 Master Shake For Shadowrun Product Line Developer, The Future Of Shadowrun |
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 Jan 10 2005, 08:04 PM
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#101
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528  |
On Shadowrun D20:
- There are some nice ideas to combine D20 and a more "realistic" combat system. For example the "Lifeblood" system from QLI's T20 where the "hitpoints" basically remain fixed - Not D20 as the only system but D20 as an alternate system could attract some more players (quite a few D20 games are a bit em focused on that game) And since when have more customers hurt a company? Birdy |
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Jan 10 2005, 08:10 PM
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#102
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
I would suggest that although I have been a proponent of Shadowrun d20 in the past, current market conditions, including the major fracturing of the d20 market [3.0, 3.5, d20 Modern, d20 Future, Mutants and Masterminds, Mongoose's OGL releases, BESM/Anime d20, etc ...] and the general softness of the RPG market would make a Shadowrun d20 release, at this time and in the near future, an unwise business idea.
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Jan 10 2005, 08:31 PM
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#103
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
Wow, I'm impressed. You managed to cram in both d20 Shadowrun AND the accusation that Shadowrun is headed in a wrong direction, two things that are sure to set off the Dumpshock community. I'd applaud your skill, but you really were too verbose about doing it... next time, cut it down to half as many paragraphs, and I'll be really impressed.
Seriously though--I don't agree with everything originally posted, but none of it was 'stupid.' I think that Shadowrun could learn something from D20 marketing, if not the system itself. |
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 Jan 10 2005, 08:47 PM
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#104
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 230 Joined: 3-December 04 Member No.: 6,863 |
I agree with you here. You can find D20 in almost any store, see it on posters, advertised on RPG sites and the such. for me to find Shadowrun material I had to look all over the net before finding a good place to order from. Quite a few of the game shops that are here in Houston had not even heard Shardowrun or thought that they went out of business when FASA closed its doors. |
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Jan 10 2005, 08:53 PM
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#105
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 24-February 03 From: The Containment Zone Member No.: 4,151 |
Er, I would say a couple things here....
1 - My hat of d20 know no limit. But that aside, Shadowrun d20 is a silly idea -- Shadowrun's system works just fine as is, and if you really want to run Shadowrun with the d20 rules, there's nothing stopping you from using the setting and rules from d20 Modern. Or from using Dp9's SilCORE rules. Or GoO's Tristat stuff from Ex Machina and the urban fantasy book they have coming out shortly. 2 - If you think ANYONE is going to pay you six figures to do ANYTHING in the RPG industry...you are sadly deluded about the state of said industry. Even if someone could quintuple Shadowrun's sales, I doubt FanPro could afford to pay that much. RPG development does not tend to be the route untold riches. Hell, video game development doesn't tend to be either, and that's a far more profitable industry. 3 - Rob has done an admirable job with line development and I think Shadowrun is as good as it was in the early 1990s, maybe better in some ways. For someone who has admitted they have never played Shadowrun other than the video game to say they can do the job better, especially when there's absolutely no evidence you've published ANYTHING, let alone decent Shadowrun material, takes so much hubris that your balls must make it hard for you to walk. Get over yourself. Seriously. When you've actually done ANY work in the RPG industry at all, have ANY idea how the business works or what makes a good RPG, or hell, if you ever play the goddamn game at all....well, you'll probably know better and won't make silly posts like this one. |
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Jan 10 2005, 09:06 PM
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#106
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
I don't like to bag on game stores, but any store that doesn't know Shadowrun is still about is really, really clueless. Shadowrun products are solicited in the same manner as other game industry products, FanPro attends both major North American game conventions and the GAMA trade show, ShadowrunRPG.com is the number 1 google hit for "Shadowrun" ... it's really not that hard for them to get ahold of us. Not that any game store needs to get ahold of the publisher, as FanPro's products are carried by every major distributor. That said, though, FanPro just hired Rett Kipp to handle marketing and other related stuff, to improve, well, everything related to marketing. |
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Jan 10 2005, 09:13 PM
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#107
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 24-February 03 From: The Containment Zone Member No.: 4,151 |
To be fair, one of the big things d20 has going for it is that WotC is big. No one can compete with the sheer scale of their operations, and that means they can do a lot of stuff other publishers can't -- like do the first print run of D&D 3 and sell it at below cost to start with, or bombard gaming stores with flashy marketing. Plus, you have to admit that when it comes to RPGs, there is absolutely no bigger a name than D&D -- when you find Joe Schmoe on the street and ask him about D&D, he might have a good or bad opinion of it, he'll at least know what it is. Ask him about Shadowrun and he'll probably say "Huh?" That's a pretty big barrier to entry. That said, I think FanPro is trying to get some more visibility -- the FanPro Commando program is all about that, and I'm sure Rob tries to get as much exposure for the game at the big gaming cons as he can. I think everyone can take d20 as an example of a great way to do marketing, if you're rich and have the money to spend on that sort thing. But the fact is, only WotC and maybe White Wolf have that kind of scratch to throw around. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jan 11 2005, 12:57 AM
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#108
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Guests |
Why are there people commenting on the six-figure sentence as if it was anything but a stupid joke?
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Jan 11 2005, 01:15 AM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
You just can't expect a RPG line to bring in enough money to compete with the type of money WotC gets from games like Magic: the Gathering. I know I spent something like $5k a year on boosters alone when I played magic, and I spend something like $100-200 a year on Shadowrun (maybe), and a good portion of that is shipping and handling. Given the nature of the beast, I think FanPro is doing an awesome job. It's lightyears ahead of some of the other companies that took over FASA products (LRGames, anyone?) as far as producing quality, well formated books. I've been part of RPG groups a few different regions of the US, and I've personally never met anyone who's played Shadowrun who didn't prefer it to D&D mechanically, including a quite a few lovers of Hack&Slash "roleplaying". |
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Jan 11 2005, 02:37 AM
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#110
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
Eh...I lost one player when he gave up on learning - he prefered the leveling system from D&D - you guarranteed got to level up after a while. Of course, he had the bad luck to fail to go up in various abilities and skills at least 4 times...he was frustrated beyond belief.
It was a shame too...he was a good RPer. |
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Jan 11 2005, 02:42 AM
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#111
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Er? Fail to go up how?
~J |
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Jan 11 2005, 02:42 AM
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#112
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Why is D&D always linked with Hacl&Slash? If I look at the last ten D&D games and the last ten SR games I participated in, the SR games where far more Hack&Slash than the D&D ones. Current generation (3 / 3.5) D&D is a very different beast from the AD&D I played ten years ago with the skill system as the default instead of an option and all. And D20 is more than just D&D. D&D has it's limits but it's not as if SR is perfect. Things like high body characters surviving grenades with minor scratches and the various dice tests are some that come to mind. Birdy |
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Jan 11 2005, 02:45 AM
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#113
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
He didn't get lucky with the rolls to raise Ettiquette from 3 to 4, for instance. One time he tried to raise a skill from 2 to 3 and didn't get the roll. I even did a house rule to make it so the roll was less and it didn't work. |
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Jan 11 2005, 02:56 AM
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#114
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
You are right, D&d and D20 are not the same. But the fact is that more D20 books are like D&D than they are aren't. |
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Jan 11 2005, 03:44 AM
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#115
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's not quite what he said--or, at least, that isn't all he said. what he said was that d20/D&D isn't automatically a hack-and-slash game. which is, point of fact, true: d20/D&D is no more a hack-and-slash game than SR is.
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Jan 11 2005, 03:48 AM
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#116
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
…Or you could have just not used that optional rule… ~J |
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Jan 11 2005, 04:20 AM
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#117
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Okay let's look at the classes. What one doesn't get nifty brownie points that are worthless outside of hack and slash? Well, everyone but the mage. How many spells are useful only in combat, a whole lot. Okay feats, what are nearly all feats, well how to do nifty things in combat. Let's look at the rule system..Boy they made skills to be just like the rules for combat. And yes you can play either as hack and slash or not..YOu can also play Feng Shui without combat..That doesn't mean one game isn't built around combat anymore or less. |
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Jan 11 2005, 04:33 AM
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#118
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
Uh, surprise, Shadowrun skills are designed just like the rules for combat too. And hey, Combat takes up about as much of the Shadowrun rulebook as it does the D&D rulebook. I knew that people around were a bunch of snobs when it comes to D20 in general and D&D in particular, but sheesh.
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Jan 11 2005, 04:43 AM
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#119
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I too, concur. If that is what Shake wants in his game, he can have it. I like to fill in some of the blanks myself. Having some leeway in describing the world and how it works is one of the things that makes it easier to find something to interest new players. |
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Jan 11 2005, 02:13 PM
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#120
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 519 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Queensland Member No.: 3,180 |
What about the suggestion of playing Androids?
Replicants from Bladerunner? Sunny/Sonny from I,Robot? Astroboy? A custom robot from Rigger 3? If these seem a bit much what about an SK or AI? A ghost in the machine? They could replace the decker with paralysis flaw (or similar) archetype (like Cindy or Jerusalem in the Aztlan book). Anyone ever do this? Shapeshifters, for instance, are considered to be pretty inhuman. |
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Jan 11 2005, 02:44 PM
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#121
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 24-February 03 From: The Containment Zone Member No.: 4,151 |
Androids are beyond the science and technology of Shadowrun as demonstrated -- AI takes a massively complex computer system to evolve, it cannot be intentionally created, it seems. Without AI, androids are just human-looking robots. While I think they could exist, they seem rather pointless. The human form is not really that great for most industrial-type work, which is what robots are used for, by and large, and you acn probably hire someone to work for minimum wage to take care of your house or work in a brothel for a lot cheaper than you can buy a robot for the same purpose, so I don't really see why anyone would develop them.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jan 11 2005, 04:15 PM
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#122
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Guests |
Shapeshifters are inhuman. Tech isn't at that point (even in the setting I play in which mundane tech like simsense is more advanced and robots are useful), and frankly there aren't enough (quasi-)sentient AIs in SR to provide a reason for making them PCs, whereas shapeshifters-- non-humans that they are-- probably number well into the thousands worldwide amongst the great variety of shapeshifter types. But that's an editorial decision. One that was made well after the existence of shapeshifters was made known, and probably due in no small part to a demand for shapeshifter PCs. I don't see rules for Sasquatches or Merrow even though they are sentient (Sasquatches for sure, Merrows and Nagas have been strongly suggested), or any of the Infected outside of Ghouls. But you can play a Drake--a creature with roots in ED and whose existence was made known in SR several years before Threats 2 came out, and weren't made available to be PCs until DotSW. Maybe the demand will eventually allow for Vampire PCs. But to play androids in SR, there generally have to be androids in SR. The closest we have now are cyberzombies and the robots in SR, the latter of which aren't sufficiently "self-motivational" to justify them being PCs. |
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Jan 11 2005, 05:24 PM
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#123
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
cynic, nearly every RPG is built with combat in mind first and foremost. take a look at the combat/non-combat skill split in SR. look at how much time is spent on combat- and combat-related rules, in SR. and, hey, look at that--the combat skills and the non-combat skills use the same basic mechanic, just like d20!
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Jan 11 2005, 06:23 PM
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#124
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 230 Joined: 3-December 04 Member No.: 6,863 |
Very good point. |
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Jan 11 2005, 07:18 PM
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#125
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
Actually it'd piss me off to use different mechanics for them, you want to simplify a game as much as possible.
While I have no facts and figures here, looking at local stores I get the idea the D20 flood is nearing it's end, I'm seeing more White Wolf and more true DnD stuff now and the D20 section has been shrinking at my local store. There still isn't any shadowrun books aside from used things that show up now and then though. Still I think this would be a bad time to jump on the ship, when it might be sinking. On the other hand I think SR could stand to go to version 4, if FanPro was able to handle that much work. There are a lot of goofy mechanics in SR, a lot of moments when even the most die-hard dumpshocker has admitted the writers must have been consuming vast amounts of crack when they wrote the books, and plenty of extremely exploitable holes in the system. Come to think of it I'm not sure I've ever played an SR game without some houserules to fix the more blatant stupidities. A few examples: The wolfhound (Rigger 3, page 177 is a premier scouting drone. That's why it has sensors 1 and could, on a good roll, notice an aircraft carrier. Ditto for the Macguyver robot later, designed for search and rescue even though it's sensors are so weak it won't find anything but a cyberzombie. And hey, let's give it a demolitions since nothing says "I'm here to rescue you" like throwing a satchel charge at them. Giving it, say, biotech would be absurd for a rescue vehicle. Under the given grenade and launch weapons rules a blind monkey defaulting to it's intelligence 1 (With a smartlink to get the TN under 8) has a 100% chance of landing an time-link minigrenade within 6 meters of it's target, and a 50% chance of hitting within 3 meters. Why bother with a launch weapons skill at all? Personally I find the rules for using skills and defaulting irritating as hell. Skill 6, attribute 6 should be better than skill 6, attribute one, not just more expensive (And set up in a way to encourage min-maxing to boot). On top of that having a low skill is often a death sentence and in many cases defaulting is actually better than a skill of just 1 or 2, at the very least it will avoid the heavy percentage of critical failures. The game really needs to be accessable to new players. When I picked up the new book for the first time I tried to study it for several hours, then called my players and told them we were going to have no magic (Except Adepts), no vehicles, and no matrix just so the game would actually be played that week. Note that this doesn't mean I think Master Shake should be doing it, nor do I demand these things be done. But if all these things were fixed in SR4 (And I think a new edition would be needed to handle them all) it would make me happy. |
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