CGL Speculation #7 Options

[Cain]

Ok, I missed it, where/when did Randall Bills claim faith and all that stuff? Could someone point me to that?

It's in the open letter to the freelancers. I don't feel like going through all the CGL speculation threads to find it, but I think it's in the first one.

[Shrike30]

Ok, I missed it, where/when did Randall Bills claim faith and all that stuff? Could someone point me to that?

I think it may have been erased. If you google "For those of you who don't know me, my name is Randall Bills" however, you ought to come up with the content.

[Dread Moores]

Anyone can do the right thing when they have no other choice. (Withheld copyright, licensor audit, creditors pursuing involuntary chapter 7.) Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking. Here's the kicker: they may be doing just that. We don't know. Most of the news has been negative, but JMH has a good point: we really don't know what's going on internally to the management team. He (JMH) might not know. But, if CGL/IMR is interested in winning back the disgruntled portion of the fan base, an open approach would go along way. As AJ pointed out: It's easier.

And that is exactly the part that is bugging me recently. There's certainly more than just that that upsets me in the situation, but this is the most recent. When things first broke, I can understand playing close to the vest. A lot was unverified, a lot sound like rumor-mongering, or carrying on old grudges. Once it spread to the extent that it has (minor outside of the online community, but fairly significant here), well, CGL's reaction was disappointing for me. It's something I've really enjoyed on the BT side, was having a great deal of open access and ongoing dialog the future product line and the processes taken to get those products to market. Randall's Battleblogs and Herb's weekly posts/tweets are good examples of what really kept me interested on that side of the product. But in this case, once you've gotten other owners discussing the situation, internal owner documents, leaking of drafts of future products...the cat's way out of the bag. It's time to start interacting more directly with the folks who are asking questions, at least to make sure there's a response to what's being discussed. I know Jason's done a lot to help in that regard where possible, but that's a management failing in my mind. Not on him, but on management itself.

Did they need to be posting here on Dumpshock or on the CBT forums? Definitely not. Did they need to keep their fingers on the pulse of the community, and have the press releases coming out far more regularly to address issues that pulse was clueing them into? You betcha.

[Sid]

I can roll with that. I can roll with RNB on vacation. Heck Obama took a vacation to Hawaii not very long before the election and that worked out pretty well for him.

Here's what I can't roll with: 1) RNB claiming religion as the reason for his actions. 2) RNB leaving JMH to bear all of the criticism (and by that I mean bile, hate & venom) that's been directed at CGL/IMR.

1)
You should read the leaked letter from Randall. Frank's criticism of Randall focused on only a small part of the letter- Randall talking about his personal relationship with the Colemans, and his reasoning for forgiving them on a personal level. Part of that had to do with his religion- but he specifically states in the letter that if it wasn't for other reasons (which he lists) then he would have asked Loren to step down.

The other reasons he lists specifically talk about, for example, how several professionals contacted CGL to advise them to keep Loren; including three 'titans'- two of which are 'intimately familiar with Topps', and are helping them renew the licences with Topps. The other reasons also include that Loren has contributed significantly to CGL's success thus far, and he believes his skills will continue to be a significant benefit, and that throughout his career, he's seen 'again and again' that giving people a second chance after a mistake instead of 'kicking them to the curb' benefits the company.

In short, Randall states that he decided to keep Loren in the company because they are far more likely to renew the licences with him in the company, he has significant support in the industry with 'titans', despite said titans knowing the situation, and that his skills are valuable and will continue to benefit the company. He concluded the letter with a personal note that he decided to maintain their personal relationship, in part, because of his religion.


2) I can't really comment on this one. That's between Jason and Randall- but again, in his letter, Randall states the fault is his. He says he failed to pay attention, and see the signs. I personally suspect that he isn't commenting to the fans more because Randall has suddenly found himself dealing with a lot more than he used to. His statment in his letter that he carries the blame for this mess because he didn't see the signs... jives with what I always figured about Randall- while he's an owner, I always thought of him as more part of the creative team than the management team. He was the Line Developer for Battletech for a long time (FASA and Fanpro I believe), and then was promoted to the head Line Developer with CGL. He's the one concerning himself with the books... while Phillip DeLuca seemed to be the one that ran the Battleshop and... Loren ran the finances and legalities. If I had to guess... Randall found out the hard way he should have been a bigger part of finances and management and is now taking over a lot of those responsibilities... so probably doesn't have a whole lot of time to dampen the fires. That, and he's always seems to have been more of the Battletech Community than the Shadowrun.

Though... I will add that as far as I know, Jason must be a masochist or something. As I understand it, his time here is entirely voluntary. Why he keeps coming here for more abuse is... a good question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Either way though, both of them seem to be much stronger men than me. I know I couldn't do their jobs- I'm stressed enough as is, and I'm just graduating college (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[BTFreeLancer]

That, and he's always seems to have been more of the Battletech Community than the Shadowrun.

Randall has been more occupied lately (as in before this all blew up) getting Leviathans off the ground, and dealing with the casual and other games (Like Balance of Power etc).

[Kid Chameleon]

I think the most important reason that Randall hasn't 'gotten rid of Loren' is that it isn't Randall's place to do so. Adjustments to management will come from the owners as a whole, following all the procedures and documentation that are needed.

[Fuchs]

I do not trust a vague "titans of the industry support Coleman" claim. First, "titans of the industry" is a meaningless term - you can call Coleman a "titan of the industry" as well. Second, such claims without naming the supporters are useless. If someone supports Coleman, then he/she should be named/name him/herself. If they're not willing to publically support Coleman then their support is meaningless to begin with. Third, no one can check the veracity of such a claim without names.

[Doc Chaos]

I do not trust a vague "titans of the industry support Coleman" claim. First, "titans of the industry" is a meaningless term - you can call Coleman a "titan of the industry" as well. Second, such claims without naming the supporters are useless. If someone supports Coleman, then he/she should be named/name him/herself. If they're not willing to publically support Coleman then their support is meaningless to begin with. Third, no one can check the veracity of such a claim without names.

And noone needs to be named. This is not a witchhunt. This is an investigation. So as soon as this thing goes to a court of law (and I can't see why it wouldn't) everything that needs to be known will be published. Everything else will stay silent and therefor have no impact on the ruling.

[knasser]

I don't agree that "Titans of the industry" should be obliged to publicly support Loren if they do, but I do have severe doubts that there are such things as "Titans of the industry". What would that mean? People who are so influential that they could have the slightest outcome on the legal mess that CGL appears to be in? Not a chance. People who have such financial resource that they'd be willing to step in and bail CGL out with financial assistance? Very doubtful and more fool them if they did. People whose opinion carries such weight that it will have any noticeable effect on sales to the public? I know of no such person and anyone who does give such public endorsement should be doing so on the basis of quality of product, not on the basis of a friendship with Loren Coleman, because their reputation will be mud the moment they do otherwise.

Honestly, I struggle to put meaning on "Titans of the industry" in any way that would have a positive effect on CGL distinct from anyone else's support. The only meaning I can see is a very, very negative one which is to say that some would broker deals, etc. on the basis of loyalty to Loren. E.g. "I'll sign this license 'cause you're my friend". I.e. it's code for serious corruption and back-scratching. I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to tie that anchor round their neck, though.

K.

EDIT: I've misread Fuchs, as has the previous poster. He didn't say that such "Titans" must be named, but rather that they must be named for their support to carry any weight with outsiders. That makes sense.

[Fuchs]

This is not about a court. Claiming "Coleman is supported by great people, which shall remain anonymous for now" is a bad statement from a PR and management point of view. The ones addressed, freelancers in this case, will ask themselves "Who supports him?" and then "and why can't or won't they say who supports him?", which does not inspire confidence and trust - which is the point of the claim in the first place.

[BTFreeLancer]

I do not trust a vague "titans of the industry support Coleman" claim.

To be perfectly blunt - the letter was aimed at the freelancers, not you. You can argue all about how the fans have a stake in this debacle, but in this case (the letter, and it's contents), it has nothing to do with anyone but the intended recipients.

[Fuchs]

To be perfectly blunt - the letter was aimed at the freelancers, not you. You can argue all about how the fans have a stake in this debacle, but in this case (the letter, and it's contents), it has nothing to do with anyone but the intended recipients.

Of course. But as I laid out above - the letter does not succeed in increasing trust and confidence where it needed to. Those who trust Randall Bills based on such a claim they can't verify nor quantify for lack of names would likely have trusted him anyway without the claim, since trust in him and his judgement is needed to trust the "titans" claim without any names. But those who do not trust Randall Bills (that much) will not start to trust him (more) based on the "titans" claim. Mabye they'll trust him less for the lack of proof for said claim, and the questions it rises. So, it was a bad move.

[hermit]

The only meaning I can see is a very, very negative one which is to say that some would broker deals, etc. on the basis of loyalty to Loren. E.g. "I'll sign this license 'cause you're my friend". I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to tie that anchor round their neck, though.

It sounds exactly like this, though, in Randall's letter:

Last week that belief received a huge chorus of support when we contacted and/or were contacted by numerous people in the industry, including three titans of the industry (I’m not at liberty to share their names to this large of a group without asking their permission). Each of those three were given a blunt (albeit very brief) synopsis of what occurred, and yet each still pledged their support to Loren and me in helping move forward (both in the incredible business savvy they possess that made them titans, but also in potential revenues to bring to the company). Furthermore, two of these people are intimately familiar with Topps and with their strong advice in our pocket we’ve already approached Topps.

I read this as saying: these people are exceedingly well connected within the gaming industry such as there is, and know the market and it's rules intimatly. Also, they have a good deal of influence with Topps. And Loren L Colman is the key to these ressources for Catalyst. And these Titans seem to have given their support on the condition Loren is kept around.

That is, at least, what I take from this.

[knasser]

It sounds exactly like this, though, in Randall's letter:


I read this as saying: these people are exceedingly well connected within the gaming industry such as there is, and know the market and it's rules intimatly. Also, they have a good deal of influence with Topps. And Loren L Colman is the key to these ressources for Catalyst. And these Titans seem to have given their support on the condition Loren is kept around.

That is, at least, what I take from this.

Now that you've highlighted the exact wording, you're right. It really does sound almost exactly like: "Loren's good friends with people in Topps and they'll let this slide". That's really bad. Hard to think of other interpretations to put on "intimately familiar with Topps".

K.

[Doc Chaos]

EDIT: I've misread Fuchs, as has the previous poster. He didn't say that such "Titans" must be named, but rather that they must be named for their support to carry any weight with outsiders. That makes sense.

I didnt misread him. We as a public and we as players and fans of Shadowrun still do not own a single pencil of CGL. So they don't have to tell us anything and don't have to reveal anything to us. There is a lot of anger out there at the moment (IMHO, justified anger) against Loren Coleman. If people who support him for whatever reasons would step into the public, they would face the wrath and hatred of thousands of people. They would be reduced to collateral damage in the witch-hunt against Loren Coleman which I can see brooding in the Shadowrun fanbase. I can perfectly understand them being angry (I am myself), but flinging mud at everyone who is assosiated with Loren Coleman on a friendly basis wont do anyone any good. And thats exactly what would happen if these people stepped into the open.

[Fuchs]

Now that you've highlighted the exact wording, you're right. It really does sound almost exactly like: "Loren's good friends with people in Topps and they'll let this slide". That's really bad. Hard to think of other interpretations to put on "intimately familiar with Topps".

K.

Without any names being given it's still just a claim without anything to support it. If you trust Randall Bills or his judgement you trust his claim, if you do not trust him or his judgement you don't trust the claim.

[Fuchs]

I didnt misread him. We as a public and we as players and fans of Shadowrun still do not own a single pencil of CGL. So they don't have to tell us anything and don't have to reveal anything to us. There is a lot of anger out there at the moment (IMHO, justified anger) against Loren Coleman. If people who support him for whatever reasons would step into the public, they would face the wrath and hatred of thousands of people. They would be reduced to collateral damage in the witch-hunt against Loren Coleman which I can see brooding in the Shadowrun fanbase. I can perfectly understand them being angry (I am myself), but flinging mud at everyone who is assosiated with Loren Coleman on a friendly basis wont do anyone any good. And thats exactly what would happen if these people stepped into the open.

There's a difference between being angry at people who are friends with Coleman, and being angry at people who support him staying in business (and who also might be friends with him). The latter is entirely justified if being angry at Coleman is justified.

[knasser]

I didnt misread him. We as a public and we as players and fans of Shadowrun still do not own a single pencil of CGL. So they don't have to tell us anything and don't have to reveal anything to us. There is a lot of anger out there at the moment (IMHO, justified anger) against Loren Coleman. If people who support him for whatever reasons would step into the public, they would face the wrath and hatred of thousands of people. They would be reduced to collateral damage in the witch-hunt against Loren Coleman which I can see brooding in the Shadowrun fanbase. I can perfectly understand them being angry (I am myself), but flinging mud at everyone who is assosiated with Loren Coleman on a friendly basis wont do anyone any good. And thats exactly what would happen if these people stepped into the open.

Yes, but what Fuchs said was that without actual people coming forward, claims that people support Loren in any meaninful way don't carry much weight. And that is correct. As Fuchs said, you either trusted in the first place, in which case this is merely reassurance, you didn't trust, in which case this carries no weight because there's nothing to back it up, or, as Hermit has pointed out, it makes it sound like collusion. And that just downright offends me.

You're addressing a point that Fuch's didn't make.

K.

EDIT: You also use the term "witch hunt". A witch hunt is where people erroneously persecute people without any evidence, Salem witchtrials, McCarthy communist phobia, etc. In this case, we actually have seen Loren turn someone into a newt. Whether or not they get better is still a big unknown.

[hermit]

Not saying this is good, at all, but if things went down as in my "I have friends at Topps" scenario, Randall would have been in a very uncomfortable position, with every choice he has being a bad one. Not exactly enviable. It's conceivable his faith may have helped him hold his nose and rationalise the decision he was basically forced to make in this scenario.

And again presuming my suppositions have a grain of truth in them - if names were leaked here, we'd have an all-new co-mingling of personal and business matters shitstorm at Topps at our hands. So it makes sense the names were not mentioned, from their point of view.

[Doc Chaos]

Now I'm getting your point. Goddamn language barrier... I stand corrected (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cardul]

I really only know of two Titans of the Gaming Industry who are still alive:
Steve Jackson and Kevin Siembeida. Some MIGHT consider Jordan Weisman
a "Titan of the Industry" as well, but since he is no longer part of the gaming
industry.

[knasser]

Now I'm getting your point. Goddamn language barrier... I stand corrected (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The Internet is where one person says "5 + 3 = 8" and another person says "3 + 5 = 8".

And then they fight.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Peace,

Khadim.

[Caine Hazen]

I really only know of two Titans of the Gaming Industry who are still alive:
Steve Jackson and Kevin Siembeida. Some MIGHT consider Jordan Weisman
a "Titan of the Industry" as well, but since he is no longer part of the gaming
industry.

Almost struck out, then you found the ball...

Remember, though we make lots of assumptions about the "industry" that Topps might have a different view. To some folks the "Industry" covers all toys and boardgames, as well as any video games spun off those lines. Meaning, DS's view of these "Titans" might be a tad narrow. You kids might wanna think outside the box (or books as it might be)

[JM Hardy]

[snip]

Though... I will add that as far as I know, Jason must be a masochist or something. As I understand it, his time here is entirely voluntary. Why he keeps coming here for more abuse is... a good question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Either way though, both of them seem to be much stronger men than me. I know I couldn't do their jobs- I'm stressed enough as is, and I'm just graduating college (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I know this is a relatively small matter to make a correction on, but I am in fact a paid staff member of CGL, so a lot of the posting I do here could be considered part of that job. I'm not required by the job to come here, technically, but it certainly seems like a good idea to me to try to stay in touch with fans. I want to see Shadowrun do well, with a regular line of good releases, and I love the game (I did other volunteer work, like my annual "Save Shadowrun fiction" meetings at GenCon), but I also have a financial stake in all this and I don't want to act like that's not the case.

Jason H.

[Method]

This can certainly be considered a "witchhunt" if guilt is cast on anyone who appears to support Coleman for any reason. Righteous anger has a way of misplacing itself.