 SR3 vs 4 in Play |
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 Mar 9 2006, 04:28 AM
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#101
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210  |
Heh for those who my statment made their butt pucker some. We all have our limits. Now with help of drugs and such those limits can be pushed and as time goes by I am sure tech well extend even those limits.
But there are limits, having a truely open ended game is more likely to promote min/max then roleplaying and making the GM make truely monstrous villians to kill the pcs but kill avg joe with a sneeze. I am not against open ended systems per say, I have played in plenty of them and have had fun. I just believe there are limits till somthing comes along to raise those limits to the next lvl such as the wares we use to boost our chars. I don't mind SR4 putting on caps, I just think they are a little low for range of advancement. For those who eat, sleep and crap SR, it wont take long for them to reach those caps which could prove daunting in the long run. Though it may not matter, you could raise caps to 20 and it seems most of us will reach it by time more source books comes out I anyway which may make it mote. |
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Mar 9 2006, 04:59 AM
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#102
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i know. but the closed scale itself--especially a closed scale whose upper limits can be reached at chargen--is something about SR4 that's rankled me since i was first introduced to it. JongWK, they once said the same thing about the 4-minute mile, as referenced above. i'm not saying that there are no limits on what a human body is capable of. i'm saying that we haven't determined those limits; and, given that fact, it seems more realistic to me to make advancement harder and harder and each progressive level than to simply cap it off completely. |
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Mar 9 2006, 05:02 AM
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#103
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
So, let me get this straight. Instead of working with the player to solve the issue, or stretching your creativity as a GM to bring the character's flaws into the game, you'd prefer to beat the player over the head? :please:
You're definitely smoking something good. That would give him an unaugmented 8 dice, versus his current 6. That averages to 2.66 successes vs 2, or less than one success difference. There's not much of a mechanical advantage, and certainly not one that offsets 8 additional dice!
The specializations, on average, add .66 successes for 2 points. Buying a new skill point offers you .33 successes per 4 points. As you can see, adding specializations is a very efficient way of improving your character. As for Survival and Navigation, those are mostly useless in an urban environment, which is where most shadowrunning takes place. What's more, you can default to them readily enough; they default to Intuition, which is usually kept high to improve Initiative. In this case, he'd have 3 dice for each of those skills-- not a lot, but he'd be better off than Joe Average.
Oops. I meant Nonconductivity.
With 18 dice in his primary combat skill, he won't be relying on edge that often. And, clever min/maxers always try and maneuver the situation so that their best area comes forth. In this case, he might not be able to negotiate very well; but he can switch tactics to a Fast Talk. While the book does say that you can refuse to let a character default, it also makes it clear that this isn't the case most of the time. A skill rating of 0 doesn't mean total helplessness in that area, after all; just look at the skill ratings descriptions. Are you planning on not letting this character default, just because you don't like him? Wow. As for the wallpaper comment-- if you've ever actually "roleplayed" in a game, you'd know that all characters are just numbers on paper. What brings a character to life isn't the stats on the page, it's the way he's played in game. A good player and a good GM can turn even the most bland set of stats into a wonderful character, and a poor GM can ruin it for everyone. I can't help but wonder *why* you haven't seen this happen, especially if you're usually the GM.
You don't find twenty-six dice in one test unbalancing? Good gods! And tell me, do you expect all your PC's to cover each and every possible area of expertise, and spank them when they don't do it? Why on earth don't you allow players to run character concepts that meet *their* goals, instead of yours?
The problem is this: he has a hyperspecialization, and no major weaknesses. His shortcomings aren't anything more than what most other characters would have. All characters have minor shortcomings, but a balanced chargen system should make it so a super-focused character pays for it by being noticeably weak in other areas. This character doesn't have that.
The problem isn't just the realism of the scale, even though it pushes the boundaries of suspension of disbelief to the extreme. The problem here is that you can easily create a character with absolutely no room for growth. Also, this system doesn't allow for any fine granularity at the high end-- when the "best of the best" are competing, they're on effectively equal grounds, even though one should have a distinct advantage over another. For example, Fastjack should have it all over a fresh-out-of-chargen character, even though they're both "the best of the best". |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:59 AM
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#104
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
A player whose intent is to try get something for nothing by exploiting the system? They just might get a figurative wack to the head, yes. It certainly doesn't warrant an uppity tone about it given the goal of blatant abuse of the rules that you are showing. It also doesn't need a whole lot of creativity as it is a straightforward application of the rules.
Depending on the situation the player might not even know the status of their damage track without rolling, or having someone else spend at least a Free Action checking it and perhaps a second Free Action to relay some sort of message to the PC. I think back to the Simpsons episode where Homer has heart surgery. Hibbert:You're going to need open heart surgery. Homer: Spare me your medical mumbo jumbo. Hibbert: We're going to cut you open and tinker with your ticker. Homer: Could you dumb it down a shade? This does bring up the question of what the next sentence on page 82 means in practice.
Me, I'd likely not be so cruel as to not allow them a Defaulted roll to check what state they were in. Although if their Logic was low it might be kinder to stop them. :)
:? If they have Perception 4, Initiative 4, and the Vision Enhancement 3 that is a total of 11 dice for vision based perception, 8 dice for other perception checks. Having the Skill doesn't invalidate the die pool bonus.
:| That's two incorrect assumptions that were covered explicitly in the last post. I gave an example of Navigation and Survival in an urban setting, and just like all other Skills you cannot always Default. As for most shadowrunning taking place in an urban environment, I suppose that is true of many games. However I tend to play in games where variety occurs often enough that having a character and team lacking the skills to function outside that environment is a very bad thing.
That is clearly not the tone I am striking there. But this has become a common theme with you, decrying this percevied percecution of the player. :wobble: I would hope that the group would be able to handle a variety of missions if the campaign was geared towards professional runners. The people I play with do like to keep their game switching around with variety, and I enjoy that myself. A gang campaign with lower powered characters obviously wouldn't be expected to have the same depth to the PCs. I wouldn't intentionally "spank" them unless perhaps they were willfully attempting the break or pervert the game. But more likely someone acting like that/you and who continued to act that way would evetually be unwelcome. I'm not talking about my decision either, that sort of thing is a group decision to be made and would happen less formally. I'm not sure where 26 dice is coming from? A rough count makes it something under 20, about 18 or so dice when you can use the Specialization. That is quite the impressive shooter, but I wouldn't fear such a PC dominating because you can only shoot someone just so dead. They'll one-shot kill a lot of the time, but without burst fire targets with decent Reaction and some cover or other visual modifier help will at least survive the first shot even without using Edge. If even a significant portion of my runs hinged solely on shooting someone at close range dead then this could be an issue. But that isn't the case, and if it was I'd consider this character one of the least of the problems at such a table. |
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Mar 9 2006, 10:05 AM
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#105
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
An Incompetence: First Aid is clearly not a major exploit of the rules. That skill should see enough common use to be a major hindrance, without having to slap the player with extra penalties. Incompetences in Magical and/or Resonance skills are abusive, provided the character isn't Awakened/Otaku, but First Aid is another thing entirely-- why are you punishing the players so harshly?
At the cost of eight dice of edge, which is quite the mechanical advantage, even if it's limited. And in addition to the fact that 8 dice is probably more than enough for Perception tests, you're comparing a 300 :nuyen: piece of gear versus a 16 point expenditure. Even if you have to buy another resource point to get it, the gear comes out as a much more efficient purchase. What's more, the biggest need for Perception-- Surprise Tests-- doesn't directly use Perception at all. It's an Initative test, and he'll get 10 dice regardless of Perception. Some of the skills, such as Perception, are mostly superfluous if you've got good attributes and gear. This is a weakness in the system that can't be argued away.
First of all, situations where you can't default are few and far between. Everyone who doesn't have an Incompetence should be able to start a fire with a matchbook and use a compass to find North. Because of that, the character isn't lacking anything-- no one can have skills in all areas. Even if the game forces characters out of their home environment, they're not totally helpless and nonfunctional. Second, even when that happens, a character can always go for a longshot test. Assuming the player is intelligent, he'll save his edge for the big rolls, where it's sorely needed. If the player is really intelligent, he'll have already laid in gear to offset any penalties that might accrue-- for example, he might be packing a mapsoft to aid in Navigation tests. Since you can update a mapsoft to create custom maps, you can easily retrace your steps in a sewer with one.
A "variety of missions" typically means that you give them a number of options, all based on what the characters do best. Deliberately forcing them into doing mostly non-spec missions is just GM cruelty. You aren't just setting a tone-- you're saying outright that if the players don't make characters that meet your expectations, you'll apply additional penalties to them: not letting them default, denying them the same information you'd give other players freely, and so on.
And again with the rollplaying! Since when does a character require extra power to have depth? As a GM, I'd rather see an extensive background than an extensive skill list. Roleplaying is going beyond the numbers. Are you really going to punish a player who's relying on roleplaying instead of stats?
1. The AVS and Sakura are both burst-fire capable semiauto handguns. 2. Even if they survive the first shot, since the character specializes in semi-autos, he'll almost always have a second shot. As for the character dominating, that would occur because of the biggest flaw in the SR4 mechanics... well, not just SR4, but any system that has penalties that remove dice. Namely, the fact that once enough penalties have been applied, skill ceases to matter. Both nWoD and SR4 suffer the same flaw, although they handle it differently. In both cases, they try to make is so a player can still try and make a lucky hit, regardless of the odds. This makes for some fun and heroic roleplaying at times. However, the fact that the penalties can only go so far is a fundamental part of the system, and it can't be fixed without altering the core die mechanic. In nWoD, once your skill has been reduced to zero, you still get one die to roll. However, it only succeeds on a 10, instead of the usual 8. Because you'll botch if you roll a 1, your odds of succeeding or failing miserably are identical. So, skilled and unskilled characters have the exact same chance to pull off a difficult stunt. However, you can still pile on the modifiers, since no matter what happens, you still have that one die. In some ways, SR4 is worse at this. It solves some of the problem by simply not letting players even try, unless they want to get lucky. However, the lucky characters then have an advantage over the skilled ones. Here's an example: Matt "Marksman" Markovich is one of the best in the world with assault rifles (Quickness 7, Automatics 7). However, he's not very lucky (Edge 1). And now, the run is hosed, and his team is in trouble. They're trying to escape, but they've got a Steel Lynx chasing them. Marksman is using an AK-97 he picked up off a dead guard. It's not smartlinked, but it does have a laser sight (+1, total 15 dice). Unfortunately, he's in a moving vehicle (-3), the light is poor (-2), and it's raining heavily (-4, with an additional -1 because the laser sight no longer works). To make matters worse, the GM has ruled that since the Steel Lynx is dodging behind traffic, it effectively has good cover against him (-4); also, it's 60 meters away, which is Medium range for him (-1) but well within Short range of it's LMG. Total modifiers: -15, leaving him with zero dice. Even if he spends his one point of edge on a longshot test, he can't possibly get enough successes to hurt the thing, since the rule of six doesn't apply to longshot tests. He could theoretically Take Aim, but even then, it wouldn't be mugh help. "Drek!" Marksman growls, and looks over at his teammate, Mr Lucky. He throws the gun over to him. "Here, you make the shot!" Mr. Lucky has no Automatics skill at all (-1), but he does know where the selector switch is, so he switches over to burst-fire (-2). He's also Moderately wounded (3 boxes, -1 penalty). He then calls a shot to bypass the Lynx's armor (-9) and lines up to fire. He doesn't bother to Take Aim, since it's not going to make a difference-- he could even blindfold himself, if he wanted. Total modifier: -28. Mr. Lucky now spends a point of Edge. He's got eight dice to make the test with, which averages to 2.66 successes, rounded up to 3. (He could also buy 2 successes outright, but most GM's won't allow characters to buy successes in combat.) The Lynx dodges with it's Pilot of 3, which results in 1 success-- a hit! It now has to face a 6P +2 (burst fire) +2 (net successes) = 10P attack, with absolutely no armor to help. Since it has a Body of 4, it averages 1.33 successes, which rounds down to 1. It takes 9 boxes of damage. What's more, even if we figure generously and round up, it still takes 8 boxes of damage, which is more than it's Body, and forces an immediate Crash Test. Since a drone doesn't have a Reaction score, it only gets it's Pilot of 3 to make a Threshold 3 test, and has -3 in wound modifiers. It fails. Mr. Lucky lets out a war whoop, and his teammates all slap him on the back for a good shot-- all except for Marksman, who grouses about how he could have done the same thing. So, the problem is this: in the pinch, in the big dramatic final moments, the lucky character will be the one who pulls it off. Not the specialists, and defintely not the generalists; the lucky character with a lot of wisely-spent edge will get the limelight at the critical moments. That's a form of game-domination in the worst way-- all characters should be able to shine in their specialty, instead of being outdone by sheer luck. |
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Mar 9 2006, 03:29 PM
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#106
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Bull. SR3 had dice caps by default*, but the way the TN system worked you could remove them and still challenge everyone without too much trouble. That was the great part about the mostly-exponential increase in difficulty the TN system offered: difficulties scaled extremely well and made the game playable over a large variety of power levels. The +8 Blind Fire penalty for example meant something to *everyone*, no matter how twinked out you were, but still allowed for the occasional lucky shot even by the most cross-eyed noncombatant. That kind of thing doesn't exist in SR4. It can't, by nature of the linearity of its dice system. This is how you end up with all those weird cases with Blind Fire destroying some characters and not affecting others in the slightest. The Long Shot rules are kind of silly as well, as Cain demonstrated. Perhaps a fix would be to add one-half the difference between your original dice pool and the penalties to the Threshold? *shrug* *-By the way, you may want to keep this in mind, everyone going on about how hard dice caps on skills/attributes suck. SR3 had 'em too; they were just higher than the normal chargen ones. SR4's big change was how you could *get* to those hard limits at chargen, which I'm really not convinced is a good idea. |
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Mar 9 2006, 03:33 PM
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#107
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
SR3 had hard caps on attributes, but not on skills. Of course, because of diminishing returns I don't think I ever saw a skill go above a 10, or a specialization above 12.
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Mar 9 2006, 04:38 PM
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#108
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
@Cain
Looking back on how long it took to straighten out your gross misconceptions of the basics of income tax, I think the best response to you is summed up by that flash that made the rounds on the internet years ago. http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare.php You certainly don't seem to want to understand, so I don't really see it as a good idea for me to spend more time trying to explain. :( |
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Mar 9 2006, 05:31 PM
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#109
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
ah, the old "insult + brushoff in the face of sound logic" maneuver. brahm is teh winnar!
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Mar 9 2006, 05:34 PM
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#110
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
EDIT: Stupid fast clicking mouse. I'll try again in a new post.
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Mar 9 2006, 05:38 PM
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#111
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
No, the give up because his reading comprehension is TeH sUXx maneuver. Nobody wins. :( EDIT Really, how seriously can you take someone that with apparently a straight face says burst-fire capable semiauto handguns? What kind of conversation can you expect? |
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Mar 9 2006, 05:42 PM
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#112
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210 |
Look I don't mind a open ended or closed system, I have fun in both. I just think each has some merits over the other.
Open ended system promotes a level/skill climb as a sign of progression and a closed system sets limits and leaves up to the chars to expand their chars in other ways. Not all choices are Ugh says SR3 Bad/Good. I just prefer SR4 over SR3 but I am not against SR3. The idea of a open ended game with diminishing returns is not a bad one, you can still press foward but it gets harder each step, just like in weight lifting. At first you start building up the weight you push fast, then it starts to slow down and finely each few pounds of extra weight you can now lift is a tremendous work of effort to go further. If this still makes the butt pucker, I will just have to make up some BS and see where that runs. I am always curious about people response to truth or bs. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:05 PM
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#113
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Yes, there are limits. Of course, I would not consider Mr. Lucky "done." He's a gutter punk with a smart mouth, a bit of sneaky and some 'ware focused on his pistol. He can't even fix his own gun. Heck, he can't even toss a grenade without defaulting. He's a prodigy, admittedly, but little more. His Edge means he's lucky but any concerted effort will outrun his Edge. BTW: I'd let you have that many Incompetence flaws but only if they were suitable for the campaign. In this case you could choose Mechanic(Firearms), Mechanic(Ground Vehicles), Pilot(Ground Vehicle), Hardware (I know people who can build PCs without using them), Computer (I might let a player choose Software but only if you also took Computer).
Except that the Street Sam can likely beat Mr. Lucky in hand-to-hand, by chucking a couple grenades (Athletics), can punch Lucky's ticket from down the block or simply spray the whole building with his LMG. Mr. Lucky is good for two things: short range combat and talking his way into jobs. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:08 PM
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#114
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
so, when someone calls you on a simple error in your post, it's being petty, but when you call them on an even lesser error, it's grounds for dismissing their entire argument? double standards ftw! besides which, in this case, you are the one who is the dumb. "burst-fire capable semiauto handgun" is a perfectly sensible phrase. it is a handgun with selective fire: semiauto, and burst-fire. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:16 PM
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#115
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
One error, no problem. A few errors sure, hey crap happens. But he has left a wide, sticky trail of them. This isn't an issolated thing. The income tax stuff is a microcosm of it. On top of it he actually had the nerve to lambaste me not once but twice for not reading or researching. :love: |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:18 PM
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#116
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
So an M-16 is a semi-automatic weapon? :please: Just give it up. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:19 PM
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#117
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
newsflash: neither of you are the clear winner on the tax questions. christ, at this point, the argument has become so arcane that most people don't even know what the hell you're arguing about.
oh, for fuck's sake. an M-16 is an automatic--semi and full (or burst, if it's an A2). you're nitpicking on semantic details that don't mean a damn thing to anybody. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:20 PM
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#118
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Another reminder: Bull has explicitly put the kibosh on conversations like this when they devolve into personal attacks.
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Mar 9 2006, 06:22 PM
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#119
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
He certainly didn't know what he was arguing about. :) Sorry if it that isn't clear to you because you don't understand the topic. ;P |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:23 PM
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#120
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I guess I should just stop replying to mfb as well too. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:24 PM
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#121
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you can continue to believe that, and you'll continue to be wrong. you're just as set in your arguments as Cain is in his and i am in mine. the only difference is, we don't belittle you for it. we're at least that honest.
Azralon's right. i've said my piece. have fun. |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:30 PM
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#122
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
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Mar 9 2006, 06:35 PM
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#123
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Mommy... daddy... please don't fight.
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Mar 9 2006, 09:03 PM
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#124
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Okay, I agree with what you are saying, but...
Why shouldn't a fresh PC with the same background be almost identical? The other problem with the system is that the truly awesome are as good as the the best of the best because it is almost impossible for them to fail. |
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Mar 9 2006, 10:26 PM
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#125
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Ah, yes. When faced with logic, resort to direct insults. Dude, just because I pointed out troubling areas in your character creation logic, your self-reported GM Hammer usage, and rollplay vs roleplay styles, doesn't mean I don't want to understand. It's entirely possible that I do understand, and disagree, and maybe I even have very strong and logical reasons for doing so.
By that standard, no character is ever "done", in any system at all. No character should be expert, or even proficient, in all things. Again, the problem with min/maxing isn't that the resulting characters have flaws; the question is how severe are those flaws in play? In this case, and many others, you can have a hyperspecialist without serious weaknesses. This really devalues any "well rounded" character concept.
*checks page 101* Actually, in HTH, they have an identical amount of dice. For grenades, it's based on your Throwing Weapon skill, not Athletics; since neither of them have it, they end up exactly the same. The street sam does have a variety of full-auto weapons he can use with ease, but recoil pushes those modifiers down significantly. So, in a straight-out fight, the BBB street sam ranges from "totally outclassed" to "very close" in power levels and effectiveness. The difference will often come down to luck, which Mr. Lucky can afford to rely on a lot more often. At any event, this example was to show that Mr. Lucky isn't significantly worse than a "well-balanced" character in many areas, and has a huge advantage in one. This means there's no real advantage in creating a "balanced" character, so you might as well create a super-specialized monster and be done with it.
Well, the "best of the best" covers a wide array of ground. For example, Olympic athletes might be our standard for the "best of the best"; however, there's a lot of variation between them. After all, not everyone goes home with a gold medal. Even within the "best of the best" category, we have to allow for some variation due to natural abilities and skills. If it were just luck, Apolo Ohno would have an equal chance of winning against Jon Eley; Apolo took home the gold, and Eley came in last place. Both would completely dominate over a lesser athlete, but one was still better than the best. [Edit 1]Another example in the BBB is Edison and Tesla. Both are listed as Legendary in technical skills, which is perfectly warranted. However, Edison is most famous for the incandescent lightbulb and the grammophone, inventions that are fading from common usage: flourescent and halogen bulbs are replacing filaments, and CD/DVD/MP3 audio have almost completely erased LP records from use. Tesla's three most famous inventions are the Tesla Coil (still used in special effects studios), the transformer (necessary for any electrical device that uses AC current) and the radio (a core part of the SR4 technology assumptions). Both have had a huge effect on the progress of technology, and have earned their place as legends. However, it's obvious that they're not equal. [Edit 2] I realized that I didn't exactly answer your question. I've been told by many people that the default assumption for a starting SR4 character is that you're a relative newcomer to the shadows. You're not a total newbie, but you're not a major mover and shaker, either. There's a major disconnect between that concept, and the ability to have a totally maxed-out character right out the gate. No fresh-to-the-shadows character should be the equal of Fastjack or Dr. Raven. |
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