SR3 vs 4 in Play - Dumpshock Forums

SR3 vs 4 in Play

Deadjester View Member Profile	Mar 12 2006, 06:03 AM Post #201
Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210	Hmm if I remember on a non lazy day I will have to look it up, I have all the books put away since I went back to SR Gaming.

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 12 2006, 06:13 AM Post #202
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	i wouldn't bother. Dieties & Demigods is the worst, most useless book WotC has ever put out. anyway. back on topic: SR4 is the devils from space. discuss !!

nick012000

Mar 12 2006, 06:27 AM

Post #203

Running Target

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QUOTE (mfb)

not in 3rd ed. it was only in 2nd ed--and only really in Planescape--that gods became statless plot devices (they even changed the 'correct' term for them, calling them "powers" instead of "gods"). prior to and after that, gods themselves had stats and were killable. in 3rd ed, they're really, really killable. (see? it's not just SR4 i bash.)

Pheh. The canon stats for deities are less killable than the stats for Great Dragons.

This is largely due to the fact that if you're fighting a DnD deity, he'll automatically go first (Divine Initiative Salient Divine Ability), and automatically kill you, and all of your freinds (Life and Death Salient Divine Ability). About the only way to survive that is to be a deity yourself, and there's only one canon way to do that: the Dragon Ascendant PrC.

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 12 2006, 07:18 AM Post #204
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	if the god has those abilities, yes. but it'd need to be rank 6 to have Life and Death, and gods only get a limited number of salient abilities. it's also worth pointing out that Life and Death can only be used once per minute; a party of epic adventurers will lose one member before annihilating the god. higher-rank deities are pretty tough, granted, but those rank 0 jotunheim aren't much tough than any other 20HD mob. an ancient gold wyrm would make mincemeat of one, much less an epic party. and for killing one of them, you gain enough xp to gain a new level, automatically. i'd rather play SR4 than use the Deities and Demigods book in a campaign.

fistandantilus4....

Mar 12 2006, 07:59 AM

Post #205

Uncle Fisty

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QUOTE (mfb)

i'd rather play SR4 than use the Deities and Demigods book in a campaign.

Thanks mfb. Sometimes you just make my night.

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 12 2006, 08:46 AM Post #206
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	heh. that really is intended as a (backhanded) compliment to the SR4 devs. i don't like SR4... but there are definitely worse products out there.

Brahm

Mar 12 2006, 12:01 PM

Post #207

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QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 11 2006, 11:19 PM)

QUOTE (Brahm)

If you are going to have lords over them all stats for him anyways then just give him stats than no PC can ever legally have. He's just so good it is like he isn't human, or metahuman.

perhaps they'll end up doing that, in Unwired or something (though, judging by Synner's comments, i doubt they will). as it stands, however, Fastjack's abilities have basically been retconned.

As it stands in SR3 he gets retconned for every game every time the PCs earn another 10 karma. ;) Of course having an NPC that is the bleeding edge for 40 years is going to lead to retconning.

It seems very likely that Unwired is going to add some more top end, even just through depth. That is just what supplement books do. There isn't actually a RAW top end to the Response for a node, there is just a top end for Commlinks and for general unstatted devices. Having a kick ass, non-portable node to run from would give you an edge all by itself.

QUOTE

Dieties & Demigods is the worst, most useless book WotC has ever put out.

Bite your tongue! A friend of my has an original D & D, the one with the Cthulhu and Melnibonean mythos. He still brings it to every 3rd Edition game. Obviously the numbers for the stats don't make any sense anymore, maybe never did I don't recall. But it is like having a pocket version of Tobin's Spirit Guide to leaf through and pick out the god or goddess you are going to offer up the still beating heart of you enemies to. :cyber:

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 12 2006, 12:22 PM Post #208
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	wasn't WotC! Unwired might help 'fix' Fastjack, who knows. i may pick it up, maybe not--i'd at least like to find out what kind of fluff they have for technomancers, even if i end up hating it (hey, what are the chances of that happening?).

Brahm

Mar 12 2006, 12:44 PM

Post #209

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QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 12 2006, 07:22 AM)

wasn't WotC!

Oh, you are talking about the 3e one? I just took WotC as being mistakenly put in for TSR, but now I see that is where you got those stats and rules from that you were talking about. It didn't even stick in my head that they had switched back to the Dieties & Demigods name from Legends & Lore. I'm not sure if I've ever even picked up the book to leaf through it, I can just feel from a distance that I should walk past. It just doesn't give off that old-school nakkid titties and copyright violation vibe. ;)

QUOTE

Unwired might help 'fix' Fastjack, who knows.

You can't 'fix' Fastjack if you want him to always be better than you. Especially if you are going to insist that this must be based solely on a relatively narrow band of stats. Even if that band is wider than in SR3.

Besides because of the nebulious SR3 rules of Skill average +3 (and averaged in what way?) it isn't clear just how much of his noteriety is due to social abilities, and how much is from his r33+ h@x0r1/\/G. After all he is at least partially a social creature, collecting up all sorts of data from people. Not just haxxoring it all. EDIT That is barring any specific particulars stating otherwise given in the Target:Matrix, which I obviously can't confirm since I don't have the book.

fistandantilus4....

Mar 12 2006, 01:08 PM

Post #210

Uncle Fisty

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QUOTE (Brahm)

Bite your tongue! A friend of my has an original D & D, the one with the Cthulhu and Melnibonean mythos.

Hastor! *oops* heee heee heee

Brahm

Mar 12 2006, 02:14 PM

Post #211

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 12 2006, 07:01 AM)

Bite your tongue! A friend of my has an original D & D, the one with the Cthulhu and Melnibonean mythos.

Hastor! *oops* heee heee heee

The proper spelling is with a 'u', so Hastur, although there are a few other alternate spellings. Some people claim that you have to be careful how many times you say Hastur, but I don't believe it. :proof: It is simply schoolgirl silliness to think that a single being could be so powerful as to hear each and every random utterance of a short little name like Hastu®§ª±ç%^6×Øæ <connection lost>

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Mar 12 2006, 04:13 PM Post #212
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	i just want to make a comment that its only the middle-eastern idea of god where we see a god that cant be killed. ragnarok sounds familiar? old gods could be killed. and therefor giving them killable stats are somewhat understandable, alltho it basicly shifts the game from a hack&slash fantasy into a god sim :P

mfb

Mar 12 2006, 05:31 PM

Post #213

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QUOTE (Brahm)

Besides because of the nebulious SR3 rules of Skill average +3 (and averaged in what way?) it isn't clear just how much of his noteriety is due to social abilities, and how much is from his r33+ h@x0r1/\/G.

yeah, i've never been a fan of using SR3's "better or worse than you by X" system for important NPCs. for one thing, it often clashes with the specific game information on the character:

QUOTE (Target: Matrix page 126)

There is nowhere [Fastjack] cannot go, and almost nothing he can't do inside the Matrix.

Halabis View Member Profile	Mar 12 2006, 06:55 PM Post #214
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773	I cant read. NM

Brahm

Mar 13 2006, 05:15 AM

Post #215

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QUOTE (mfb)

QUOTE (Target: Matrix page 126)

There is nowhere [Fastjack] cannot go, and almost nothing he can't do inside the Matrix.

Cherry node to work from, top shelf hacking skills, Etiquette(Matrix)/Negotiation, and a contact list that looks more like a public phone book should get you there. The contacts would be for letting you in the backdoor with a proper key instead of a prybar of the hard to get in places. He knows everyone and everyone knows him, and if they don't he supplements cream of the crop decking with social engineering (Con I guess).

Cain

Mar 13 2006, 09:30 AM

Post #216

Grand Master of Run-Fu

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QUOTE

However if the GM doesn't want flat PCs then they shouldn't be so generous with the Defaulting. I don't mean this as a special rule for Lucky, I mean this as applied generally.

Defaulting *is* the standard rule; you can generally default under most circumstances. There's nothing generous about it, you're just playing fair.

As far as "flat PC's" go-- any experienced gamer will tell you that it's the "balanced" characters that are usually the most bland and flat. Some of the best roleplay comes when you take an aspect of yourself, and take it to an extreme. If you, as a GM, are forcing players to take characters without these extremes, you're really cutting down on roleplay. I understand that some people prefer GM-Railroaded, cookie-cutter rollplay; but there's a lot of people who like to merge the numbers and concepts to create actual characters, instead of a page full of stats.

I'd rather take the most munchkinized combat monster than a well-rounded character any day, provided that the combat monster is coming in with an excellent character background and a player who's willing to roleplay. The most important rule is to have fun-- and roleplaying is what brings out the fun in a RPG.

QUOTE

Mr. Lucky can't even defend himself particularly well in hand-to-hand (only 2 Skill points + Reaction 6), and as written has somewhere between a light and a debilitating encumberance penalty (depending on how the GM totals that up) when he wears his armor.

Umm... you really should read that again. He has Unarmed Combat 2 (Martial Arts), which when combined with his Quickness of 7, totals to 11 dice. Not only have you gotten the numbers wrong (the reaction is off, as well), you've forgotten what the linked attribute is. Quickness is the linked stat for just about every combat skill, not Reaction. How did you miss that? No wonder why you think all stats are created equal; you must not be using the right ones at the right times.

And the encumberance penalty? That only applies when you're wearing more armor than Body x2. An armored jacket is 8/6, Mr. Lucky's Body is 4. 4 x 2 = 8, so no penalty. Math is a good thing. 8)

QUOTE

Curious, have his stat's ever been published? Full or partial? Or is he just given the Plot Device power? It never came up because I don't bother with that sort of power of game. I might have come across them at one time, but I would have just tossed it as useless info.

According to the skill chart on p 109, Fastjack has a level 7 Technical skill (presumably Cracking). However, without doing a serious amount of GM handwaving on his gear, he's going to be rapidly matched by well-made starting characters. (According to Target: Matrix, Fastjack builds his own equipment and programs his own gear. Given five years since the new matrix came into place, there's only so much anyone could have reasonably done. You could push it, allow him to have rating 15 everything, but that's definitely NPC special treatment.)

QUOTE

That is barring any specific particulars stating otherwise given in the Target:Matrix, which I obviously can't confirm since I don't have the book.

T:M makes it abundantly clear that it's all due to his skills. He goes toe-to-toe with several other world-class deckers in the book (Bash, for one, the security decker for the Denver Nexus) and comes out on top. The concept of a "new to the concrete jungle" shadowrunner even being in his general neighborhood is difficult to swallow.

nick012000 View Member Profile	Mar 14 2006, 12:30 AM Post #217
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398	Umm... Read the book. You use Agility + Melee skill to attack, and Reaction + Melee skill to defend.

Cain View Member Profile	Mar 14 2006, 08:41 AM Post #218
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178	My bad, I thought he was talking about attacking. His numbers are still wrong, though.

Brahm

Mar 14 2006, 08:52 AM

Post #219

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QUOTE (nick012000 @ Mar 13 2006, 07:30 PM)

Umm...

Read the book. You use Agility + Melee skill to attack, and Reaction + Melee skill to defend.

Plus 1/2 * Impact 6 + Non-conductive 6 = 9 which is greater than 8. Emcumberance, so a penalty to Reaction. And that is the kind ruling. I suppose some GMs might let Mr. Lucky slide on that, but others might also work in the Chemical Protection 6 rating. I don't really see the need to pile on though, the jacket just becomes even more obviously someone looking for a fight instead of a fashion statement. But really, that isn't the character's biggest problem because he just needs to get some lighter armor or tone down the extra stuff on the jacket to rating 5.

Brahm View Member Profile	Mar 14 2006, 08:56 AM Post #220
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Synner

Mar 14 2006, 09:40 AM

Post #221

Runner

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QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 13 2006, 09:30 AM)

According to the skill chart on p 109, Fastjack has a level 7 Technical skill (presumably Cracking). However, without doing a serious amount of GM handwaving on his gear, he's going to be rapidly matched by well-made starting characters.

(According to Target: Matrix, Fastjack builds his own equipment and programs his own gear. Given five years since the new matrix came into place, there's only so much anyone could have reasonably done. You could push it, allow him to have rating 15 everything, but that's definitely NPC special treatment.)

Consider Fastjack with the following skill load out:

Cracking Group
Cybercombat 6
Electronic Warfare 6
Hacking 7

Electronics Group
Computer 6
Data Search 6
Hardware 6
Software 6

Plus software relevant in the Rating 7-8 range (bought, tweaked or designed from scratch). Amped up commlink with higher than chargen ratings in all stats (bought, tweaked or designed from scratch). Now figure in a huge list of contacts, add in a million-nuyen gear and computer/electronics shop... Now compare that to a starting character.

Brahm

Mar 14 2006, 09:56 AM

Post #222

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QUOTE (Synner @ Mar 14 2006, 04:40 AM)

Plus software relevant in the Rating 7-8 range (bought, tweaked or designed from scratch). Amped up commlink with higher than chargen ratings in all stats (bought, tweaked or designed from scratch). Now figure in a huge list of contacts, add in a million-nuyen gear and computer/electronics shop... Now compare that to a starting character.

You missed the Positive hacker centric Qualities. ;) With those and Attributes applicable to a VR decker maximized even the most focused 400 BP character needs a minimum of nearly 300 karma to reach that.

You expect Unwired to allow custom Commlinks by RAW above 6? I definately expect to see non-portable nodes, or even man-portable backpack nodes with that kind of Rating and higher. I just wasn't really expecting regular size commlinks Response to rise.

nick012000

Mar 14 2006, 11:33 AM

Post #223

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QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE (nick012000 @ Mar 13 2006, 07:30 PM)

Umm...

Read the book. You use Agility + Melee skill to attack, and Reaction + Melee skill to defend.

Plus 1/2 * Impact 6 + Non-conductive 6 = 9 which is greater than 8. Emcumberance, so a penalty to Reaction. And that is the kind ruling. I suppose some GMs might let Mr. Lucky slide on that, but others might also work in the Chemical Protection 6 rating. I don't really see the need to pile on though, the jacket just becomes even more obviously someone looking for a fight instead of a fashion statement. But really, that isn't the character's biggest problem because he just needs to get some lighter armor or tone down the extra stuff on the jacket to rating 5.

I don't think those modifications count towards encumbrance, just the armor.

Brahm

Mar 14 2006, 11:45 AM

Post #224

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QUOTE (nick012000 @ Mar 14 2006, 06:33 AM)

I don't think those modifications count towards encumbrance, just the armor.

The RAW isn't particularly clear on that. It is open to interpretation, and it certainly does make sense IMO from a visualization point of view. Especially if multiple types of protection start getting layered on.

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 14 2006, 02:23 PM Post #225
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	if by "isn't particularly clear" you mean "doesn't mention anything of the sort, at all, anywhere", then you're right.

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