 The Horrors and Death Magic? Answers In Earthdawn, And Who's Really Behind Aztlan-SPOILERS- |
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 Jan 15 2004, 05:50 PM
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#51
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818  |
I fail to see how Lord of the Rings is racist.
The Southrons are from the south, near the equator. Hence, they will be darker skinned then the northern peoples. And Tolkien even questions if they are really evil, just not conscripted. The only ones that are really evil are the Corsairs of Umbar. I would also like to call your attention to the fact that all the Ringwraiths were probably whites. Understand what your talking about, Senor. |
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Jan 15 2004, 05:52 PM
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#52
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Oh yes, because the man whose novel was never published in [edit: Third Reich] Germany because he refused on principle to sign a document certifying that he had no Jewish ancestry even though there's absolutely no evidence that he had any such ancestry is so racist. :please:
British Supremacist, yes. Racist, I think not. ~J |
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Jan 15 2004, 07:09 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
I almost feel bad for someone attacking Tolkein around here...
Duck and cover. |
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Jan 15 2004, 07:32 PM
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#54
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Just like that goddamn petition to force New Line (or whoever produced the movies) to change the name of LoTR - The Two Towers, because it was clearly an attempt to capitalize on September 11th.
Everyone who signed that should be caned. |
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Jan 15 2004, 07:35 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
Everyone who signed that should be shot in order to remove thier stupidity from the gene pool. ;) |
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Jan 15 2004, 07:48 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
I've always found the Lord Of The Rings - September 11th links amusing, given that the heroes of LotR are a small group of underfed, underfunded, outgunned rebels with a small secret weapon. They engage in guerilla tactics, follow a cryptic benefactor who seems to be everywhere at once and persevere because they believe their cause is righteous.
Meanwhile, their opponent is a technologically-minded, heavily mechanized military force of vastly superior numbers which operates out of two towers--towers which ultimately fall not because they're razed by an invading army, but rather because of the aforementioned small secret weapon. Granted, any parallels are anachronistic, self-serving and ultimately amount to intellectual wankery, but it killed ten minutes. :) |
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Jan 15 2004, 07:51 PM
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#57
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Didn't the two towers refer to Barad-Dur and Minas Tirith rather than Barad-Dur and Minas Morgul?
Hm. Or come to think of it, was Orthanc one of them? Aiee! I'm getting confused! ~J |
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Jan 15 2004, 07:58 PM
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#58
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Yup, it's Barad-Dur and Minas Tirith. When Faramir captures Frodo in the book, he says something along the lines of "None are in this land save by the grace of one of the Two Towers, and you don't look like a servant of the White Tower." Or something like that.
But this gets debated ad nauseum by hardcore LoTR fans. |
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Jan 15 2004, 08:51 PM
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#59
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Target Group: Members Posts: 69 Joined: 8-July 02 Member No.: 2,947 |
According to the Ballantine Books printing of Fellowship of the Ring:
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Jan 15 2004, 09:22 PM
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#60
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I always thought the Two Towers were Barad-dur and Orthanc. NOT Minas-Tirith (Home to the ruling seat of Gondor) or Minas Morgul (Home to the Witch-King of the Nazgul).
Ya know, because Saruman says "....now there is a union between the two towers of Isengard and Mordor..." emphasis mine. This post has been edited by kevyn668: Jan 15 2004, 09:24 PM |
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Jan 15 2004, 09:51 PM
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#61
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Right, Saruman says that in the movies. Does he say that in the books? I don't think so, but then I don't remember.
You can't judge that much from the movies' dialogue, really. |
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Jan 15 2004, 11:34 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 24-November 02 Member No.: 3,638 |
Tolkein said in an interview that which two towers it is is deliberately vague. Hell, he didn't even want to have to split up the story into three volumes, and hated the title for the third one (spoilers in the title!).
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Jan 16 2004, 12:48 AM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,948 |
Getting the thread back on topic.
Ancient History, I think you are tying to simplify Shake's theory a bit too much. Shake's argument is more then Teotihuacán and Parlainth both have pyramids. One of Shake's argument revolved around the pyramids and that the images of the architecture presented in the Parlainth boxed set (which Shakes adds is the only Earthdawn sourcebook that has many images of the local architecture at all) look very much like the sorts of pictures you would see in a typical, real life, travel brochure for Teotihuacán. Even through I have not had the chance to read the Parlainth boxed set, what I have seen of Parlainth (notably the color plates in the 1st Ed sourcebook) reminded me very much of Central American architecture as well, and this was before I knew of the Earthdawn/Shadowrun connection. Yes, pyramids do occur throughout the world (not just Egypt and Central America). However, the style of the pyramids in the Americas (including how they were built) is very distinct. I doubt many would confuse the pyramids in Central America with those of Egypt, India, South East Asia, or Samaria and Babylonia (though Sumerian and Babylonian might be the most similar). But the pyramids are not the only thing Shake is basing his theory on. To sum up, this is what I read in the posts: 1) No lost city or ruins even remotely similar to Parlainth have been found in Russia let alone any in that area. Thus Parlainth must have moved sometime between the time frame Earthdawn takes place, and the recorded history of the region in the 5th age. 2) Target: Awakened Lands (a book I have not yet read either, so I am going by what Shake has written) states that Teotihuacán was found whole and abandoned by the early Aztecs. I do not know if this matches real life legend, but I think I remember hearing something similar. Teotihuacán is the only city explicitly stated in any Shadorun sources books thus far said to have been found whole and intact by its initial inhabitants. Parlainth is known to have moved once before and, as of the Eathdawn timeframe, still pretty much abandoned. Again, since there are no records of the city or city like it existing in that area, it must have either been raised to the ground or moved. 3) The Aztecs practice a form of blood and death magic that should not be known by anyone else in the 5th or 6th worlds. In addition, the Aztecs of the 6th world are supposed to be performing certain forms of draconic magic that is very beneficial to the Horrors. The question arises of how they got that information (Of course I could get all Joseph Campbell and explain how animal and human sacrifice appears in all early agricultural religions and that those of the Aztecs are just another variation on that theme, but that might be injecting a bit too much reality and sensibility into the Shadowrun world). 4) Parlainth employed magic to both transport itself and cause all memories and records of its existence to disappear. There have been no mentions of its existence by the Dragons or Immortal Elves of the 6th world, even it had reappeared in by the time Earthdawn takes place. A possible indication that the movement and transportation magic that was used once before had been used again? Admittedly this argument is pretty flimsy, since the Dragons and Immortal Elves have not talked about everything yet, but you would think a city with as much centering around it as Parlainth would have at least gotten some sort of footnote by now. 5) Unknown (possibly corrupted) Dragon or Immortal Elf in charge of Aztlan. Chasrcoalgrin (a possibly corrupted) Dragon who resided in Parlainth. By itself this would be pretty think evidence, but it does not stand by itself. 6) Juan Atzcapotzalco, a powerful and immortal mage with mysterious origins being kept around and preserved by Aztecnology for some reason. Erypimese, a powerful and immortal mage who disappeared during the Scourge being sough out by Chasrcoalgrin. Ancient History, I do not see what your issues are with the theory that Shake puts forth or any evidence against it, and in all honesty, I do not see your statements so far on this subjecting being particularly objective. The only things I have seen say at this point about Shake's theory is "it is not what happened", that the theory is completely unfounded, even though Shake has presented what cannon sources are being used, and that Shake is "really wrong about Teotihuacan" without actually supplying any solid reasoning why you feel this way nor references that counter the theory. The most you have supplied for your reasoning for why you are against what Shake proposed happened to Parlainth or where Teotihuacán came from is that it has not been in any sourcebook. This is a pretty weak argument, in my option. I think there are other commonly accepted theories about certain Earthdawn/Shadowrun connections that have not yet been positively conformed, such as Thera being Altantis (I could be wrong about this, since I have not read all the Shadowrun Sourcebooks, since so many are now out of print). Lack of an acknowledged personality coming out and stating this is or is not so is not enough. That would be like saying the ruins at Hisarlik, Canakkale cannot be the ruins of the City of Troy since there is no big wooden horse there or a sign that says "Welcome to Troy". As far as I can tell, Shake is not suggesting that Parlainth only recently moved to Central Mexico or that it was built Cental Mexico and then went to Creana and then moved back, but that it moved from the Barsaive/Creana/ Ukraine, where it was founded and built, sometime time at the end of the 4th Age or beginning of the 5th. This would have been about 1,000 BCE, if the Ages are 3,000 years, or earlier, if the move occurred before the end of the 4th Age. This would have predated the rise of the Maya, whose civilization flourished from around 250 CE till about 900 CE, about 400 years before the Aztec settled Teotihuacán. Thus putting to bed your statement that blood magic was being practiced in Central and South America before the time frame Shake is suggesting, since there were no civilizations there to be practicing it, unless you are saying the Dragons PDF and the Vivane Boxed set are suggesting there were civilizations that predate Maya in that region. After Parlainth moved, it could have influenced the architecture and magical practices of Mexico, the Yucatan Peninsula, and Central and South America. Yes, the architecture of Parlainth could likely be Theran, which would have also gone one to influence Sumerian and Babylonian architecture in the 5th world if that were the case, but it is just as likely that Parlainth had its own distinct style as well. Boston, New York, and Washington, DC, are all East Coast cities, founded close to each other in terms of location, founding culture, and time frame, yet each of those still very unique. Just look at the differences between Rome, which has a more natural city growth, and those cities founded by the Roman Empire, which were planed out, or even the differences between the cities themselves. To say that Parlainth's architecture must completely mimic that of Thera's would be, in my opinion, ridiculous in the extreme, given the distances between the two, the dates of the two cities founding, and the differences in materials used or indigenous cultures of the regions, just to name a few factors.
That might be an idea, but how about this and would make a little more sense considering the rise of the Mayans before the Aztecs, but how about this for an idea: Sometime before the end of the 4th Age Parlainth again disappears and ends up in Central Mexico, there to languish abandoned and forgotten. End of the 4th Age/Beginning of the 5th, the City of Thera, falls, spawning the legend of Atlantis. Survivors scatter to the four winds, some settling in Egypt and the Middle East. Other travel further west, across the Atlantic, eventually finding their way to the Yucatan. There they found the Mayan Civilization. Or, and I think more likely scenario, Sages (or Loremasters?) headed out near the end of the 4th Age to set up a site where the knowledge of the 4th age could kept for safe keeping. Their descendants would eventually become the Maya (considering we have a good 1,000 years between the end of the 4th age and the rise of the Maya). After the collapse of the Mayan civilization, the remains of the city of Parlainth were discovered, became Teotihuacán, and the Aztecs rose to power in the region. Just my 2 cents sable As a side note, I think I remember watching on a TLC special the layout of the pyramids in Teotihuacán (I think that was Teotihuacán) happen to be aligned to exactly mimic, on the ground, constellation layout that occurs once every 12 thousand years or so. It is also one of the handful of sites around the world which have share this layout. To up the weirdness factor even further, the stellar alignment in question is supposed to occur sometime around 2012. If this were so then it would marking the beginning of the 2nd (Age of Dragons) and 6th (Age of Humans(?)) ages. |
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Jan 16 2004, 01:44 AM
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#64
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Okay, point by point:
Parlainth is a mish-mash of architectural styles, and it would be ridiculous to try and count what was derived from which culture. Let's just say until I see maps of Teotihuacan that match the ones in the Parlainth book, I'm not convinced.
You'd be surprised, but I'll give you this one as the pictures in the ED 1st edition Main book are easily taken for Mesoamerican at a glance.
Lack of proof does not constitute proof. There are any number of ED cities which have yet to be located, not just the one that made a little jaunt into the metaplanes. Pluss, let us refer to the area as the Ukraine, and not RUssia proper, hmm? We're not talking the oniondomes of Moscow here.
THis is from real life, nobody knows for sure who built Teotihuacan, though the Toltecs are favored. As for the latter sentance, go re-read the citadel discovered in Australia earlier in the book.
The city originally slipped into a small metaplane or large astral pocket, and never moved "physically." It came back right where it used to. There IS precedent for a moving city, but Parlainth ain't it.
Go read the Dragons.pdf Feathereed serpents battling over life magic and death magic (especially teaching iot to cultists and the like) ever since the Age of LEgend. I'm not sure what draconic magic you're talking about (so I'll assume the Blood Mage Gestalt), but that simply reinforces my point. Of all dragons, Feathered Serpents are the ones most skilled in Nethermancy and blood magic, not Western Dragons like Charcoalgrin with the Gift for Gab. Oh, and Joseph Campbell was equally full of shit for nearly everything he was "right" about. Dinnae talk tae me about that Bronyx bastard.
Parlainth is A city, and in what is now a rather remote part of the world from most of the action. It could have fallen, or been sent back to the metaplanes, or anything. If it did go back to the metaplanes, and used the Longing Ring again, then noone knows of it and it couldn't possibly be Teo-fuckitIcannaespell-the Aztlanian City
Charcoalgrin was not known to be corrupted, and all evidence of a dragon behind AZT points to either DUnkie or a Feathered.
Neither is apparently immortal, and most people have suspicions that Juan wasn't e'en quite human anymore. Now, I grant you that Juan could be a draconic pawn or construct, but the chances he's Erpimese are about as likely as the Therans inventing time travel.
DO you REALLY want to get into the history of finding Troy? Sesriously, I think Shake has some good point...but others are just bullshit. I've read every English book in SHadowrun and Earthdawn. I've gone over 'em and made lists and shit. I'm not perfect, I could well have missed some things, and everything is open to interpretation. But I don't buy Parlainth skipping continents. I wouldn't have bought DUnkie skipping continents if they hadn't printed it. (by the by, they did confirm Atlantis is Thera in the 3rd ED main) |
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Jan 16 2004, 02:25 AM
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#65
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
The rascist undertones of the LOTR books were pretty damn clear to me. I'm surprised that they went over so many peoples heads.
Tolkein actually used that Jewish ancestry bit as a ploy to delay publication (ed- so he could swing a better deal), not because he was opposed to it. There is evidence, letters and such, that he was secretly a Nazi sympathizer. |
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Jan 16 2004, 02:29 AM
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#66
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Zazen, are you Conspir-i-see's half-brother?
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Jan 16 2004, 02:37 AM
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#67
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
You can find evidence to suggest just about anything, if you are inclined to find it. Just because you can find this evidence does not mean that such things even remotely resemble the truth.
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Jan 16 2004, 02:45 AM
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#68
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 23-May 02 From: Indy-LTG - midwest-RTG Member No.: 2,762 |
I have never heard that about Tolkein ... you lean somthing new every day I guess.
But on the topic of shadowrun being racist I would have to say I disagree just because you were born in aztlan doesn't mean you are evil or even predisposed to evil. They even refer to people being a very close culture and only paying lipservice to the Aztlan culture. Also remember that 60% or more of the NAN are from what was Mexico. (ever wonder where all the native american droped out of the sky from) I've always found it a great irony that nazi's got most of their ideas from another culture. |
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Jan 16 2004, 03:09 AM
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#69
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Examples Zaz? Although I did see the entire series as a massive exercise in homoeroticism. -Siege |
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Jan 16 2004, 03:31 AM
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#70
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
"if he tries anything, sam'll kill him." heh.
i honestly don't think tolkien's racist leanings--or the lack thereof--is really worth worrying about, any more than the pagan underpinings of christmas and other holidays is worth worrying about. if you have to argue this hard to convince someone that it's got a racist bias, then that bias really isn't strong enough to mean anything to an unbiased reader. |
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Jan 16 2004, 03:55 AM
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#71
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But Siege, you see that in everything ;)
~J |
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Jan 16 2004, 04:29 AM
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#72
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 14-January 04 Member No.: 5,978 |
I've already spent more time than I originally intended trying to solve the cause of your confusion and anger about my original post and that, after all, is my own fault. I merely brought some Earthdawn perspective which was lacking to the Horror discussion and mentioned my theory on Aztlan. It's not from a lack of precision on my part but on an infantile insecurity that some seem to be confused and angered.
I quoted some references to Horrors in Earthdawn and explained what they meant in that context and I corrected some of your misunderstandings about Earthdawn. Fairly simple. I explained a comprehensive theory on Aztlan based on the clues I've found in the E/S books. I was fairly clear how they all fit together and that there could be other clues that contradict the theory. But as far as I can tell, all the facts and clues fit as I have explained. I have a hard time understanding that since this makes sense, how some can be so fanatic in your refusal of it. Why does this matter that much to you? I could understand if there was another theory or something that contradicted what I said. If there is a better theory, or even another theory at all, I'm willing to listen. But if the Vampire from the Blood Wood argument doesn't move you, I doubt you'd be moved by anything because that seems like one of the most obvious hidden facts FASA has ever put into one of their books. That's about as obvious as 'Big D' being Dunkelzhan. Again, nothing too complicated on its face, but some wish to make it more complicated than it needs to be. It's clear that the issues you have about my post are issues you brought to this board, not issues you find here. I think that it's clear that I overestimated your ability to rationally discuss this and that your issues are deeper than insecurity about my post. The only help I can give to you is to suggest you seriously consider psychological therapy. Perhaps your High School Councilor could help you if you lack the funds to seek a specialist. This is only a game, not worth the anger displayed or the intentional misunderstandings. For whatever reason, my post means more to you than it does to me and I'm not interesting in provoking more boorish behavior from you by merely posting theories based on the internal facts of the E/S game world. I would also suggest that you take a look at the Earthdawn materials, though I know they are out of print and could be expensive for you to acquire. Earthdawn, while developed after S, contains many of the more subtle aspects of the E/S Mythos, particularly in regards to the basic metaphysics of Great Pattern vs Horrible Pattern. Once you read those E books, you might understand about the Creanan gods being the same as the Egyptian ones and what Leonardo's ‘Great Work’ really is. Or that the first Vampire came form the Blood Wood by reading the rather blunt description of her in ‘Blood Wood.’ Or by looking at the Parlainth boxed set and a Mexican history book, or a history of architecture (can always go to the library if you can't afford one) you will realize what the E/S developers intended, that Teotihuacan is Parlainth. The amount of care and time and specificity of the design isn’t lost on me, nor is the rather absurd notion of a city traveling and being totally forgotten by the whole world which fits perfectly for so many reasons with Teotihuacan, a site in Shadowrun that is specifically mentioned as one of the most extremely powerful and dangerous sites in the 6th world. It’s special for a reason and I merely follow the clues. This ‘Forgotten City’ is a central pillar of Earthdawn and is the bridge that directly links the E and S worlds and explains Aztlan and the horror connection, plus the Corrupt Dragon and immortal human (Ehren specifically states that Juan is ‘simply human’ but would take him to be an Immortal like himself in the S book ‘Aztlan,’ another one you should pick up). If you had the books, I’m sure you would understand since this isn't all that difficult to follow. I'm no expert by any means, but you really should take a look at some of the books I referred to and you'll see what I was talking about. And you won’t have to be corrected about them the next time if you understand what they actually say and mean, and not just your opinions of what you think they say. It is somewhat ironic that 'Ancient History' seems to not understand the ancient history of Shadowrun which is Earthdawn. It seems like not a lot of people on this S board really understand Earthdawn that much, so with a little effort and reading up, your name will no longer be ironical, but could be explanatory as you learn about the 'ancient history' of Shadowrun. Who knows, maybe you could be the local board expert on Earthdawn once you actually read the Earthdawn books and understand them. Seems unlikely now, but stranger things have happened, like a city moving from Russia to Mexico and being forgotten. Hey, if you read them all, you'll be one step up on a guy like me who only skims through them. Besides your anger and insecurities, the biggest block in your understanding my pretty simple and clearly explained points seems to be your lack of knowledge about Earthdawn. That might be easier to correct than your being a dick. Good luck with that and don't be afraid to ask for help when you need it. Denial is the greatest threat to mental health and learning. |
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 Jan 16 2004, 04:41 AM
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#73
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
You ignorant little shit. I give you props for research and having some decent, if wacky ideas and you have the gall to claim I haven't read the material? I own the material! All of it! Even the stuff you claim only to have skimmed! Have you ever visited my site you pretentious little fuckwit?
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Jan 16 2004, 04:47 AM
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#74
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I was just making up random nonsense, guys. Come on, Tolkien the nazi sympathizer who fakes moral disgust to get better publishing deals?! Yeeaah :P
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Jan 16 2004, 04:49 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 498 Joined: 31-May 02 From: All the way in the Back to the Left. Member No.: 2,800 |
Looks like Ancient has a new best friend.
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