SR3 vs 4 in Play |
SR3 vs 4 in Play |
Mar 3 2006, 01:30 AM
Post
#1
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 23-October 05 Member No.: 7,882 |
This question goes out to grizzled veterans of both SR3 and SR4. We haven’t played Shadowrun for about 18 months. We are about to start SR4.
My basic question is: How does it play by comparison? Compared to your SR3 experiences, how are the SR4 rules during actual game play? Do you find them very different? Better? Smoother? Slower? Faster? Etc. |
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 01:38 AM
Post
#2
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Just a quick reminder that everyone should read the relevant sticky before they talk SR3 vs. SR4. At least try to be civil.
|
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 01:41 AM
Post
#3
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 23-October 05 Member No.: 7,882 |
I can't believe I missed that sticky! OK, everyone play nice. In the end, I am just curious to hear your opinions.
|
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 02:03 AM
Post
#4
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
I'm finding that combat goes more quickly now that we have started to get the rules down. Both as a player and GM. Things definitely go quicker. However, some people might not like the restrictions on character creation.
|
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 02:40 AM
Post
#5
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
General feeling, I'm mixed. SR 3 allowed for highly detailed character generation and highly detailed action. But SR3 did so at the expense of consistency. SR4 works fairly well, albeit differently from SR3, it uses the same basic rule structure for all activities, however it does so at the expense of detail and to a degree, realism. That said I find that I prefer running and playing SR4 because there are fewer rule variations to keep track of, and by and large there is less number crunching to do, so generally in my games the plot progresses more smoothly.
|
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 02:45 AM
Post
#6
|
|
jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,358 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I like that things run very smooth. I always 'hated' the target number modifiers in SR (and the rolls against TN 6 or higher, which quickly happened with some modifiers, when suddenly the average number of successes dropped extremely fast). In fact, I had my own dice number modifier house rules in SR2 already, which scrapped the standard SR2 (and 3) system in favor of something very much akin to how SR4 does it now (tho, there were TNs of 4 and 5, some things, which made the task itself more difficult still raised the TN, while most things, which affected the ability of whoever attempted the task just altered the DN). That's much closer to the 'spirit' of the dice system IMHO, and as such SR4 is a big step up to me.
I'm not entirely sure how I like the changes in the Matrix section, but it looks like 'Deckers' (yeah, there are no 'Deckers' anymore) are much better playable now. I do miss the old dice pools some, I liked them. :) The game still plays and feels like Shadowrun. It's even more deadly now. It's definitely worth a look, if you know the old system. If you don't like it, you can still go back anytime. :) Bye Thanee |
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 08:59 AM
Post
#7
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
I've played one session as an archtype, trying to familiarize myself with the rules. I like how they got rid of combat pools but this Edge mechanic... I'm not a huge fan of save your ass points and it seems to be very powerfully unlethalizing in it's effect. Some people like this stuff because it's only a game but calling do-overs all the time, deus ex machina and all just takes my mind out of the setting. I'd rename it something like the "handicap" stat, like in golf, so certain players that are inexperienced aren't taken out too quickly and their feelings aren't hurt and they can pretend they can play with the big boys.
the 4th edition rulebook is a rush job, they tried to put too much stuff in there when I would have been happy getting the basics. It's huge, I just wasted a lot of time trying to find the rules for cultured bioware, it's not in there but it's mentioned a few times in the text, very confusing. [I find the sticky to be very overbearing, evoking nietzsche, anything I just said can be taken as a positive or a negative by someone that thinks our negative comments are going to destroy Shadowrun Inc. really, it's future is in the hands of the upcoming microsoft game] |
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 11:00 AM
Post
#8
|
|
Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
Really finding it runs nice and smooth, a few things I never got my head round (rigger3 stuff) now makes sense to me.
I kinda miss pools, but my players don't. Edge is interesting and makes the players agonise nicely in a way they never did about karma pool/combat pool. The advancement is slow, really slow, I've rebuilt a few ubercharacters with players for some high powered revisiting of old games, and while the sniper ran out of stuff to do at about 800 (was a 450 karma character, gave him more to account for a five year gap in play) the mages are on similar numbers but barely level with their old selves, and the sniper looks like he should (and did at 450 karma) 160 game session to reach top of the game seems good to me. Now I just have to play it... |
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 01:42 PM
Post
#9
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
It runs smoother. Eyeballing let's the GM escape serious numbercrunching in the middle of firefights. (Until you get the hold of rules and then it becomes simple numbercrunching.)
Hacking is a great great improvement. It really is so much nicer to play a hacker you wouldn't believe. The vehicle rules are nicer, but underdeveloped, I guess you can only squish so much material in one book. All in all I am eagerly waiting for the sourcebooks to develop the game. Also eagerly praying for said sourcebooks not to Übercomplicate things again. cheers, Max |
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 02:43 PM
Post
#10
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
You've definitely got to watch the money. You can'th and out SR3 levels of cash (10,000 :nuyen: to 30,000 :nuyen: ) but you can't' just give five grand to a whole team like the opening fiction, either.
|
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 03:01 PM
Post
#11
|
|||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Our last run we got 7K gross for the whole team, and that is only because I made a veiled extorsion on the J when negotiating the price. The J came in thinking 800 each for the 4 people she saw. Mind you it was Friday night to Monday morning from start to close, the run itself was a quick in and out Onsite File Edit, and our only costs ended up gas, a few bullets, and a 500 :nuyen: piece of pay data. Right now we are an unpolished team and pulling about 3 jobs/month. This was also the lowend of our pay. Damn J was a university grad, and working for students just don't pay so well. The name of the fixer on the job, Steve The Weasel, was kind of ominous too. :P |
||
|
|||
Mar 3 2006, 03:36 PM
Post
#12
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I played SR3 for about eight years and none of the earlier editions so I don't know if that makes me a grizzled veteran or not, but I have to say SR4 is a god send. I know, rabid fanboy, yadda yadda yadda.
Anyway, the gripes others have about character creation haven't happened to me in the real world yet, and one or two of my players actually like the skill/attribute caps at character gen (one max attribute, 2 skills at 6 or one at 5) as they leave room for advancement. I'm a little miffed at the number of extended tests since they seem to really make the progress of a game hit the wall as your hacker rolls dice for a few moments trying to hack. I'm hoping that as players get the rules down they'll begin to make their own tests and I won't have to hand hold them through it all, but we can all dream, right? I like the new corps, too, if only for new blood to put into the waters. Granted we don't know much about Horizon and NeoNet and Evo are nothing more that re-worked old corporations, but I've had some fun convincing my players that there's more to Evo than just a new name.... And I've never had a problem divorcing my game from canon anyway. Hacking is a wonderful change if you don't mind the fact that much of it is left up to the GM (Edit tests anyone?) and in SR3 I had a hard and fast no-riggers rule, but now the new vehicular rules (especially the new Chase Combat stuff) make it much more sane. The vehicular customization is a little lacking, but we don't have a "Rigger 4" to work with yet? Game play is pretty smooth. The fact that almost everything is an opposed test now makes things very nice. Combat does seem to be more deadly, as does spell drain at times. Hope you enjoy. |
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 04:36 PM
Post
#13
|
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Overall it runs smoother and for the most part faster, at least after you get used to the rules. There is a definite sacrifice of realism with the streamlined rules and I'm still not loving the character generation. The new rules also seem pretty thought out for the most part (see "Resolving crashes" thread). I also like the changes to the magic system and astral. Not sure I like the reverse inflation either, especially when converting existing characters that may have :nuyen: 200,000+.
|
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 04:51 PM
Post
#14
|
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I'll be the voice of dissent. There are a lot more tests to make than ever before, with just as many modifers. So, I've discovered that you spend more time rolling the dice than ever before. Character creation is a nightmare, with my fastest attempt taking over two hours, and my worst taking several days. Rigging is better, but that's not saying much; competitive basket weaving would have been better than the Maneuver Score.
In general, SR4 isn't *that* much simpler or faster than SR3, and it's still a tortise with arthritis when compared to other systems, such as Savage Worlds. |
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 05:17 PM
Post
#15
|
|||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
For ingame logic the price changes, and not all of them went down significantly, were sorely in need. For character conversions it is tricky. Especially because not all the costs moved the same way and the same amount. Cash itself though seems to be worth roughly 2 to 3 times what it was before, so rough conversions based on that will get you through. The Crash 2.0 being the cliche reason for the runner losing the cash, although if you are jumping your timeline straight ahead to '69 or '70 you are glossing over a lot of stuff anyway. |
||
|
|||
Mar 3 2006, 05:26 PM
Post
#16
|
|||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Wow, seriously? I'll state that I've experienced otherwise and leave it at that. |
||
|
|||
Mar 3 2006, 05:30 PM
Post
#17
|
|||||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I've taken days, but the character was done long before that. :) Just going back and tweaking things in a perfectionist way. Cripy, using one of the number of character generators over an the Community board 15 to 20 minutes and you've got a solid PC. Another 5 to 10 to polish maybe. |
||||
|
|||||
Mar 3 2006, 05:31 PM
Post
#18
|
|||||||
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Seriously. And none of my friends have been able to do any better. This happens to include a bunch of very experienced gamers, with over 100 years of experience between the lot of us. Personally, I've had an easier time with GURPS or Champions.
I'm not comparing it with generators, because McMackies was the greatest thing since sliced bread. At any event, I can never get the ones here to work properly. Call it my lack of technical skills. |
||||||
|
|||||||
Mar 3 2006, 05:40 PM
Post
#19
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Just a couple of weeks ago I introduced two complete SR newbs (Vampire and D20 vets though) to my regular crew (12+ years SR experience) for a new SR4 campaign and everybody had complete characters ready (that includes upgraded commlinks with full program loads all round) and was playing within 30 minutes.
|
|
|
Mar 3 2006, 05:45 PM
Post
#20
|
|||
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I can't even succesfully speed-read the character creation rules and gear in less than 30 minutes. I suppose having people help you with premade character concepts would be a lot faster, though. |
||
|
|||
Mar 3 2006, 05:46 PM
Post
#21
|
|||||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Not being able to operate a laid out and formated spreadsheet, or Daegann's simple program isn't just a lack of techincal skill. It is a great explaination why it is taking you so long. I suppose it might take me an hour or more with pencil to build a character. Depends on how picky I get with the non-implant gear. I find that is what takes the most time if you are trying juggle equipment purchases around to use up the last few nuyen. Until the GM gives a few nuyen leeway or lets you just carry extra cash through to your character it is pretty hard to get away from that time sink. |
||||
|
|||||
Mar 3 2006, 05:48 PM
Post
#22
|
|||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Yeah, so I don't get the problem. I mean, I make up NPCs as fast as I can physically scribble down their stats. Shopping for gear takes a little while longer since nuyen have a higher resolution than build points (and there's a catalog to flip through), but a half hour is about average development time for me. That's with an eye towards optimization without going overboard, too. That'll likely change a bit as we get more sourcebooks, of course. |
||
|
|||
Mar 3 2006, 05:56 PM
Post
#23
|
|||
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Pencil and paper, I can create a Savage Worlds character in under five minutes, a WoD character in about 10-15, and a simple SR3 character in 10 or less (With McMackies, that time could drop to three minutes or less). A 400-point GURPS character takes me between an hour and an hour-and-a-half, depending on rather or not I have a calculator handy. Champions can take me over two and a half house, but usually comes in at about two. In all of the above cases, the character is fully tweaked and ready to run, down to the last detail. Now, some of that is a lack of familiarity with the rules. I don't know Champions or SR$ very well, so I waste a lot of time on back-and-forth between the pages. However, some of that is blatant design flaws in SR4's layout: the qualities section really needs to be at the end of the chapter, instead of being in the middle of everything. But a lot of that is just because trying to balance out 400 points is a lot more complex than the old Priority Table ever was, and not a whole lot more flexible. |
||
|
|||
Mar 3 2006, 06:28 PM
Post
#24
|
|||
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
:? :wobble: Ya, SR3 was fast because Skill choices were so easy. A few Skills at 6 and maybe a 5, and then a 1/3, 2/4, or something like that. Max out the usualy suspect Attributes. Umm, Adept Powers and the huge Spell list you had memorized I guess? The location of the Qualities is a problem? So in a completely different book in SR3 was better? And you needed Edges/Flaws balanced if you are using Alpha Priorities. Good gravy, SR4 even has the BP costs summory on page 348 where it is all condensed to one page. |
||
|
|||
Mar 3 2006, 06:52 PM
Post
#25
|
|||||
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Beatinga dead horse, perhaps, but this strikes me as extremely strange, as well. I took my SR4 rulebook over to a friend's house; and inside 4 hours, both of them had characters down to the polishing-only level. One has 10 BP she needs to make up her mind with (three more spells? A couple of ranks of skills?), and the other needs to make up his mind about which drones he wants. Neither had ever played Shadowrun, or even read William Gibson, before; so inside this time, I had to 1) Run down the basics of the game world; 2) run down general archetypes; 3) run through a rules summary, to at least give an idea of relative importance of attributes vs. skills; 4) explain the hacking, spell-casting, and combat sequences; 5) familiarize them with skill groups, and what skills were available; 6) Familiarize one of them with spells and spell types; 7) familiarize them both with the concept of commlinks and augmented reality; 8) Familiarize one of them with rigging, its ins and outs, and how to modfy a vehicle; and lastly, 9) actually herd them both through the process of compromises to get a legal starting character. I really don't understand why it takes you so long to do up an SR4 character. |
||||
|
|||||
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 2nd January 2025 - 11:41 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.