 No surrender!, What's a GM to do? |
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 Sep 14 2005, 05:18 AM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918  |
Absolutely. And it is beautiful. |
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Sep 15 2005, 02:51 AM
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#77
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
This i have seen in my last group that i played with. The player in question was playing a rigger that had a "No Loss" attitude, Be it in combat, Equipment or Pay Negotaitions, he didn't want to lose. It got to the point where Johnsons were walking out of meets if they didn't like his (Usually unreasonable) demands or he would walk out of meets if he didn't like it. No compromise, and although it can in some insatnces be argued that the GM is also at fault, but in this case they weren't (Not me, I got to "play" for once) Because the group was small it only took 1 person to be hard ass about it, it didn't help ofcause that up untill my arrivly that, that character had the highest Social skills of the group (Thus defacto face), and my attempt to take over wasn't taken kindly as i was not so "hard assed" as they were. Thus being new to the group i "conceeded" the point. I talked to the player after teh game as he had to give me lifts home, and he said that it came from his other games were the GM was a Hard Ass, and that this GM was too soft.
Possible? Yes it is but not without a Stop, Carry on talk about it. No subtle shifting, All most a restart, IMO. |
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Sep 15 2005, 10:59 PM
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#78
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
[/wonders how a roleplaying game with no consideration for the survival of the character can still be called an RPG]
@ Mercer :grinbig: |
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Sep 16 2005, 04:56 AM
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#79
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Ok, for some reason this discussion stuck in my mind. Not meaning to bring up a dead subject, but now that I'm in a position to check, the back cover of the 1994 Lone Star sourcebook by Nigel Findley (RIP) reads: Header: You wanna call the cops, chummer? We ARE the cops. Subhead: To Serve and Protect? Copy: Get actual. Go-gangers, chipmongers, muscleboys -- the sprawl breeds 'em all like so much vermin. And the first lesson any cop learns is frag them before they frag you. Subhead: Welcome to the World of Lone Star. Copy: Some call 'em civilization's last hope against anarchy -- but anyone in the know will tell you they're simply the world's biggest street gang -- a bunch of bullyboys with badges, armed with the most novahot hardware money can buy. Copy: Lone Star is a Shadowrun sourcebook that describes the ins and outs of the corporate law-enforcement agency known as Lone Star Security Services. Organization, procedures, personnel, history and assets -- it's all here, as well as a revealing look behind the gleaming chrome badge. Copy: A sourcebook for use with Shadowrun, Second Edition. |
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Sep 16 2005, 05:14 AM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
I actually haven't seen "no surrender" leak over into a group before. On the other hand, GMs I play with are rarely hardassed.
Of course, the "no surrender" attitude can also breed some brilliant gaming moments. I remember a run I gm'd that was set in San Francisco - and the PCs had to go up against Red Samurai. Without any guns. Others might have given up, but they rose to the challenge and pulled some brilliant moves. Didn't hurt that one was a powerful adept, of course. That was the run where it was graphically illustrated why you don't use someone else's stealth grapple line . . . |
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Sep 16 2005, 05:17 AM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Someone please stop me if I'm breaching protocol by quoting from SR material, but a few pertinent passages from the Lone Star sourcebook:
pg. 100, Operation Procedures "'The arresting officer must transport the perpetrator to the nearest Lone Star precinct house for processing. Lone Star will immediately assign a SIN to any perpetrator who cannot produce an existing number.' [runner comments removed except for the following] ...If you leave a flake of skin behind at a crime scene ten years later and they bother to DNA-type it, they can link you with whatever's going down whether you were involved or just passing through. Yet another incentive to not get yourself pinched... 'Once officially charged with committing the offense, the perpetrator must undergo a series of scans and sample tests to confirm his or her identity. These procedures include a cyberware scan, a blood test, a DNA scan, a fingerprint and hair-sample test, and a retinal scan.'" [runner comments removed] 'These indentity-verification procedures are performed in the biotech ward of each precinct station and must be supervised by the arresting officer to ensure that the samples are taken correctly. Any illegal cyberware the perpetrator is wearing should be promptly disabled/removed at this time.'" pg. 103, Operation Procedures "If Lone Star gathered evidence at your arrest indicating that you were involved in a run against a corporation, the cops may approach that corp and send out feelers on entering into a 'short-term interterritorial contract' -- a deal lasting just long enough to hand you over to your target corp." Ug. Off-topic: God bless runner comments. Sigh. |
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Sep 16 2005, 06:48 AM
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#82
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Does Paranoia RPG ring a bell? It's just a different kind of roleplaying. Roleplaying games exist such that the players of the game can assume the identity of someone else. A common theme in RPGs is being able to do things that you wouldn't be able to do in real life. Folks who play RPGs who "never surrender" are simply taking advantage of the fact that when your character dies, you as a player don't die, and you can simply roll-up a new one. People who don't want to "never surrender" in real-life can take the opportunity in a roleplaying game to assume the persona of someone who is just that hardcore in the game world. It's a different mindset, certainly. |
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Sep 16 2005, 11:37 AM
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#83
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I would agree with hahnsoo up to a point. If I decide that a particular character is going to be suicidal, or just crazy enough to prefer death to losing, then thats a role-playing decision. But if every character I make is that way regardless of their personality, or if I decide its easier to get killed off than to have to make a hard decision about something, then thats not really a role-playing decision.
As a player, its pretty easy to do a lot of things that its typically hard for actual people to do, because we're only considering them abstractly, and generally innocently. As a player, I can chuck a grenade into a crowded bar if I think it'll help me complete a mission, and who cares how many imaginary people get hurt? It's just boxes on a sheet. But for a real person to do something similar, if they have any shred of humanity, its more difficult, or at least more complicated. (Which is not to say there aren't plenty of people in the world who do things like that or much worse, just that whether a person is sociopathic or psychopathic or just an a-hole is again a different dynamic from a player making a decision in a game.) For me as a player, I decided that if I'm going to play a character, I should play him as though he thinks he's real, and the consquences of his actions will affect real people (including himself). I think it makes the game more interesting, because I feel the actions are more believable. Movies and books tend to be more interesting when the characters seem more like real people than fake characters in made up situations. Why should a game be any different? |
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Sep 16 2005, 11:55 AM
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#84
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Considering the mindset of most Shadowrunners, I have no problem believing that they are psychopaths, sociopaths, etc. :) They do crimes for money... while not always amoral, you have to have some sort of moral flexibility to play Shadowrun's default setting (in alternate settings, of course, everything flies out the window). Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Grosse Pointe Blank: Debi: You're a psychopath. Martin Blank: No, no. Psychopaths kill for no reason. I kill for *money*. It's a *job*. That didn't come out right.
Some people may disagree... after all, reality TV is supposedly "real" but for me it's just not as compelling as the totally made-up BS that goes on in Stargate SG-1. I personally agree with you, and indeed, my goal for roleplaying in certain games is to flesh out the personality of the character and really think and feel as the character would feel. This is close to "method acting" and is what one of my play directors called "surrendering to the character".
However, roleplaying encompasses far more than that... bringing a character to life doesn't necessarily mean fleshing out "real" thoughts and experiences for that character. Some people roleplay to be a hero or villain. Some simply like to "win". Some folks find enjoyment in solving puzzles or dealing with relationship conflicts. I'm simply recognizing that "never surrender" may simply be the kind of roleplaying where you as a character can do things that you as a player simply cannot do. It may not be a point of view or goal that I can understand in the context of playing Shadowrun, but in other roleplaying games it can be the accepted or even required (Call of Cthulhu and Paranoia, for example). |
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Sep 16 2005, 06:24 PM
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#85
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
Of course, Lone Star is radically unlikely to look for skin flakes, let alone DNA type them, as it costs time and money. And all it proves is you were at the site, not that you were in any way involved in any crime that was committed there.
That’s expensive, which the corporation won’t like. I’d expect Lone Star beat cops, especially if they’re only getting 20,000 nuyen a year, to favor bringing in dead perps or ‘fining’ the lesser criminals and letting them go.
Meanwhile, the arresting officer has to hope that the dangerous criminal doesn’t use any of his illegal cyberware before then. Of course, the best way to insure this doesn’t happen is to deliver deadly levels of physical or stun damage to the perp first.
Now this is interesting. Lone Star gets the chance to look good solving a crime on someone else’s jurisdiction and they get money from the other corporation. |
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Sep 16 2005, 06:55 PM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Routine police work for the future. Hell, any major crime scene in our own day and age is dusted for prints, fiber vaccumed and everything else. Blood found at the scene is routinely DNA-typed in capital crimes. These procedures will only become more routine and more inexpensive. ANd sometimes proving someone was at the scene is, by itself, enough to convict when confronted with other circumstances. Well, at least on every police procedural on TV these days. Surely that's a good enough standard for sci-fi fiction? =) |
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Sep 16 2005, 06:57 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Well, I didn't bother to mention the various restraint methods the book goes on to outline. Suffice to say that there are restraining devices for all forms of criminality: normal cuffs, cyber restraints, mage masks and psychoactive drugs. |
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Sep 16 2005, 09:45 PM
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#88
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Any of these restraint methods can be defeated by someone with reasonable foresight or, as the chaos mage I made up just now put it, "Magemask smagemask; I have a spur that pops out of my face." |
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Sep 16 2005, 10:08 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
I'm not here to argue, but your "face spur" would show up on their cyberscanner when you're booked and would be disabled or removed. It should also be noted that the book details how Mage Masks are last resort treatments after psychoactive drugs have proven ineffective. The 2nd Edition cyberscanner detailed in the Lone Star sourcebook DOES have a rating, as as such can be spoofed. Not sure how the SR4 version of the cyberscanner reads. The effects of psychoactive drugs, for that matter, can also be mitigated when provided with enough foresight and knowledge of Star procedures. |
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Sep 18 2005, 02:29 PM
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#90
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Wahhh! :( I wanted to get into this thread earlier but my brain is shutting down on even the simple task of trying to add up my overtime...
I think part of the problem is the discussion is largely centered in game, with considersing some of the 'above table' aspects. In almost all cases, people do not surrender when they see surrender as the worse alternative. So, if you want someone to surrender to you, you must make surrender appear to be an apealing alternative. Part of the reason that many GMs tend not to get PCs to surrender is that they don't try very hard to make surrender appealing. There are both in game and out of game techniques that might be involved here. The other problem is one of power dynamics. 'Surrender' works best when both sides get something they want, the two gunslingers who decide to 'fight next time', for example. However, the GM is esentailly all powerful so it is very difficult to present 'equal seeming' terms to the PCs, after all, what has the GM got to lose? I suspect that the large multi-player games where 'negotiated terms' occur between player groups will tend to produce much more 'realisitic results' both groups have something to gain and/or lose, so there can get negotiation. In surrender to the forces of the GM, the PCs are required to 'give up' something but the GM needs to 'give up' nothing, as the GM can simply pull more resources 'out of the air'. I also suspect computer 'moderated' games, where the GM interacts with the players through 'avatars' and not as the 'voice of god' will change the dynamic as well. |
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Sep 18 2005, 03:50 PM
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#91
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I've never seen it this way. Surrender to NPCs is not the same as surrender to the GM. In fact, a player-vs-GM mentality is one thing that you certainly want to avoid (Unless you're playing Amber, apparently). There is no sense in either one trying to win anything from the other. |
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Sep 18 2005, 11:28 PM
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#92
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
[QUOTE=coolgrafix]I'm not here to argue...[/QUOTE]
C'mon coolgrafix, we're all here to argue. There's no shame in it, son. [quote=Crusher Bob]The other problem is one of power dynamics. 'Surrender' works best when both sides get something they want, the two gunslingers who decide to 'fight next time'[/quote] That's not surrender, thats a cease fire. Surrender is, "Please don't kill me." Or, at best, "I submit to your numerical superiority and will lay down my gun." Prisoners of war don't agree to meet back on the battlefield tomorrow. I'm not here to argue, though. I do agree with: [quote=Crusher Bob]In almost all cases, people do not surrender when they see surrender as the worse alternative. So, if you want someone to surrender to you, you must make surrender appear to be an appealing alternative.[/unquote] [quote=hyzmarca]Any of these restraint methods can be defeated by someone with reasonable foresight or, as the chaos mage I made up just now put it, "Magemask smagemask; I have a spur that pops out of my face." [/quote] Now thats really clever. As pointed out, it would detected during a cyberware scan, but only if they think to check. A lot of times pc's just toss a mask (or duct tape) on a mage and go, even cops are going to have to wait until a full scan can be done. It also gives me the idea of making a mage with an eye gun, just for being able to shoot holes in a mage mask. Something about a hold-out pistol loaded with APDS clearing your field of vision I find humorous. |
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Sep 21 2005, 09:46 PM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 6-January 03 From: In front of my laptop Member No.: 3,860 |
Never ever let the corp, dragon, AI take you. Remeber if they really wanted you for something they could just pay you. You are a shadowrunner.
I am not saying balls to the wall, guns blazing at all times, but think about the world your PC lives in. Sammy gets arrested, all your best ware comes out. That is a huge part of who you are. Mage gets arrested and out as an mage. He gets to ware a magemask and listen to Yanni or what ever they pipe into those things. Or, just shot because they don't know what to do with him. Maybe the adept, face, or decker would be ok, but for most PCs getting arrested is game over. Thats the cops the "good guys". I wont go in to the carinal bombs, ritual magic, or just plain weird stuff that can happen in other cases. |
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Sep 21 2005, 10:48 PM
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#94
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
One thing about surrendering in a completely hopeles situation when you know that they won't just kill you is that it can give you an opportinuty to escape later. This is rare, of course.
In most situations fighting to the death is probably the best possible tactic. This is certainly true when random street thugs attempt to kidnap you. Oprah actually had a show about that once. If you are attacked and your attacker asks for goods or money you should comply. However, if he tries to take you to another location the A) he is plannig to do bad things to you and B) he isn't confident that he can get away with doing those bad things at your current location. Therefore you are often safer standing your ground and fighting instead of going with an attacker. In most situations attacking thugs will flee from combat. When choosing to surrender or not there are three important questions to ask, Why do they want me? What is their Modus Operandi for dealing with runners? Do I have a contingency plan? If questions 1 and 2 are benign then you are safe surrendering to them. Otherwise, you have to fall back on question 3. Do you have a prepared plan that would let you escape from them? There are many good contingencies to have. The most obvious is the Dead Man's switch contingency. The Dead Man's switch contigency is rather simple in its execution but intricate in its design. If you don't report in safely at a certain time then something that your captor(s) do(es) not want to happen will happen. You can't be killed and you can't be held hostage for too long without severe reprucussions. This can range from "I wish I could stay Mr. Brakenhaven but if I don't get back to my apartment and make a call by 8:00 PM trideo of your wild night with the Timmy the Ork and Bruno the Troll will be sent every registered member of Humanis" to "This briefcase contains a nuclear bomb. It isn't a very big nuclear bomb but it is big enough. This display connected to my implanted biomoniter. Also connected to my biomoniter is the detonator for this bomb. It would be in your best interests, as well as mine, for you to let me walk out of here alive" Other contigencies would be 'ware, skills, spells, powers, and metamagics designed to defeat locks and restraints. You may not be able to defeat them all but when they throw you into a cell with olny one guard you will be able to open that cell and take out the guard. As for Dragons, there is an old saying; never deal with a dragon. It should be accompanied by never refuse a deal from a dragon. |
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Sep 22 2005, 08:38 PM
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#95
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
Especially when there is another dragon who want's your hoop. One of my characters (along with her chummers) is in that very position. Hestaby.... or....Lofwyer? The bad....the truly "evil" Y'know Shasta's pretty nice this time of year.... |
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Sep 24 2005, 11:46 PM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
The standard on those police procedurals is that the criminal always gets caught no matter how clever or thorough they are. That works very poorly with running a Shadowrun game. |
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Sep 25 2005, 09:55 AM
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#97
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Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 5-September 02 From: Everywhere and Nowhere Baby Member No.: 3,225 |
I would think that if a group had adopted the no surender attitude then it would have to be fixed OOC more then IC.
In the example of a couple of no surrender players always trying to force there demands on the Mr J. You can of course play it out and just have the Mr J tell them "No its not worth it I will contact someone else" and then walk out. Do that a few times and the group might rethink its plan, but will more likly say your a rubbish GM. So like I say disgussing it out of character might be the way forward. Of course problems with a no surrender or a i win GM are equally disturbing. |
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Jan 20 2006, 04:19 AM
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#98
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I don't understand what's wrong or unbalancing about a no surrender character. If things don't go his or her way, the character dies. The GM shouldn't "save" a no-surrender character since that would take away from the gravitas of the situation. As usual, always let the dice fall where they may.
I ran a few no-surrender characters whom I was basically planning to kamikazee sooner or later. Now, being no-surrender and then whining when you die is silly. But I'd think someone who wanted to make a no surrender character wouldn't be too upset when that character met the inevitable. |
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Jan 20 2006, 04:27 AM
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#99
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Sounds like a good way to make your game transform into something from the dark corners of the internet when 14 year olds get together to play and there's one supposed female player in their midst. |
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Jan 20 2006, 04:39 AM
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#100
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Oh, how the little angels rise up, rise up, rise up
If shape change can change your species, it can certainly change your gender as well. So this can be an equal opportunity bestiality pron game. |
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