now... put someone in a small enough room say 8x10 and toss in 2 grenades... pretty much anyone in the room will end up dead... this is not fun... teh reaction rules and scatter allow some crazy things to happen... yes... This, I believe, is intentional... is it Annpying... sometimes, yes... can it be fixed using just the options presented in the book... sure... is it realistic... not totally.... but that is okay, it makes the game a little more survivable and that is okay...

I will put up with a little bit of tech upgrading to bring believability back in to the situation (as that tech must be available for a reason right?), but I am not all that sad that grenades/rockets/missiles are no longer as effective as they are in the real world (Which PreAnniversary Modeled slightly better in my opinion)...

@Muspellsheimr.... the contradictory evidence indicating missiles can use airburst becomes an interpretation at that point... yes, theree are 2 places that indiciate that you can either use it or not (the airburst link) for both Rockets and ZMissiles... At that point... you cannot argue that RAW prefers one over the other... as it has become ambiguous... now, the intent may prefer one over the other, but since I can indeed point to a place that says you can do it... my interpretation will work (even if it was not really the intent), and that interpretation plays okay, in my opinion...

You could also revert back to Basic SR4 Pre Anniversary Rules for Scatter... that also works... ... I did in fact indicate that there was indeed a difference between these rulesets... again, it is perfectly viable... I just prefer to use SR4A Anniversary for my Ruleset, which sometimes means that I make a compromise and go with a rule that may not model things that I believe should be different...

@Brazillion-Shinobi... That is a perfectly viable Houiserule... but will tend to make these weapons a little more deadly... which works... I have nothing against this houserule... just would not use it myself...

Keep the Faith

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Punctuation marks are no pack animals.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Punctuation marks are no pack animals.

So Sue Me...

Keep the Faith

[hahnsoo]

Yeah, I feel like I'm playing a Japanese console RPG, with so many ellipses. Mr. Period would like to have a word with you:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/10/11/

Use a single period instead of ellipses. It's almost always appropriate.

[Rystefn]

If you toss two grenades into a small room, yes, absolutely every person in the room should be dead. You should also expect an over-the-top law enforcement reaction to this choice. Action ---> consequences. If the players don't understand this, they deserve to have SWAT and HTR teams swarming all over them. This is ShadowRun, not Rambo the RPG.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

If you toss two grenades into a small room, yes, absolutely every person in the room should be dead. You should also expect an over-the-top law enforcement reaction to this choice. Action ---> consequences. If the players don't understand this, they deserve to have SWAT and HTR teams swarming all over them. This is ShadowRun, not Rambo the RPG.

Because it is ok to kill everyone in a room with 1 entire clip of ex-ex ammo but God forbid they throw two grenades inside?
I would agree that if by anything, the scatter rules are there to "protect" the players then the NPC's and yes, Shadowrun is a gritty game and violence is most of the time the answer (or the means) for everything, but it is better give the players a chance to escape instead of simply saying: "Rocks fall, everybody dies"

[Draco18s]

but it is better give the players a chance to escape instead of simply saying: "Rocks fall, everybody dies"

So its ok to lob grenades at the guy who has no dodge pool left and no one else gets a throw?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you toss two grenades into a small room, yes, absolutely every person in the room should be dead. You should also expect an over-the-top law enforcement reaction to this choice. Action ---> consequences. If the players don't understand this, they deserve to have SWAT and HTR teams swarming all over them. This is ShadowRun, not Rambo the RPG.

This is understandable to me...

Keep the Faith

[Dumori]

I agree that the Matrix is the world of binary, but with odd things like dessonance sprites and e-ghosts, there is more to it than just logic.

The soloution to mystic granade magic. Is use them only in the surprise round. Now they can't be lobed back at you and no one can react to your exploding balls.

[Draco18s]

This is understandable to me...

I take it you guys don't use chunky salsa at your table?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I take it you guys don't use chunky salsa at your table?

We definitely do... but the effect does you no good if you cannot actually get the grenade into the room...

Grenades in an Elevator... Priceless

Keep the Faith