 The Horrors and Death Magic? Answers In Earthdawn, And Who's Really Behind Aztlan-SPOILERS- |
  |
 Jan 20 2004, 12:55 AM
Post
#151
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
(Emphasis added) So I don't think it's at all unusual for us to refer to the FASA- and FanPro-produced works, and the contents within, as canon. ~J |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Jan 20 2004, 03:02 AM
Post
#152
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
You could also add:
But hey, there is only one meaning, just like there is only one possible theory. Everything and everyone else is wrong! :S :please: |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 20 2004, 05:26 AM
Post
#153
|
|||||||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 93 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,576 |
Why would that stuff be in the book? Gee, I dunno, for flavour? A clear description of a vampire? What the hell? I don't recall meeting a vampire in Shadowrun meeting that description exactly. What could she be? Perhaps a wacked out elf on bad ju-ju, suffering a list of ailments from the stuff. Simply her body can't handle the bad joules of magic going through her. Or how about a hallucination of the mind of simple folk, to make it easier to explain the deaths? HMHVV has to be caused by magic? And exactly how are you such an expert on HMHVV, its origin, and the specific requirements of magic abuse for its origin? Perhaps it had more to do with human sheep herders in the 4th age bumping uglies with Awakened sheep. Hey, there is a good theory on its origins, prove me wrong.
Excuse me, but until you have the artist, writer(s), editor and line director confirm that, I request you shut your pie-hole.
Yes, yes it is. Look at what FASA had just done, shortly before the release of Earthdawn. They had this really popular game called Shadowrun, which turned RPGs on their ears because of something radical and new - a focus on the beliefs and culture of Native (North) Americans. Many people bought the game because of the radical departure of other games, not only the system, but also the setting. I recall early Earthdawn products always had a Meso-American feel to them (or that is what I recall). Why? Because the FASA guys knew that the same old European or Asian style of setting was already getting boring, with D&D, Oriental Adventures, and others already using those styles to death. No one had as of yet used the Meso-American style (TSR would later try, and fail IMO, with a Forgotten Realms sub-setting), so they used that as the foundation for the art and architecture of their setting. As to why the Shadowrun mythos used the Mayan calender, hey, it was there and it was useful to use it to explain the Awakening. If FASA had access to an Old Norse Calender that foretold the day of Ragnorok, odds are they would have used that. Dude, its just marketing. Thats why you can't really trust an art style to base a theory on.
You know, after his initial explosion, Ancient History was trying to make amends and discuss this with you. Too bad you come across as such a spiteful and insecure person that you couldn't do the same. You sir (or ma'am, gotta be gender equal), are a loser. You coulda had some theories worth listening to, but I tend to have hard of hearing when it comes to sanctimonious blowhards. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Jan 20 2004, 07:41 AM
Post
#154
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 14-January 04 Member No.: 5,978 |
You need to fold that hand because you're playing with garbage. We have a clear description fitting HMHVV nearly perfectly, from the only appearing at night, from being powerful and, as you yourself observed 'simply be death magic to extend Eletheria's life. Right, that's what HMHVV do, they consume the essences/souls of their victims to extend their lives. HMHVV is prevelent in the 6th world, it must have started somewhere. In the 4th world it is nota big concern but there is specific reference to the classical 'Vampire' in Companion which mentions such a Vampire can be warded off with garlic. We have HMHVV in the 4th Age, but there can't be many, so we're close to the source, before it expanded throughout the world, as it is in the 6th world. So where did it start? Well, we have a pretty clear description of HMHVV arising in a blood mage, perhaps even horror mage from the Blood Wood. Eletheria is described in such a way that the clear impression is that she is the first HMHVV carrier. Someone claimed that this couldn't be because HMHVV existed before Eletheria, if that is the case, then Eletheria being the first would be wrong. But those who made those claims have yet to back any of them up so as it stands, we're left with a description of a blood magician's dark research possibly involving Horrors, with the result that she is now a night-walking, powerful blood drinker who, as someone put it, probably is using the feedings to prolong her life. When trying to figure out the 'real' connections, you have to look at the descriptions and rumors presented in the books. Either it is clearly stated, or it is rumor and vague which is why it takes effort to piece this together. If it was clear, there wouldn't need to be a discussion. I think the Lady protesteth too much about 'standards' for acceptance. I recently read a long, rambling post which was an attempt to string together rumors and descriptions from the Earthdawn books for a 'history' of E. That was filled with ramblings and unfounded speculations galore. Is 'Wordsmyth,' Ehren? Of course. Is it ever stated specifically in ANY S book that Ehren is Wordsyth? No, it isn't. So how can you explain the selective standards for acceptance? Ehren is 'Wordsmyth' not because it specifically says so anywhere, but because we know 'Wordsmyth' is powerful in Tir Tairngire, that he has an adversarial relationship with Laughing Man, who is Harlequin (though where does it state that’ Laughing Man’ is Harlequin specifically, or even that Big D is Dunkelzahn?) and that Ehren is a writer as well as adversary of Harlequin. It's clear that Ehren is 'Wordsmyth' but NOWHERE IS THIS SPECIFICALLY STATED. You follow? Nowhere is Eletheria specifically called the 'Queen of the Damned.' But if we were only interested with what is specifically stated, there wouldn't be much to discuss. 'Wordsmyth' isn't for 'flavor,' but is a major player in the meta-plot. HMHVV is secondary to E/S as a whole, but it is an important fact of the game. The rumors about Eletheria, as specific as they are, serve a purpose. As do the RUMORS of a Dragon being behind Aztlan, and the RUMORS that the Dragon is corrupted, and the RUMORS that Juan is an Immortal. If you want to claim that Fire Dragons are behind Aztlan because of some much vaguer and less specific rumors and claims that you still haven’t produced yet, then you should be convinced by the Queen of the Damned. Since there is specific game evidence (rumors) tying her to dangerous blood magic and the strengths and weakness associated with HMHVV, which is far more than your non-specific rumors of Feathered Dragons. To claim that since it COULD be a mosquito, and that there is no reason to think it's Eletheria is laughably absurd. 'Wordsmyth' could be a mosquito as well, or me, or it could be Dunkelzahn or Big Foot. If you want to argue facts, that's fine, but don't be an ass. All we're doing is looking at unspecific data and trying to infer what and who it refers to. That's what we do with Ehren, the same with Eletheria. If your original claim that HMHVV existed prior to Eletheria is factual, then she couldn't be Queen of the Damned. But that claim wasn't based on anything in Earthdawn, was it? So you either accept the specific description of her, or you must make absurd excuses for why it can't be correct and why what is specifically stated is just a titanic coincidence. Believe your eyes, you're making this harder than it needs to be. If your claim that Fire or Feather Dragon(s) are behind Aztlan because they live in warm climates and practice blood magic, you should at least give us all some quotes that are the basis of your hypothesis, because by itself, that's pretty weak. In Aztlan, the corrupted Dragon that is spotted is EASTERN, not Feathered, though who knows is that is THE Dragon, but it's not Feathered. The type of THE Dragon behind Aztlan is unspecified with contradictory rumors. If there was a single strong rumor, we could take that and run. There isn't. So laying money on a Feathered Dragon is a pretty risky proposition. If the claim is that a local Great Feathered is behind Aztlan, a rival of Hualpa, then why doesn't Hualpa recognize the magical signature behind Aztlan? Why doesn't he recognize Juan, clearly a human immortal who is the servant of THE Dragon? Hualpa is a great and I'm sure he knows great Feathered Dragons, particularly those who, according to you, lived right next to him. But Hualpa has no idea who's behind Aztlan. I guess it could be a Feathered Dragon from India, thus Hualpa wouldn't be expected to know them automatically, but there is no reason or evidence to think THE Dragon is Feathered anyway. So you have a groundless speculation of THE Dragon being Feathered, and even that doesn't fit. Your entire argument seems to be that since Feathered dragons lived there, one must be behind it. Just because Fire Dragons use blood magic DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE CORRUPT. Hualpa isn't corrupt. AZTLAN IS CORRUPT. Feathered Dragons lived elsewhere and no Aztech version in India or Africa. The Aztlan Explanation explains THE dragon behind Aztlan. Unlike Vestrivan, Charcoalgrin isn't dead. Vestrivan and Charcoalgrin are both local Russian Dragons and Aztlan is on the other side of the world. I have explained how Charcoalgrin got on the other side of the world, how did Vestrivan get there after he came back to life? More ridiculous excuses to deny the obvious. If you want to claim that because Feathered dragons lived in C America, and elsewhere, so they must be behind Aztlan feel free. If you want to claim that a known dead dragon came back from the dead and decided to move to the other side of the world to start Aztechnology, you certainly can. The Aztlan Explanation is thorough, based on the established game facts and is not contradicted by what we know of E/S. If you're not allergic to history, get a Mexican history book and the Parlainth Boxed set to see for yourself. I can't post the pictures proving it, but only weak excuses and denials are the basis for your disagreement. Some unnamed, unknown in Earthdawn, Feathered Dragon with an unknown relationship to Juan, and a mysterious ability to fool Hualpa the Alpha Male of the Feather Dragon world, who is corrupted COULD be the answer. But considering that there is no reason or evidence to think that, it's highly unlikely. Follow the facts, follow the mysterious forgettable city and everything fits into place. The Dragon rumored to be insane and Corrupt, rumored to have a human immortal as a puppet just like Juan, and happens to be the mistress of the amazing disappearing and forgetting city that happens to be Teotihuacan, the heart of Aztlan. Aztlan Explanation puts names and faces tothese rumors while any wild speculation could be posited, WHAT USE IS IT AND WHAT DOES IT EXPLAIN? This Explains Aztlan. This is just a game and referring to this stuff as 'canon' is too pretentious, even for me. But this is still as clear and factual as Ehren being 'Wordsmyth,' even though this is never specifically stated. Don't get yourself into more trouble by making claims that you can't back up (see the first few pages on this thread), but if I'm wrong, I would appreciate being corrected. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 20 2004, 08:08 AM
Post
#155
|
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I see you with a pair of 2s and AH has 3 Aces.
Still no Canon references I see. Pity. Don't get yourself into more trouble by making claims that you can't back up (see the first few pages on this thread), but if I'm wrong, I would appreciate being corrected. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 20 2004, 09:36 AM
Post
#156
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 19-December 03 Member No.: 5,920 |
Good Point, Obsidimen are unlikely to been within humanity. T'skang on the other hand, depends if you want to intepret evolution + magic side of things, some scientific circles refer to the instinctive side of the brain being the old reptile side. T'skang could awaken from the reptilian genes that we may still possess, from when mammals evolved from reptiles. I'm no zoologist so this could be entirely wrong, however it appeals to me that powerful, knowledgable individuals may have targeted either humanity or perhaps animal species with Vitas (After all who'd have noticed if a high percentage of crocodiles died during Vitas) to eradicate the chance of them returning. This could have been deployed against other species, such as the Jackelmen, or they could have simply not made it. Max |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 20 2004, 12:09 PM
Post
#157
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 14-January 04 Member No.: 5,978 |
All that matters in life is what you care about. What matters to you. You clearly care about Earthdawn and there are many who clearly appreciate your effort and hard work. That matters. So I wish you good luck.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 20 2004, 03:32 PM
Post
#158
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 20-January 04 From: Spain Member No.: 5,995 |
I never played ED, i dont know whic is it game system, neither rules...nothin about ED. im playing SR since second edition, lacking some of the 1 ed sourcebooks only. I never been very interested with the links between ED and SR beyond "Yes, there are 2 games in the same game world but in diferent ages".End. No more. Of course there are tons of links between them spread in sourcebooks, but i like shadowrun world. Shadowrun is my loved rpg since i got second edition . I play shadowrun not Earthdawn. I dont need to know If Big D was a great dragon in ED or not to run my games. These links arent very useful for my campaigns. I suppose that these links will be used by FanPro folks in the future to decide the fate of shadowruns timeline, but i have enough information to run my games without these links. Ive been playing SR for 12 years only as a Gamemaster, and i didnt use all the plots i have in mind.
Yes, IE, horrors and so on are a very cool source for games, but i never will focus my sessions with them. I used them in Harlequins campaigns and few more sessions. And one of the things that make me happier was when i read in the official FAQ "While FanPro will not ignore these links, we have no intention of making them a primary focus of the game"...i thought "thank you very much. Try to forget those links and concentrate in develope the SR world" Why im saying this? only to make clear that this thread (and similar ones in the past) arent interesting for my shadowrun world, i use to skip this kind of post...just a quick look and no more. But this one caught my attention (my sceptic attention) and using the equivalence Toturi made few post ago....i see master shake with a pair of 2, and Ancient world with empty hands. Best regards P.S:Apologies for my broken english |
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 02:13 PM
Post
#159
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,114 |
Well, Master Shake, about your theory on Eletheria Escalanas being the first vampire, there was some time ago a poll in this forum, and 84% of the voters think she is NOT the first vampire.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that because the majority say she isn't, the majority's right. What I am saying is because so much people believe she isn't the first vampire, it isn't so obvious as you may think. And again, one thing: you said she was experienting about dark magic. In fact, that's the official reason she was banned from the Wood. But you can see it differently. Eletheria and Kethos Escalanas were lovers, and the queen Alachia wanted Kethos, so she could have designed the story about dark magic only to cast Eletheria away. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 09:00 PM
Post
#160
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
Captain Picard can kick Captain Kirk's ass.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 09:15 PM
Post
#161
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Neo could take them both without even having to act.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 09:42 PM
Post
#162
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Good for him, since he can't act. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 21 2004, 09:46 PM
Post
#163
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Where the hell were you on all the ProHorror/ProHuman rants...er, Threads? And BTW, a young Krik would beat Picard silly. And an old Kirk has both the advantage of weight and his deadly toupe. I think it would be too close to call. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 21 2004, 09:49 PM
Post
#164
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
Picard took out 3 armed klingon assassins in about 3 seconds. Kirk had to fight for about 2 minutes to beat one unarmed one.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 09:52 PM
Post
#165
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Yeah but that Klingon was a "Champion" not like one of the Red Shirts that went on Away Missions and who's last and only line is "Captian, I think I've found som--Arrggggghhhiiii..."
So, how long before one of these things gets locked up? |
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 10:01 PM
Post
#166
|
|||||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
'Twas my point :) ~J |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 21 2004, 10:02 PM
Post
#167
|
|
|
Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Jeezus. However soon, it's not soon enough.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2004, 12:50 AM
Post
#168
|
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Hasta la vista babies...
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2004, 12:53 AM
Post
#169
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Between the electrons Member No.: 465 |
I thought Charcoalgrin was a western dragon, not an eastern one...
Also, I've read the Dragon pdf file things (I don't play ED, by the way) but I don't have it in front of me, but where does it say that Vestrivian dies? Goes nuts, sure, but who says he's dead? |
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2004, 01:18 AM
Post
#170
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 24-November 02 Member No.: 3,638 |
It doesn't. That's from another sourcebook. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to remind us which one, as I'm not sure. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 22 2004, 01:58 AM
Post
#171
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Barsaive at War. Vestrivan flies into a Horror Cloud intent on stopping it, storm stops and shudders for a moment, storm keeps moving. Vestrivan MIA, presumed deceased.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2004, 03:51 AM
Post
#172
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Is that the same Horror Cloud that was fighting over the city you mentioned earloer?
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2004, 01:06 PM
Post
#173
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Which city? When did I mention this?
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2004, 03:37 PM
Post
#174
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Vivane, and it was someone else that mentioned it, but who said what kinda starts to blur after a while. If it has something to do with Earthdawn, it's usually not a bad bet that you might've said it.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2004, 10:27 PM
Post
#175
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Would you care to explain who's that one, please? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 26th December 2024 - 02:24 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.