The Horrors and Death Magic? Answers In Earthdawn, And Who's Really Behind Aztlan-SPOILERS- Options

[Fortune]

[Ancient History]

Yes, the one that swallowed Vestrivan went on to swallow Vivane.

[Kagetenshi]

The one with Admiral Hartmallen himself in it?
Poor Vestrivan.

~J

[L.D]

[Raén]

To continue about Eletheria being the first Vampire, a quote from James Flowers, line developer of Redbrick (Lou Prosperi, and many of the ancients from FASA work there).

"Note: As a related aside, in the ED Companion, p.48 (p.138 in 2nd Edition), there is an example with a vampire, right down to a clove of garlic as a pattern item: there are no vampires in the FASA published sourcebooks. (Even the LRG vampires are simply Horror constructs: ref. p.108, Barsaive in Chaos.) "

[JongWK]

[JongWK]

Dear Shake,

First things first: please, oh pretty please, use shorter paragraphs, a space after you finish each line and the spell-checking function. Also, when making a point, use italics or underline the text instead of SCREAMING LIKE THIS. Your arguments are lost in a sea of reader-unfriendly text.

Second, try to quote the relevant parts of a post, not the entire message. We read those posts once, and we'll go back to them if we need to.

Please take my humble advise and try to use a less offensive and arrogant tone in your posts, as it certainly doesn't help your arguments.

I'd also like to add that you shouldn't skip other people's refutations and requests for canonical references. It looks as if you willingly ignore them because they're right and you don't have evidence. When you do answer them, do not deviate from the point. Be crystal-clear and accurate.

Discussion, my fellow Dumpshocker, is a fine art. Like in negotiations, you don't give or take, you do both. Defend your theories if you have a logical reason to do so, but be prepared to concede when you do not. In other words, don't be a stubborn mule.

That last line also applies to a lot of people out there. ;)

Leave the low-blows to politicians, so don't go personal with Ancient History. Before you mock him yet another time, do know that he has all the SR and ED books available in English, and that his website is an outstanding source of lore for gamers out there like us.


Having said all that, I'd also like to add two or three additional cents.

[toturi]

Still here, and waiting for my requested references. Thanks for asking, Jong-sama. Domo-Arigato.

[252]

Hope you don't mind AH, but I kinda stole this from you.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Euiscerati]

Have you ever been in a bar or at a party and seen two guys bump into each other? Or one spill a drink on the other? They have their pride, they can't just walk away and pretend like nothing happened even though, nothing happened. Oh, no. They get their backs up and start staring at each other. Throw around a few sneers and a couple of insults so the other realizes that they're tough and not to fuck with them. That's usually about as far as it goes since the goal is to prove you're tough, not to fight over stupid shit like that. But one of the guys always has one of those girlfriends, the type that wish that they were a guy. So the two guys stare at each other just long enough so they can walk away without losing any face, but one of the guys girlfriends jumps in out of nowhere and starts talking trash and getting upset and telling her man to 'kick his ass.' Guys just want to walk away and get back to their drinks, but if there's a chick involved and she’s calling for a fight, if the guy doesn't fight and his chick wants him to, he's a bigger pussy than she is. So then she forces him to take a swing and women have once again ruined another fine not for drinking.

Master posted a long but pretty fucking brilliant post about Earthdawn and Horrors and Aztlan. It's funny because AH's first posts are complimentary toward Master's post. But after a few too many people give Master the 'ata boy,' AH gets his back up. Why? Because Earthdawn is HIS turf and he realizes that he’s not getting enough attention and love. It wasn't Master's post was about Earthdawn that upset him because AH's initial replies on the thread are positive as you can see, but it's his ‘girlfriends’ who egg him on. AH doesn't disagree at first, but he has his Earthdawn pride and so he feels he has to stand up and defend his turf because the chicks are watching him but their eyes are starting to wander toward Master. Can’t have the chicks looking at a new man! So then he starts to get angry and dismissive and insulting toward Master's post. Give Master some credit, even once AH started to mumble and challenge him, he was very courteous in re-explaining in his second post. We know that Master isn't afraid of ripping back, something AH perhaps took for granted from Master’s initial polite posts.

Once AH challenged Master and AH didn't back down or apologize, when after all, Master was just minding his own business and not trolling or looking for a fight and it was AH who took it upon himself to challenge, Master decked AH. It's clear that the substance of Master's points became overshadowed by this cock fight that AH started, which is a shame because the points on this thread, forgetting Master and AH's duel, are pretty fucking brilliant. The Great Pattern and Horrible Pattern, the metaphysics and the Horrors and Aztlan is some great shit. Because of the bitches that AH felt he had to impress, he got himself in a fight he didn't want, just look at his initial posts. And couldn’t win, just look at Masters recent posts. So he got a little carried away and then Master laid a couple of haymakers on him and that was it. Master had enough respect for AH to just walk away after the point it became clear that the beatings that AH were taking were getting embarrassing. So Master walked away and AH picked himself up and had enough decency to walk away as well. Guys want to get back to their drinks, this shit doesn’t matter. This kind of strutting and fighting goes on all the time.

But again, it's ALWAYS the bitches who want this to get personal, get out of hand and get ugly. That got ugly enough to obscure a really interesting and unique discussion about Earthdawn and Shadowrun. No matter what you think about Master or AH, it's clear that they both have a high familiarity with Earthdawn. Master's claims to only 'skim' through the books is clearly him being humble and leaving an opening for rational disagreement and not claiming that he knows EVERYTHING about Earthdawn. Master and AH know what each other are talking about, though Master is clearly more calculating in his approach and his claims. No matter how convincing you find Master’s or AH’s arguments, they’re understanding of Earthdawn is on another level that I, and nearly everyone else can’t follow first hand. They were arguing above our understanding, but they understood what the hell they were talking about. They don't have to provide page numbers, etc because they know the fucking material. They know the books, they know Aztlan or Earthdawn Companion or the Blood Wood and they know what each other are referring to when they're talking about those books. This is their chicken fight so of course neither of them are paying attention to the whiney bitches on the sidelines who can’t follow and demand to be let in on their expertise of this dumb game. They're going at it and neither of them uses quotes, they both paraphrase from the books because they both know the books and understand what they say. Though Master used some quotes quite effectively to clock AH a few times. The quotes about Creana and Great Pattern come to mind in his counterattacks to AH's aggression. I’m not an expert like they are, but even I can follow the punches and see who’s laying on the canvas. I obviously follow this board more closely than Master Shake does and so I’m familiar with AH and know that he is knowledgeable about Earthdawn and is pretty reliable. He just got a little carried away, and put his dick in a meat grinder, that’s all.

Why can't chicks ever tell when the fight is over? Master and AH have walked away to get back to their drinks while you're yelling 'fight,' after your man has already gotten his ass handed to him. That's no big deal, stuff happens all the time and you live to fight another day. But the fight is over and you're not doing anyone any good, especially your boyfriend, by trying to restart this. Don't be a whiny bitch and if you want to know the specifics of what Master and AH were referring to, why don't you get those books and do a little research and find out for yourself. They certainly have, and they're under no obligation to give you lessons in Earthdawn or Shadowrun when you can do the work yourself. After watching what they've talked about, I've done some research of my own and I think that Master is right from what I've seen. The metaphysics seem right and Eletheria does seem to be the first vampire and all that stuff about Aztlan seems to fit. I’ve even taken a look at the Parlainth boxed set and the pyramids are uncanny, as well as the sacrifical ‘mural’ on the cover of one of the books which looks just like Aztlan blood sacrifice art. Even Ehren saying about Juan on pg 61 of Aztlan: 'He is a man of great power, mystic power. I would have taken him for one of us, but to all cursory examinations he appears simply human. Inexplicable.' The 'us' he refers to are Immortals like the Elves and dragons, yet he nor Hualpa can pierce his aura and Juan is human as far as anyone knows. Thus, Human Immortal as Master said. Look it up for yourself and stop being such a baby.

'Jungle Cat' is clearly Hualpa and I have no idea how you could conclude otherwise. You have all the major Immortal players present in Aztlan all brought together by Dunkie to discuss the Horrors and the end of the world. There is one rep from Amazonia who clearly is the major power in that country with the most knowledge of Aztlan and its powers. From each power group including independents. 'Big D' is Dunkie, 'Laughing Man' is Harley an indy, Ehren is 'Worsmyth' and represents Tir Tairngire, 'Hecate' is Aina an indy, 'Umsondo' is Mujaji (this is the weakest because almost nothing exists in Shadowrun about Africa or Mujaji but it fits the best but a dark horse candidate for ‘Umsondo’ would be Moleskin, the basically omniscient Dragon behind the Catholic Church who would be pompous like Umsondo is) representing Africa's awakened, Lady of the Court is Lady Brain Deigh from Tir Na Nog. Everything Master says does seem to fit and since he appears to have left the board, I doubt he'll be answering any questions, particularly those designed to start up another fight. He beat up your boy already, why do you want to start another fight? Chill out. But hey, this is just a fucking game anyway.

It would be a shame if this thread faded away because of some stupid, bitch induced cock fight for Alpha Nerd of the board scared people away. Master's posts were awesome and even AH's replies were interesting. This is a really high quality thread and the discussion about Earthdawn Metaphysics and Horrors and Aztlan should continue, this time without fights, or jerks trying to start new fights.

[252]

It doesn't have to be Hualpa(Did I spell that right) anyways Lugh Surehand is not a poster(Makes you wonder.) This jungle cat could just be one of the high powers in Amozonia, I have never had many people say that this Jungle Cat was a Dragon. On the other side, I will openly admit that this can't be Hualpa or any other dragon for that matter. I just don't know, cat and dragon don't seem to go together and ussually there is some inkling of truth in the name.

Laughing Man, clowns laugh and Harlequins are a type of clown.

Wordsmyth, to me it means a writer, perhaps a good writter. Ehran the Scribe I believe has won a few awards for his books he has written.

Big D, a name that is long with a D in it, or a person who is big and has a D in it. Dunkelzahn fits both in some ways.

Orange Queen, has to do with a jingle that makes you get the name.

Hopefully you see where I'm going. But I need not be write.

[Siege]

I'd be more impressed if they didn't have to swap out names to support themselves in an argument.

-Siege

[Ancient History]

In my defense, Euiscerati, I did apologize for my initial posts being overly-critical...but Master Shake was never polite in reply.

[JongWK]

[annachie]

[Playing Games]

I always thought HMHVV,was an awakened/mutated form of AIDS.

[Trickster]

All very interesting stuff...I admit to not reading T:AL or Parlainth yet [being a player can suck a bit - only just ran through brainscan and currently involved with some Immortal rose BS in our ED campaign - respective GMs are limiting access to "future" SBs for obvious reasons] but I have to say I'm pretty much behind MS on this one. The ideas are well thought out and argued, and fit the facts as far as I'm aware anyway.

On Obsidimen/T'skrang/windlings - well I prefer to think that they are perhaps "awakened" from races other than human, which the other name-giver races all seem to be derived from. Obsidemen went back to their liferocks and start hibernating again or else die and just become big rocks wherever they happen to fall down, perhaps an in-game alternative explanation for moraine deposits from glaciers? When magic reaches a certain point obsidimen will re-emerge. T'skrang - awakened intelligent lizards, anyone? Just haven't seen them yet. Remember we're only 50 years into a 4000 year cycle, and whilst I accept magic may be on a sharper gradient this time around, remember the spikes are only in certain locations [eg. GGD]. As for Mike Mulvihill's assertion that they all just "died". Well that's a pretty lame statement, to be expected from a man who was quite determined to kill off the ED/SR links. No real effort or thought went into that particular gem. And also as it's never been written in a sourcebook, and MM has subsequently lost responsibility for developing SR, let's hope it's not accurate either.

So onto other questions I have regarding ED/SR:

What was Harlequin up to in the 4th age? I gather he was involved with the lightbearers, and imagine he was opposed to both Thera and Blood Wood, come to think of it probably opposed to every ED conspiracy/power broker I can think of. Was he even in Barsaive? What accomplishments of note did he achieve? For that matter, what about Ehran?

Maybe Juan Atzcapotzalco is the dragon behind Aztechnology? Would explain why two extraordinarily powerful mages would fail in assessensing him. Though I admit aura intersection would perhaps be the fly in this particular theory's ointment. Dunkelzahn being behind the Azzies is about the most ludicrous thing I can conceive. I'm not going to get too into it, but basing this on the fact that he had some shares [even enough to get a seat on the board] is just a little too far-fetched. From this we can also conclude that he must also be behind Renraku. Yes? And Ares? All of them? Involved perhaps, to one extent or another. In charge of? No. It's perfectly conceivable that an inordinately wealthy individual, particularly one who likes to have a finger in every pie, would have interests in these companies. Along with a few other guys just like him - Ryumyo, Lofwyr for a start. Is there anything in Dunkelzahn's background that suggests he may be a horror marked/corrupted great dragon, who is determined to get the boys back in town as quickly as possible? If there is I'd genuinely love to hear it, honestly, but it'll need to be good to convince me.

On Juan, my particular favourite is the idea that he is, as it says in the book, after all just a puppet. Other spellcasters [eg. a corrupted dragon, Oscuro, or the Bloodmage Gestalt] may use some advanced metamagic form of masking to make him look incredibly powerful to the likes of Ehran and Hualpa, or perhaps this powerful aura is just a side-effect of the masking being used to stop him being read for truth/lies/emotion etc, or alternatively, he is possessed by some incredibly powerful free [blood] spirit [perhaps even a horror], confusing the readings of the above-mentioned.

Anyone up for throwing the Black Lodge/Denairastas Clan links football around? A shadowy immortal human spellcaster leading a group with links all the way back through history eg. the Knights-Templar. I'm sold!! I admit to being no expert on Denairastas but, my gut tells me this stands a fair chance of someone else [i.e. AH or MS] being able to prove it or convince me who else it could be.

Anyone read Ragnarok? What happens to Winternight in there? I assume from the title that they're involved.

I have some more questions, I'm sure, but it's 2am and I'm off to bed to prepare for an extended SR fuck-fest tomorrow. We just tried to screw over CAT, by revealing their shady attempt to hire us to run on an Ares secure compound to our Ares Johnson contact, but it seems the whole thing seems a bit to sensitive for even our johnson to know about. Just found him with a smoking hole in his head, with about 200 kg of fuel-air rigged to go off any second now right next to him. To make matters worse a fleet of Ares marked Citymasters just pulled up outside and I'm sure I can hear the distinctive whine of a guardian drone or ten warming up. And if we escape we'll have a bunch of Seraphim to deal with, no doubt peeved at our pathetic attempts to slip one in their ass. Should be fun.

[edited for spelling and clarity]

[Phaeton]

My honest-to-gosh serious two :nuyen:.

Aztlan?...Pfft. Small problem. It's YAMATETSU behind all this. I insist.

[annachie]

[Siege]

I don't think the T'skrang are big enough (cool enough) to actually hibernate during the downturn in mana cycles.

By comparison, Dunkle makes a claim of being thousands of years old.

-Siege

[Euiscerati]

Page 130 of Aztlan:

'...or a fragging Awakened Jaguar looking for lunch.'

Hecate- What is an Awakened Jaguar?
Jungle Cat- That would be me.
Laughing Man - <chuckle>
UMSONDO- And he is hardly alone
Laughing man- Ah, our leonine friends. Perhaps I should take a closer interest in such matters.
UMSONDO- Perhaps you should.

Jungle Cat is clearly making a joke which is why Harlequin laughs. They're referring to a post about the dangers of the southern Amazonian border. What our 'leonine friends' refers to is mysterious though it's clear from the tone that's it's probably meant tongue-in-cheek because it begins with a joke. Unless Umsondo is a magical lion and Jungle Cat is a magical jaguar which doesn't make any sense. Dunkelzahn is bringing together the heavy hitters to discuss the dangers of the Horrors and Aztlan. He's brought top players from various groups, so why would he invite some shape shifters to share these dark secrets? Jungle Cat is clearly high in the structure of Amazonia. Hualpa is the head of Amazonia and so it makes sense that when bringing together Amazonia, that Dunkie would invite Hualpa. Why would he invite someone lesser and not Hualpa? Iit makes sense that it would be Hualpa.

On page 172, Laughing Man mentions 'the Compact! ?The Grand Deal! The "If We Don't Stop Yelling At Each Other We'll All Be Dead" Agreement!' Then Jungle Cat Says 'I never signed it.' Then UMSONDO says 'Nor did I.' Then Harlequin says 'No one ever needed you to, Watcher (UMSONDO).' This is in response to Hecate (Aina) getting bitchy and calling the worriers cowards and Jungle cat gets all upset at Hecate and says 'Bitch, she has no right to be speaking with us.' 'Us?' Clearly this is an elite group of immortals who're all aware of the Horrors from before and agreed to fight them, though Jungle Cat and UMSONDO didn't sign but are outsiders. Perhaps because the 'Compact' was Barsaive regional and UMSONDO and Jungle Cat were elsewhere. It's clear that these players are all equals, they're not just some shape shifter who changed and found themselves in the highest circles of dark secrets.

On page 12 of Aztlan Jungle Cat whines about being 'forever surrounded by juveniles' in regards to Hecate and Lady of the Court bitching to each other. He's an old power who's clearly at the top of Amazonia and he knows about the Amazonian Locus and mentions their rituals not being those Great Rituals (forbidden? dangerous?) on page 114. He knows about the Blood Magic Amazonians are using to fuel their nation and the ancient rituals and gets upset when Laughing Man takes a shot of his use of blood magic on page 23:
JC- ...we do not carve the hearts out of our brethren to power our arts.
LM- Much...
JC- Not funny.

Clearly the equal of Ehren, Harlequin, Dunkelzahn, et al. Nobody takes shots at him for his being young or unworthy of the company the way Hecate does at Lady of the Court at the very beginning of the discussion. At the top of Amazonia, familiar with the blood magic they use, hates Aztlan, is important enough that Dunkelzahn wants his help. Sounds like Hualpa to me, that was always my impression when reading it.

UMSONDO is more difficult to place. 'It' is clearly a taciturn Immortal worthy of respect and the company who speaks with zen-like simplicity and 'wisdom.' 'It' is called the 'Watcher' because clearly this is an ancient, wise observer, not an active participant in all this jazz like Dunkelzahn or Harelquin are. Maybe UMSONDO and Jungle Cat aren't dragons, but if not they must be Immortal Elves but I'm not aware of any specifics on who they could be. UMSONDO is the most mysterious because there isn't a clear connection but hints of Africa. FASA really hasn't gone out of their way to develop this since JC or UMSONDO appear in no other Shadowrun books as far as I know. Lady Brain Deigh being Lady of the Court makes sense because she is young and unworthy which is why Hecate goes after her, but she is the head of a powerful IE nation. Hecate being Aina also makes sense because of her Horror confections and apathy and Dunkelzahn goes out of his way to reach out to her in his will. So it would make sense that she is Hecate, whom Dunkelzahn reaches out to in Aztlan and she is arrogant and dismissive and needs the hope he offers her in his will. Ehren being Worsmyth seems obvious to all, same with Big D and Laughing Man. I think that's all. Hey, I for one love the Horrors stuff in Shadowrun, it really fleshes out the game and gives it a deep, dark background. I wish there was more stuff like the secret conclave in 'Aztlan.' But since the FASA and now FanPro folks don't seem to agree with me, I think these will remain mysteries.

[kevyn668]

I don't even know what you guys are talking about anymore....so, Go Humans!

And a hearty "Good Job" to all involved. I like Shake's theories, but I can't refute AH's.

More importantly, I see no evidence that "whats-her-nuts" was the first vampire...

[Trickster]

[annachie]

@Trickster. For some reason I was under the impression that the T'skrang considered the elves to be nice eating, which would be reason enough in my book.

@Euiscerati. You may be making assumptions that "leonine friends" is refering to cat like friends in some manner, and whilst this could be true I should point out that it could be a coruption on "leonine partnership", which is: one in which partner bears losses but receives no profits

The other assumption is that all the dragons could get net access, thus whilst Hualpa could be Jungle Cat, it is just as likely that Jungle Cat is a servant/voice of Hualpa accessing the net on Hualpa's behalf, and if a "jaguar shapeshifter/awakened Jaguar/Jaguar shaman" would meet just about every hint I know of, including Laughing Man's comment.


@kevyn668. I think you're right about "whats-her-nuts". There's one key piece missing that I feel sure would be in any vampire legends, and that is the dead should rise. In fact the only vampire story I can think of it missing from is Vlad the impaler himself. (Which isn't even a real vampire story)