The Horrors and Death Magic? Answers In Earthdawn, And Who's Really Behind Aztlan-SPOILERS- Options

[Pthgar]

[Bearclaw]

[Kagetenshi]

Because there's no point. Either they can't use them (gnashers, dread iotas, etc.) or they have absolutely no reason to use them because they don't feed off of that (Tempter, Chantrel's Horror, basically any big-name Horror). The only Horror that I can think of that would consider it (and actually would do it) is Hunter of Hunters.

~J

Edit: and yes, I know that the Dragons won't be safe in their lairs. My point is just that tech can still be an edge for humanity.

[Bearclaw]

And my point is that because of tech, humanity and everything else face a bigger danger this time.

[Kagetenshi]

And my point is that they don't, with the exception of the fact that Water is now easier to corrupt.

~J

[Ancient History]

[Bearclaw]

Getting awfully personal, aren't you?

[Req]

[Kagetenshi]

Historians will do that.

~J

[Ancient History]

Sorry, just got back from class.

I'd like to note that while I'm completely bashing parts of this for ignorance or WTF?-factor, there are some good ideas here! Really!

[Reaver]

[Shanshu Freeman]

[gknoy]

[Shev]

Ok, I'll bite: what scene?

[mfb]

imoan watts and some other chick getting smoochy.

[Jason Farlander]

[BitBasher]

"Naomi is i moan spelled backwards" is a line from VanWilder. :D

[Shockwave_IIc]

(To be said in a milla jovovich/ Fifth Element style)

Wow!


Outstanding. Very good post there Mr Shake.
My knowledge of the meta plot is very limited. But you seemed to have made some interesting conclusions (as well as far fetched)

[Master Shake]

I must apologize for not being quite as thorough as I thought I was. I was merely pointing out some horror references from Earthdawn in response to one of the longest threads I've seen on any message board. I'm not interested in being an active posting member of this board, I just thought I'd share some Earthdawn info because I'm impressed with the E/S world and it seems like the discussion was missing the E answers to the Horrors and Scourge. In retrospect, I could have added a few more thoughts to more fully flesh out my original post. I realize that I bit off a large chunk which seems to have confused some so consider this an appendix to my original post.

On Horrors:
1- I merely quoted what was written in the Adepts Way. Where a Nethermancer specifically states that the horrors can be theoretically stopped if 8, unspecified questions are answered. Nothing too complex here.

2- Black Madonna is about Leonardo financing his 'Great Work.' Great work is mentioned time and again but is never specified. The Theran Empire book is poorly written and unimaginative and the Creanan pantheon is a nearly god for god copy of ancient Egyptian. The Creana section of the book opens with the Creanan creation myth which overtly parallels the Egyptian myths and Ureth is clearly Isis while Tabru is Osiris, her slain husband who is murdered by Malek or Seth who goes off to be the haunt of the desert, the dry, parched land what means the death to the river and to civilization. It doesn't take a detective to see the connection, just a basic understanding of Egyptian mythology because the Theran Empire book lacks subtly and is the least original of a sourcebook you'll ever find for a fantasy game. So yes, it is quite clear that Ureth is Isis, and that the Immortal Elf Leonardo served Ureth, as a Questor perhaps, in the earlier age. And 'Great Work' that Leonardo is so obsessed about happens to also be the ultimate goal of the Creanan/Egyptian pantheon. So Leonardo, an immortal and follower of Isis/Ureth where 'Great Work' was the ultimate religious quest, starts talking vaguely about 'great work' and we're supposed to think that it's something totally different? This seems obvious to me, perhaps I'm missing something. In reference to the Great Work, by building magically patterned monuments, the true patterns of heaven and earth can be made one and the cycle of death and rebirth will end. I paraphrased from the section entitled 'On the Great Work.' A specific quote would be: 'When the Great Work is completed, the burning sands of Amez-Chelk will change to a paradise like the Lands of the West. The need for the cycle of death and rebirth will disappear and the heavens and earth will be as one. All striving, all suffering and all fear will depart from this world. All realms will join the pyramid of Name-givers and the outlanders will spend eternity to happy service to the Creanan-born.' Rebirth or reincarnation is what is stated along with the promise that Creanan and the world can be permanently severed from pain and suffering and that would include the Horrors as well. I fail to see where misunderstandings could arise here.

3-The Great Pattern is mysterious. FASA never likes to come out and be obvious, but saying that it's most likely the True Pattern of the World is more than a big hint. The metaphysics of the E/S Mythos are never explained, at least I've never seen it laid out. It's clear that Horrors represent a force of elemental exploitation and sterilizing parasites that don't produce, only consume. While Horrors are dealt with individually, in E, everything has a True Pattern, even groups which means that behind individual Horrors is a kind of Horrible Pattern, a True Pattern of the Horrors even though that is never stated anywhere specifically. Perhaps quotes will help: '...because the Lightbearers strive to reclaim the world from the Scourge, the world itself grants them power through its True Pattern.' Later other theories for the Great Pattern are given but the text itself doubts those could be true. So we have the Great Pattern being directly opposed to the Horrors which is why the powers the Great Pattern offers deal with healing and countering Horrors. The True Pattern of the world which contains its creatures and metahumans is about the exact opposite to the Horrible Pattern. When the Horrors can, they attack and corrupt and cause pain to the Great Pattern and the Great Pattern fights back. Now, I didn't write any of this stuff, but it's pretty clear that this would constitute some metaphysics, the light dark, yin yang, great possibility and corruption, freedom and slavery. FASA doesn't like to come out and say it directly, but it's clear that the Great Pattern and the Horrible Pattern are as close to a polar opposite metaphysics as E/S has. In light of the lost 8 questions and the 'Great Work,' we can use this metaphysical understanding of the E/S Mythos and have a better understanding of what would go on in the internal reality of the game world.

The Great Pattern, or the True Pattern of the world contains the life and energy of the world. Not good or evil since the world is filled with violence and karma, the metaphysical magical quanta of the E/S Mythos isn't about being good, but about being active. Gain Karma even if, or because of, breaking into a lab and murdering innocent minimum wage sec guards who just want to provide food for their family and survive. So the Great Pattern is about the often violent growth and exchange and freedom. While the Horrors are about tyranny (in Har's Back, the futuristic Horror-world is dominated by an absolute dictator in Oscuro) and pain (almost all the named horrors in E) and consuming, not producing. In the tyrannies of the sterile corp world, magic can be warped or corrupted by the lack of energy and vision as places in the Great Pattern wear thin. Growth, freedom, explosion, energy are the 'values' of the Great Pattern. You see this in the E Passions or gods where the normal passions are expressions of freedom, energy, life, etc. While those Passions that were corrupted by Horrors like Dis went from being Passion of order and efficiency to slavery, confusion and sterile bureaucracy. It's clear when you look at the E/S Mythos as a whole what the fundamental metaphysics of this fictional world are.

Horrors represent stagnation and corruption and the restriction of the Great Pattern. Theoretically it is possible to bring the Great Pattern and the Pattern of the Lands of the West or some archtypal paradise/heaven together, transcending any such conflicts with Horrors. By bringing the two patterns together and in effect, Re-Naming the world/universe to separate from the Horrible Pattern entirely. Horrors cannot be killed off, they can only be shut off, their reality forever closed to the Great Pattern. If they come, according to Harle and Dunk, they will be unstoppable. Can't fight with guns, no matter how good they might be.

4-Permanent suffering doesn't sound like a great idea. If you can read the Blood Wood and not be convinced that the elf woman who is is described as having all the attributes of a vampire/HMHVV and not be convinced, then what can I say? She's strong, drinks blood, operates at night, etc. and was a blood magic expert. If HMHVV is not akin to blood magic, even down to the de-pattern which occurs with extreme blood magic, plus the blood drinking of vampires (though FASA is kind of vague on how Banshee's feed) or flesh eating of Wendigos, then what is it? I think you're making this too hard, FASA throws out the clues and you're supposed to put them together. Did it ever say that 'Big D' was in fact Dunk? Or that Wordsmythe is Ehren? Or that Alachia is back on the scene in Tir Tairngire? Just a little detective work, nothing overt but the clues seems pretty obvious and they make sense. I don’t need a signed confession and each will view this uniquely.

Speaking of detective work, on Aztlan:

1-Look at the cover of the Parlainth Boxed set, that is clearly Teotihuacan. The artists took the look of the art and architecture directly from that real ancient city. The step pyramids that are supposedly in a 'unique Theran style' could be put on Mexican money because they so closely copy the real pyramids. It's clear that the art and architecture is clearly central American, while nothing looks like that in Russua. The other cities in Barsaive are less interesting artisitically, their look is kind of vague but Parlainth is clearly a Central American city and was specifically designed to look that way. There was a reason, not even the Theran Empire book contains any art or cities that are central American, just Parlainth. We know that the city moves, we also know that the ancient mystery city of Teotihuacan was abandoned by those who first found it and built upon its ruins according to T:AL. Parlainth, a distinctly C American city exists in Russia but it has a tendency to be there and not be there and it isn't there now. We also have a mystery city, which looks exactly like Parlainth for a reason in C America. Hmmm. We know from the Parlainth book that Horrors conquered the city and produced grotesque works of art featuring themselves and bloody sacrifices which look exactly like the Aztec and Mayan art depicting Monsters and murderous sacrifices. Teotihuacan is the Azzies most sacred site that they give it great respect and stay away from it. Certainly if Teotihuacan is Parlainth would explain the mysterious origins of the city in C America that T:AL specific mentions being mysterious and found abandoned (magic dropped, Horrors couldn't stick around but left behind some of their secrets about blood and death magic for the Azzies to find) plus its absence and lack of similar artwork and architecture in Russia. Would also explain some of the secret magics the Azzies practice with no discernable source that only IE's and Dragons know and can practice. Perhaps most obviously, that direct knowledge from a lost city from a previous age is what gave the Mayans the understanding of when the 6th world would begin. Gave the Aztecs knowledge of the tzitzimine (horrors) that return every few thousand years to destroy the world. The scourge happened all over, so why is it that the Mayans know when the 6th age would start and nobody else does? Mayans have 2012 on their calender as the end of the age but no other cultures make such claims. The Azzies and Mayans even know how many ages there have been, how many times the horrors have come while again, no other cultures around the world have such knowledge. Did the Ancient Greeks have 2012 on a mystical calender? Nope, and Thera was right off shore. How about the Hindus or Sumerians or Europeans? Not even the Egyptians, for all their mysticism managed to hold onto lore about Horrors and the cycles of magic, but one small region of the world did. It's clear that the S Mythos was built around Mayan/Aztec mythologies because they are given special credence above all other mythologies. The S creators used the Mayan calender and Aztec ages and demons to flesh out their world. What's the explanation for how these people in this small region could have this powerful understanding of the true world while this knowledge was forgotten or stamped out all over the rest of the globe? A secret city of mysterious origins that the IE's and Dragons forgot about, but the locals found the city and saw its art and architecture and blood sacrifices and learned about horrors and the cycles of magic. It's impossible that the art and architecture of C America would, just by chance, be reproduced exactly in Russia. What the FASA guys are saying is that Parlainth once again moved, but this time it ended up in Mexico. If a Central American city in Russia that no longer exists in Russia doesn't seem strange to you, then what can I say?

2- There is a dragon behind Aztechnology because that's the persistent rumor. In Aztlan, a Large corrupted Eastern Dragon is spotted landing on the main Aztec Pyramid and going inside. Plus all the connections between Horrors and Aztlan are undeniable. Teotihuacan is sacred to Azzies, they don't pollute it with their rites but leave the power alone. That isn't like them. They won't even allow summoning near Teotihuacan because they fear what could be summoned, and most likely corrupted by the powerful site. Why would the Azzies not exploit the most powerful sacred spot in their region? Because Teotihuacan is reserved for someone special. Charcoalgrin was the master of Parlainth she was th eone who had the ritual to make the city move. It is clear to me that Parlainth is Teotihuacan which means Charcoalgrin is the Dragon behind Aztlan. It could be some totally unnamed Dragon of course, but I'm just going by what clues I see and this is what I conclude.

In Dragons, Charcoalgrin is described as insane but in Parlainth boxed set the GM is given two options for Charcoalgrin. 1 is that Charcoalgrin is just an eccentric old wyrm, the second option, and more interesting, is that Charcoalgrin was '...corrupted during the scourge, aims to carry on the destructive campaign of the Horrors.' Which explains why she uses sadistic criminals and killers and thugs who torment those they catch as her pawns and they gradually become more corrupted the longer they are her 'unforgivables.' So clearly there is a hint of Charcoalgrin being corrupt and serving her master, some powerful Horror, perhaps Verjigorm who targets Dragons especially and is the King of Horrors. She is the one who wanted to remove Parlainth back to its Astral pocket to find Erypimese and since there is no record of a Central American city in Russia, she must have succeeded.

3-Juan as Erypimese makes sense following the previous two points. He is a powerful, immortal human mage, capable of feats of powers that are exclusive to Dragons since Charcoalgrin taught him her secret lore. The only other possible human immortal would be Uhl Denairastas but he would never be a front man like Juan. Erypimese would do anything Charcoalgrin wanted and that fits him being a powerful mage that can confuse IE's and Dragons, but still be apublic figure because he's serving his mistress Charcoalgrin. It's clear from what Hualpa and Ehren say, that Juan is a human, as powerful or more powerful than themselves-clearly an immortal and clearly human. It's possible that Parlainth, Charcoalgrin and Erypimese are just coincidences and they have no connection to Aztlan. But knowing the way FASA works, and seeing that they think it's important to feature Parlainths art and architecture, Charcoalgrin and Erypimese's relationship and their connection to a moving city was made part of the game world for a reason. These aren’t obscure secondary references, Parlainth, Chasrcoalgrin and Erypimese are important aspects of Earthdawn, so why are they? ‘Just because?’ What I explained answers many questions and uses pre-existing and known E/S characters and facts. If this isn't what Mike Mulvahill and his lot intended, it's one hell of a coincidence.

I hope I have cleared up your confusions of my original post.

[northern lights]

[Ancient History]

David Dankel does still post on occaison.

Shake: Better! But I still feel you're wrong about the vampire-chick and really wrong about Teotihuacan. I mean, your basic argument is that Parlainth has pyramids therefore it must have been transported across the Atlantic to Central America. Has it perhaps not occurred that Creana has pyramids that could have proved the inspiration for Parlainth's?

[Reaver]

[Pthgar]

Don't forget that at the Destruction of Thera at the end of the Fouth World, the Theran's spread out all over the globe (ref Threats, Atlantean Conspiracy). Even alowing for Lone Gunman's tendency to jump to conclusions, I think this is likely.

If the mana levels were getting low, perhaps the desperate refugee Therans used death magic to help them gain some power in Central America, thus starting the sacrifice tradition as well as bringing the Parlainth architectural style which was considered berfore the Scourge to be very swanky by the Theran's (ref Parlainth Box Set).

[Senor 187]

Either the Aztlaners are genetically predisposed to evil because they are Hispanic, or they are more easily corrupted by the Horrors for the same reason. See one of the ur-texts of Shadowrun, the Lord of the Rings. "Swarthy"=evil. The fantasy genre is fundamentally racist, Shadowrun can not escape this.

[kevyn668]

A little sensetive, aren't we Mr. CopKiller??