SR3 vs 4 in Play - Dumpshock Forums

SR3 vs 4 in Play

Deadjester View Member Profile	Mar 11 2006, 04:08 AM Post #176
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	I have

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 11 2006, 04:23 AM Post #177
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	m'kay. that's one guy who's seen... how many characters with skills/specializations of 14+? and if it was a problem, did the GM in question make any attempt to regulate advancement? heck, the training time rules in SRComp will stop most abusers dead in their tracks.

Deadjester View Member Profile	Mar 11 2006, 06:13 AM Post #178
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	Game didnt last that long shortly after. But on avg, (which we know is not absolute) players I have met across the country that like to min/max highly have a hard time not doing it to the exclusion of all else till they are happy none can beat them. Which is the issue I generally run into. Get two of those players in the same game and all hell breaks loose for many can't help compeating with their fellow gamers even though its about the PCs vs the NPCs. And many just want to make it where the npcs just don't have a chance in hell so its more like a gun fest for them then anything else. Now SR4 could easily still be a open system, on avg it taking 3 dice to equal a hit, there comes a point where its more work then progress for the time spent getting so high. I know most of the issues are player issues but its been common enough that somthimes I think you have to put in some preventive measures. Another side of the dice is that its nice to have some measure in your head to compare everything to, to give you that feel for the reality of it all. With 3 being considered avg, I could easily live with a 10+1 lvl system (much needed room for growth in comparison to starting char). To have it truely open ended at some point it will start looking more like numbers and have a less and less real feel. RPGs by their very nature are two fold, half rules to make it work and the rest psychology. The rules need to reflect the psychology of what you want to portray so that you truely feel you are some place else for time you are playing. So if the system permits you to build a char past the villians in the story line and turn the Named Mobs into lemmings, and your GM has to constantly up the mobs, you may have some issues. For at some point the common man npc looks less and less real and less dangerous and more window dressing then anything else and you start to lose the feel for the reality of it all. Now maybe this is more a player issue then a game issue or maybe its both. I am not sure exactly yet. Its entirly possible that no side is truely correct and in the end it comes down to, to each their own.

mfb

Mar 11 2006, 06:31 AM

Post #179

Immortal Elf

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QUOTE (Deadjester)

So if the system permits you to build a char past the villians in the story line and turn the Named Mobs into lemmings, and your GM has to constantly up the mobs, you may have some issues.

indeed. however, the nice thing about a diminishing-returns system is that is becomes progressively harder and harder to keep up with the mobs. that, combined with SR's variable TN dice mechanic (which makes it so that even the most skilled characters have a hard time with tasks if you slap on a few modifiers), virtually ensures that it's possible to challenge just about any level of character. i've seen a character with around 5,000 very well-spent karma fight desperately for his life, in one game. granted, that's a rare occurrence--but the fact that it's even possible endears certain basic features of SR3 to me more than SR4.

Hida Tsuzua

Mar 11 2006, 07:11 AM

Post #180

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Brahm)

@Hida Tsuzua

Burning up the opponent's Edge isn't screwing the player. It is standard procedure. This goes for PCs and NPCs alike. It is like the "geek the mage" axiom. Besides it appears that the intention was for Mr. Lucky to burn through Edge all by himself, no additional help required.

Edge only helps with a roll if you get a roll. Mr. Lucky has a total of 5 Skills. Good g-d he doesn't even have Perception. If the GM decides he is ok with a flat game he can allow Defaulting at nearly any time, and Mr. Lucky will last as long as his Edge. However if the GM doesn't want flat PCs then they shouldn't be so generous with the Defaulting. I don't mean this as a special rule for Lucky, I mean this as applied generally.

Edge is cool, it is fun, and it is a great Skill supplement. But it runs out and it is not a Skill substitute.

If Mr. Lucky ends off by himself and is greviously harmed as a result of being denied a Perception roll, or some other roll, because of a consistantly applied ruling that isn't the GM screwing the player. That is the player outwitting himself and coming face to face with the downside of his own min-maxing.

Mr. Lucky can't even defend himself particularly well in hand-to-hand (only 2 Skill points + Reaction 6), and as written has somewhere between a light and a debilitating encumberance penalty (depending on how the GM totals that up) when he wears his armor.

Mr. Lucky is a two trick pony, shoot things with a handgun and roll Edge. Problem is that the second trick has only 8 charges to cover off everything he didn't take and very easily may not be available at the time it is needed most because he doesn't have the underlying Skill......unless the GM decides that a flat world with flat PCs is fine.

I agree that having players spend edge is standard use. However you'll likely have to be quite active to burn them or work at screwing edge out of him (for example limiting edge refresh rate) and you'll likely burn the rest of the team out of edge before then. Being built the way he is, he'll unlikely be using edge in combat and instead save it for major rolls when it really does matter. Does this happen faster than the refresh rate (which admittly varies between a game session or a day)? Likely not.

As for defaulting, you have every skill at start if only at 0. That's why incomptence is a flaw! Heck the skill readout for perception says "Default: Yes." The game itself says what skills should or shouldn't be defaulted to. So the GM isn't being generous with defaulting, you're being stingy. Do you have to have to be at least rank 1 in Computers just to use a mouse? Do you need to have a rank 1 in Pistols to hold an Ares Predator? Do you need Running 1 to run? Then how come someone needs at least Perception 1 to perceive something? You would have to do this all to everyone other player in the game to make this "consistently applied" who will also be lacking in many skills. And if you did do this, getting incompetence is great idea because you can't default anyways!

I will admit that the lack of Perception is rather odd choice. Personally I would have gone for it rather than hand-to-hand (for reasons I'll explain later). But he isn't totally screwed either way. First of all, perception is a skill that it helps the party as a whole. If one player spots the ambush, though commlinks, mindlink, radio, or whatever, they all know often in a fairly quiet manner.

But let's say, Mr. Lucky isn't so lucky and is by himself and he has to perceive a bird for whatever reason. Instead of going out of my way and following the book's design philosophy in the matter, I'll say he can default.

His max pool for this is 3. 4 Intuition -1 for defaulting. (If he had to see said bird he'll get +3)
Now let's compare this to other PCs in the book (who I assume are better examples of "rounded" characters). Their perception pools range from 2 (for the one fourth of characters who don't have perception either) to 8. I'll say the average is 5 to 6. So on average, he'll score about one success lower than most shadowrunner. He'll be roughly tied if his vision enhancers count. And if stuck in a "do this or die" scenario, he can spend a point of edge (which I assume most other characters would also do if this is case if they have enough edge which they'll run out of before Mr. Lucky), he now throws 8 more dice into the mix which is up there with the best of them.

As for hand-to-hand, I would think under most cases, it'll be better to shoot your enemy in melee and take the -3 hit to the pool. And if the guy takes your gun, pull out another one and shoot again. Even if due to modifiers he's "only doing" 10 or so dice, his enemy will be hurting. Unarmed would be useful if he's gunless, which should be rare. Even if he is, one of his teammate be it mage, Jackie Chan, or hacker can likely get one for him at which point he's back in town.

I will point out Mr. Lucky does and will require help from his teammates be it for protection when missing a pistol, perception tests, hacking, and dealing with spirits. However this is not an usual case for any character. Even character will have their weak spots, or otherwise they wouldn't need to be a team in the first place! In this regard, Mr. Lucky isn't that noteworthy and he's a great gun bunny.

But let us say Mr. Lucky's player "sees the light" and makes a more balanced character. There are two possibilities for this to happen. Either Lucky will survive to spend XP (which shouldn't be too hard) or he will make a new character. If he survives, he can branch out into things like perception or unarmed combat or anything he wants! Better yet, it'll cost a relatively low 4 XP to get the first rank which he'll get after one or two adventures. If he gets perception, his pool jumps to 5, likely within acceptable limits. He can do this to any skill that he doesn't have.

The other option is the player has to make a new character. He gets rid of Lucky and Aptitude: Pistols. He now have 30 BP to be more "rounded." He can buy 7 ranks of skills or get 3 in a skill group. Surely this will make him better! But look, he's only lost one point of edge (or 1/8 of his edge pool) and one point for pistols (or 1/18 weaker than he used to be). Mr. Lucky is the functionally the same but now he's supposedly more rounded. Even if he cuts down a bit more, he's still going to be high on edge and have a badass pistol skill. Either way, the problems still stands, he's damn good in one field with a good ace in the hole and to root him out you'll have to screw over everyone else too. Things can also get nasty if a team of Mr. Luckys get together (with different focus for their abilities). If you have to do that, as I said something's up either with the rules, game play, or the GM wanting to make the characters for the players.

tisoz View Member Profile	Mar 11 2006, 07:11 AM Post #181
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920	I wonder why Fastjack keeps getting brought up, too. What about Harlequin, especially the big showdown fight at the end of the Harlequin adventure where no PC is supposed to interfer because there is no possible way they could stand a chance against the masters. Sorry. With Attribute and Skill caps, I am sure someone can max out a biginning PC for blades. (Too bad blades is agility linked instead of strength linked,or a human should be better than the IEs by having a higher Edge. But got to make the PC elf to get that Agility bonus.)

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 11 2006, 07:27 AM Post #182
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	i don't harp on Harley because it's too easy to argue that, as an immortal elf, he's not bound by the standard limitations. again, that's a point in favor of a diminishing-returns system (to me): you can, if you really want to, have characters like Harley without breaking the basic rules (new magics/metamagics don't count). normal PCs will never get to have Edge Weapons 25, because they can't reasonably gain enough karma to buy it (and if they do, the GM can easily impose training times that make such an achievement impossible). Harley, though? dude's been around for tens of thousands of years--plenty of time to gain the karma and put in the training. Fastjack, though, is an example of what half a century of running the shadows turns you into. in SR4, it turns you into someone who is only marginally better than a well-designed starting character.

Brahm View Member Profile	Mar 11 2006, 07:35 AM Post #183
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006	@tisoz: Harlequin is not held back by the limits of mortal metahumans. Silly? Yes, well so are IEs. ;) Fastjack keeps getting brought up because: 1) It seems to be commonly forgotten or unknown that deckers are no longer just a one Skill class, so it is often assumed or asserted that you can be a best of the best decker at chargen. 2) Fanpro set the Availability too low on hacking Programs, Ratingx2 instead of Ratingx3 or Ratingx4, so a PC can start with all of them at maximum rating at chargen. At least Fanpro set the Availability of rating 6 Commlink upgrades above character generation. But not that much higher, the Rating 6 hardware isn't that expensive, and you can use Reality Filter to try get around that limitation anyway. 3) People assume Fastjack the man is no more than just raw decking ability, and that his abilities aren't at least a bit on the hyped side. 4) People like to latch onto heros and play them up and assign ungodly stats to them. See #3 and IEs.

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 11 2006, 07:50 AM Post #184
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	nobody--not even his own team, originally; certainly, nobody who's talking--knows Fastjack's meatbody alter ego. that's not the kind of thing you can hype.

Deadjester View Member Profile	Mar 11 2006, 09:29 AM Post #185
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	Would not a 5000 Karma char trivialize the common man to the point of absurdity or would you just have to esculate them to? How would one even relate to the npcs around them any more? In all my years of playing, when you have to start slapping on modifiers to keep up with the power of the char, that has always been a sign of a issues that will just keep growing as time goes by. Some games are built for chars to keep growing and the mobs along with them, most are set though to a certain point. Since it is a RPG, growing in skill is not the only option for play, you could freeze a char and still have as much fun if not more with the right GM/Story line.

mfb

Mar 11 2006, 09:43 AM

Post #186

Immortal Elf

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i don't slap on modifiers to 'keep up with' high-end characters. i slap them on when they are appropriate, and that is often enough to limit both high- and low-end characters, in SR3.

and, no, the 5,000-karma character is not someone who goes on runs 'normal' characters very often (though i'll note that the one time he did, he needed help to overcome the opposition). for the most part, he does background stuff, mostly on his own initiative. this works because of the play venue--i'm not saying that a 5,000 karma character would be easy to work into most tabletop games.

QUOTE (Deadjester)

Since it is a RPG, growing in skill is not the only option for play, you could freeze a char and still have as much fun if not more with the right GM/Story line.

i strongly disagree with this statement, which is probably one of the reasons i have such a problem with SR4--the developers agree with you. RPGs are not just an excuse to get into character and interact; they are games. part of the enjoyment, for many people, comes from the ability to make your avatar in the game better and more capable. freezing my ability to advance my characters would take a good bit of the enjoyment out of it.

nick012000 View Member Profile	Mar 11 2006, 11:40 AM Post #187
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398	Well, I'll just post this.

Brahm

Mar 11 2006, 02:09 PM

Post #188

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 11 2006, 02:50 AM)

nobody--not even his own team, originally; certainly, nobody who's talking--knows Fastjack's meatbody alter ego. that's not the kind of thing you can hype.

It couldn't be hype that nobody knows him? Or the assumption that nobody knows his meat body solely because of his decking skills. Nobody alive that is.

SR canon fluff is by it's very definition a mixture of truth, half-truth, misconceptions, misunderstandings, and lies. Fastjack reads like hype....or an IE, which is canon shorthand for carte blanche. Not to mention that authors left to their own devices tend to do wacky things.

*awaits persecution for uttering heresy against the Church of the Kewl NPC*

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 11 2006, 07:12 PM Post #189
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	if you want Fastjack's abilities to be hype, in your game, that's fine. but according to the game information that has been written about him, he lives up to his rep. not the fluff, not the in-character shadowtalk, the game information that tells the GM how to use him in games.

Deadjester View Member Profile	Mar 11 2006, 08:01 PM Post #190
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	MFB I can't fault you on what you are saying, its not based in logic therefor I can't argue it, its really about play style. Its a personal choice is what it comes down to so there is really no right or wrong in this. I have fun in both styles of play, the only time I have issues with a open style is normaly do to certain types of players who always want to take it beyond what ever type of game its ment for. Their idea is not about growth but about having numbers nobody else has which takes away from the rpg part for me. But with the right players, open or closed its all good with me. The only issue I really see with SR4 (for me) is that the skill max is to close to chargen and the combat formula is off (we fixed the combat formula, still thinking about skill max, 10+1 for a closed system looks more realistic to me).

Brahm

Mar 11 2006, 08:45 PM

Post #191

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 11 2006, 02:12 PM)

if you want Fastjack's abilities to be hype, in your game, that's fine. but according to the game information that has been written about him, he lives up to his rep. not the fluff, not the in-character shadowtalk, the game information that tells the GM how to use him in games.

Curious, have his stat's ever been published? Full or partial? Or is he just given the Plot Device power? It never came up because I don't bother with that sort of power of game. I might have come across them at one time, but I would have just tossed it as useless info.

If you are going to have lords over them all stats for him anyways then just give him stats than no PC can ever legally have. He's just so good it is like he isn't human, or metahuman.

If fact why bother to even have him roll at all. In the Matrix he is just another Harley, he does whatever he wants to do.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Mar 11 2006, 08:55 PM Post #192
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	well he is never given numbers, but i belive the target:matrix book given him superior or something like that ;)

Brahm

Mar 11 2006, 08:59 PM

Post #193

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Mar 11 2006, 03:55 PM)

well he is never given numbers, but i belive the target:matrix book given him superior or something like that ;)

I don't have that book, so what does superior mean in practice? The GM just takes whatever the PCs have and multiples it by 1.5?

eidolon

Mar 11 2006, 11:25 PM

Post #194

ghostrider

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"Superior" doesn't come from Target: Matrix, it comes from the Shadowrun Companion. Target: Matrix merely gives FJ's rating, which is Superhuman and Professional, not just Superior.

Atts and Skills: 3 or more points higher than the average atts/skills of PCs
Karma Pool: 3 to 4 dice greater than the average of the PC's Pools

QUOTE (SRC @ 84)

These NPCs are the best at what they do, whatever that may be. They are the cream of the crop, legends of the streets, spoken of with awe. Superhuman NPCs make good foils for reminding player characters of their own mortality and limits, or good adversaries for a group of very capable characters. Usually, a single Superhuman NPC provides an even match for an entire team of player characters.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Mar 12 2006, 12:43 AM Post #195
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	ugh, thats what i get from not checking the books before posting. sorry... funny thing with that entry is that fastjack will be weaker when he is up against a low level team, but stronger when up against a stronger team. what are the true stats? :silly:

eidolon View Member Profile	Mar 12 2006, 02:13 AM Post #196
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	That's just the point of the system. He's better than you. His "true stats", if you're using the rules given, are 3+ higher than those of the PCs. If you're not using the rules given, then you have nothing to go off of other than how you want him portrayed in your game. I have a feeling you guys are the same type of gamers that insisted that the gods have stats in D&D 3.x. ;)

b1ffov3rfl0w View Member Profile	Mar 12 2006, 03:39 AM Post #197
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 464 Joined: 3-March 06 From: CalFree Member No.: 8,329	So the smart thing to do, were you to "go up against" Fastjack, would be to hire maybe 5x or 10x(party size) Halloweeners or Humanis goons or crippled, retarded children to join your team, thereby reducing Fastjack's stats to around 4 or 5.

mfb

Mar 12 2006, 04:19 AM

Post #198

Immortal Elf

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QUOTE (Brahm)

If you are going to have lords over them all stats for him anyways then just give him stats than no PC can ever legally have. He's just so good it is like he isn't human, or metahuman.

perhaps they'll end up doing that, in Unwired or something (though, judging by Synner's comments, i doubt they will). as it stands, however, Fastjack's abilities have basically been retconned.

i didn't insist that the gods have stats in D&D 3.0/3.5, but i will say that the stats they got were amazingly crappy. the xp awarded for killing them (hey, they have stats, what else are you going to do?) is retardedly high, though. one of these days, i'll run a battle between a 30th-level character and a bunch of rank-0 giants. i can just about guarantee that the character will end the battle with half or more of his hp, and will have gained 10 levels or so. sigh.

Deadjester View Member Profile	Mar 12 2006, 05:13 AM Post #199
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	The stats for the Gods in DnD are the stats for their Avatars that walk the prim.

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 12 2006, 05:51 AM Post #200
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	not in 3rd ed. it was only in 2nd ed--and only really in Planescape--that gods became statless plot devices (they even changed the 'correct' term for them, calling them "powers" instead of "gods"). prior to and after that, gods themselves had stats and were killable. in 3rd ed, they're really, really killable. (see? it's not just SR4 i bash.)

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