Prisons and punishment, opening the books thats thrown Options

[Nikoli]

And let us not forget, the implantation of a datajack, according to the BBB (IIRC) is not considered invasive. it's a 2 hours task on an outpatient basis, you walk in, your get the implant, you walk out and either have a stiff neck or a slight headache for a day or two. I've had more hassle getting new glasses.

Also, a projecting mage is not limited to communication. They are able to attack astral forms, possess and become more powerful (astral quests).

You could of course just run them through brain washing to fear projection on threat of death.

[Abstruse]

Cruel and Unusual. I can say you can't use a computer during your probation, but I can't give you a lobotomy so you can't use a computer again. Hell, Kevin Mitnick's on the internet again.

If Single-A rated corps can afford wards, elementals, watchers, etc., why wouldn't a prison? Besides, why make every prison Mage-proof? You'd just need a couple of them. And you could always just ley very thick ivy grow around the cell walls.

The Abstruse One

[Moon-Hawk]

Just how many large, magical-security prisons would be required? Can someone more knowledgeable about the RL prison system give us some numbers? How many inmates are there in total? How many does an average prison hold? A large prison? I have no idea how many prisons are in the country. So how many large prisons would we need to contain (for simplicity's sake) 1% of the inmates?

[Wanderer]

[A Rodent of Unus...]

Unless they're using BTL or even CalHot levels of simsense, it shouldn't be much of an issue anyway. The simsense feed could even be of their everyday life, too. But since it's a simulation, there's nothing they can do to affect it with their magic.

I also have little doubt that by 2064 they'd have some medical means to tell when magic is being used, especially if a full simsense 'trode net was in use at the time. Heck, just putting some FAB-II in a ring around the head harness' neck that gets a regular refill, and then having sensors monitor the luminescence thereof, should be enough to send a warning to the jailers and/or trigger a KO drug or electric shock to incapacitate the prisoner.

[TinkerGnome]

[Nikoli]

A short trip down with a sudden stop I'd imagine.

[BitBasher]

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm
There you go.

2,033,331 inmates per year average in 2002. Take that and 1% of the total number of incarcerated persons that would be magically active would be 203,333 in any given year. Violent crimes convictions make up consistently nearly half of that. That's a whole freaking lot of prisoners.

while I'm at it, http://www.doc.state.nc.us/DOP/cost/cost2001.htm. That details the cost of housing each inmate in 2001.

That cost increases dramatically when the inmate requires dircect contact and monitoring, specifically medical.

Yes, I do work in a jail, for the LVMPD. This has been no hidden fact for the last few years I have posted here.

[Kagetenshi]

The number of mages would probably be lower than 1% of prison population simply because mages would, because of their abilities, tend to cluster higher on the socioeconomic spectrum than the general mishmash of mundane humanity.

~J

[BitBasher]

That's a very very bad assumption The world is full of morons with no ambition not living up to their potential. That doesnt change because they are magically active. Most people are ignorant and happy to stay that way. Magic would just be an easier path to crime. There would be a whole pile of incompetent half ass mages, just like now there are a whole pile of incompetent half ass humans.

[Kagetenshi]

But most skillsets that would otherwise be unused generally aren't actively hunted for by pretty much every corporation out there.

~J

[BitBasher]

No, I realize that, but im trying to say that 80% of the people out there you don't WANT to give that amount of power to, that's a Bad Thing™! I'm saying that it's good on paper but its just a really bad idea in the real world. It's really hard to explain just how jackassed criminal mentality is without spending a decent amount of time around them. Most of them wouldn't do the work to keep a good paying job if it bit them on the ass. Its pretty damn frightening really.

[Nikoli]

Also, you don't tend to be knocked unconscious when trying to turnon your computer when you aren't a very proficient or ambitious new user. Magic however has a potentially far more significant darwin effect.

[Wanderer]

[Nikoli]

There is a difference between Allowable punishment and maximum punishment.

just because the death penalty is available doesn't mean every criminal found guilty of it will be subjected to it.

You cannot rehabilitate a dead inmate. Every human being has an obligation to every other human being to be a productive member of society. Criminals are not productive members on the grand scale. They steal productivity from companies which directly steals money from everyone's pocket that does business with or for the companies.

Rehabilitate the criminal, show them there are options available to them that do not necessitate the use of violence on others to survive, that do not require underhanded or shady doings to get by and impress upon them the effects of the harm they have done to others and will do if they do not change their ways. If through all this a person does not respond, does not mend their ways, then society, to protect itself must remove them from the social group, such a person should be isolated from others, and given intensive education in basic reading and writing, taught a trade that will not make them a 'better criminal' and be put to work as productive persons (note I did not say citizens, inmates in a prison system do not and should not have the same rights and priveledges of a free law abiding citizen, to do otherwise invites criminal activity).

To ensure that a rehabilitated person is not coerced through social pressure to resume their criminal beghavior, society must strive to remove the stigma of 'ex-con'. History has taught us that people with such a past are given little opportunity to not return to teh old ways. They are repeatedly harrassed, they are shuned, they are denied work, yet we as a society are 'shocked' when they return to their crimnial behavior and we blame the system for failing us and them.

[TinkerGnome]

Inhumane? Try to convince a dozen mundane humans (ie, the Supreme Court of whatever its equivalent is) that making someone have the same magical ability as they personally possess is inhumane. If someone's above normal, cutting them down to normal is not inhumane.

I'd wager many folks would look at it much akin to laws which prevent felons from owning guns. Magic is a deadly weapon, and if you've used it that way once, you don't even need to aquire a new spell to use it that way twice. This is already supposing that the reformable mages (ie, those willing to work for the capturing corp or Lone Star, the government, etc) are taken out of the pool. I'm also not talking about a mage who goes down for tax evasion or the like. Violent felonies in which magic is the tool or an accessory seems to fit the bill pretty well.

I'd wager magically aggravated homicide would be a crime worthy of removal of all magic. How is knowing he might get turned mundane any worse than a life sentance in simsense prison? That'd be like saying that the three strikes laws generate more crime because the criminal knows he's going away for a long time if he gets caught (which, while possibly true, isn't a good reason not to use such laws or deterents).

[A Rodent of Unus...]

[TinkerGnome]

Society determines what is humane and what is not. There are many societies on earth, even know, who set the bar for inhumane acts much lower than even that. Sure, it seems inhumane to treat people of different races (even metatypes when you consider SR) differently than others, but there are places and times where that's perfectly fine. People get funny ideas about how to handle those different from themselves.

If you don't have a frame of reference for what someone is going to loose, you're less likely to think it inhumane. Virtually everyone can understand what it would be like to loose a limb or to become less intelligent... only .1% of the population can comprehend the loss of magical power.

Would a kingdom of blind men who had never been anything other than blind think it inhumane to make a sighted person blind? They don't understand what "sight" is, so to them, it's no different than having a baby's vestigal tail removed.

[Kagetenshi]

I could see things like this happening immediately post-Awakening or post-Goblinization. By the time the '40s roll around, though, it should be a thing of the past.

~J

[TinkerGnome]

While I'll agree that it's probably less common in the '60s than shortly after the Awakening, I'd say it's still on the books as a possible sentance. Quite probably akin to the way the death penalty is handled now.

And really, if you're talking about magically aggravated homicide by a person that the corps can't use (or refuses to be used), what other real options are there? I suppose you could implant a chipjack and given them a personafix as an effective deterent against reincarceration.

[BitBasher]

[Wanderer]

[TinkerGnome]

Again, while everyone might know what a mage can do, or even have some idea of what being a mage is like, does that make them sympathetic or even make them understand what it means to loose that?

I get the feeling that a mage who couldn't do magic anymore would get precious little sympathy from those who have never and will never be able to do magic.

[A Rodent of Unus...]

[Neon Tiger]

Ok, joke time:

. <- This is your @$$hole.
O <- This is your @$$hole in prison.


But, seriously how about building mage-only prison something like 10-20 meters underground, as it is very hard to go through the Earth in astral form. Then just put a few wards in the elevator shaft to stop anyone going through there. No need for that Awakened ivy or FAB or something very expensive like that.

As for using simsense loops or anything that deprives senses, that's a very good way to make someone completely insane. And after that insane guy get freed, he's probably going to some crowded place and start casting Extented-Area Fireballs in the crowd. Or do something like that.

Using drones and such to take care of the inmates would be rather good way, as highly technological things are really hard affect with magic.