 SR3 vs 4 in Play |
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 Mar 14 2006, 04:35 PM
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#226
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006  |
You finally bought SR4! Or is that going off a several month old fuzzy memory of a partially completed document? :( No, it doesn't explicitly say that you include non-conductivity in the calculations. Nor does it explicitly say not to. But it is close enough in spirit [EDIT]and letter[/EDIT], and certainly helps curb some of the silliness. |
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Mar 14 2006, 05:23 PM
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#227
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
You can reach similar dice availiable with a starting character and appropriate specializations. Still not as good, but too close for Fastjack to be a living legend. A starting otaku with a good Threading roll can easily close what little distance remains, making them virtually equal. As far as the commlink and programs go, the problem is that the SR4 base book doesn't really support anything with a rating above 6. In order to have a program of 6 or better, you need a System of 6 or better, yes? And in order to have a System of 6 or better, you need a Response of 6 or better. Problem is, in order to build a Response chip, you need to spend half of its value in parts. And the chart for prices only goes up to rating 6 (p 240). By canon, you can't build a Response chip that fast, which means you can't have an effective system (or any other program) that high. As a NPC, Fastjack is certainly entitled to a exception; but that's what I meant by GM handwaving. He'd only keep his Legendary status because the GM is using special-case rules.
Gotcha. You're only applying it because you can't figure out any other way of dealing with a well-optimized character. Yup, no GM Railroad tactics for you! :P |
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Mar 14 2006, 05:30 PM
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#228
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 23-October 05 Member No.: 7,882 |
Can anyone tell me what this thread has warped into?
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Mar 14 2006, 05:33 PM
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#229
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Mostly the Cain tries be a min-max weenie, and complains that SR4 lets him, but then whines when it is suggested that a GM would bring the game back in line using an alternate reasonable intepretation of the rules thread. ;) EDIT You might have been better off just using the Search button and blowing out your brains that way. In any event don't bother read past maybe the second page of the thread. Welcome to Dumpshock! |
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Mar 14 2006, 05:52 PM
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#230
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Thread drift happens. Right now, two things are happening: Synner is trying to show the difference between a legendary character and a starting one; and the rest of Dumpshock is trying to help brahm become a better GM. He apparently doesn't know how to handle a powerful character without resorting to GM-Hammer tactics, screeches insults when faced with logic, makes up rules to apply on characters he doesn't like, has mistaken skill lists for character development, and seems to have a poor understanding of the difference between rollplay and roleplay. Dumpshock has seen worse than him, so we've still got hope that he'll learn something. Of course, with his attitude towards Dumpshock in particular, I have to wonder why he's even staying. It can't be for the self-inflicted humiliation; and he boasts about how he knows the rules so well, in the face of all availiable evidence. If he doesn't think he needs us, why is he here? |
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Mar 14 2006, 06:58 PM
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#231
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Specializations go both ways. I could have used specializations on Fastjack's skills list above just like I could have used Hacker Qualities. I simply presented a non-tweaked baseline for comparison with a non-tweaked starting character. Whatever you put in your tricked out starting character, you can also give Fastjack (and more since as an NPC he isn't limited by chargen limitations).
Have you actually tried this? Threading is not all its chalked up to be if your GM is playing by the rules. What makes TMs powerful are sprites, but then again Fastjack didn't earn his rep against TMs (not that they're that common to begin with) so the case is mute.
I don't see a problem. SR3 didn't allow anything above Rating 6 in the BBB either, SR4 just didn't have the space for it anyway.
All this means is that by the options available in the BBB only allow up to Rating 6. This doesn't mean Unwired won't expand on that - actually I can guarantee that it will. All you're saying is you have problems with the growth and development limitations/options in the core book - a book tailored for people starting in on SR4. No problem with that. More options will be in available in the advanced rule books for those who want them. |
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Mar 14 2006, 07:08 PM
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#232
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
In fact, it did.
Given that the core book states there might exist ratings above 6 in R&D... |
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Mar 14 2006, 07:11 PM
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#233
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
at chargen SR3 did not, it only had them in there so people had something to use after chargen.
SR4 looks like it didnt have much room for stuff beyond chargen given how much it covers (initation, technomancers, new matrix and drone systems). hell, even the paracritters are back (something i realy missed in the SR3 BBB). |
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Mar 14 2006, 07:15 PM
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#234
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Only if you assume 'armor modification rating' = 'armor rating'. And that certainly isn't in the spirit of anything.
Indeed.
SR4 has many things beyond chargen, and even pointed out there may be better ratings. That doesn't change the scale at all, which ranks a rating of 6 highest-end, and anything above that rare, potentially experimental stuff. |
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Mar 14 2006, 07:24 PM
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#235
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
your equaling the skill scale with device ratings? i dont see the logic in doing that...
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Mar 14 2006, 07:29 PM
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#236
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, no - though, given the streamlined setup of SR4, for ratings ranking 1-6, that would be a good estimation.
Look, there's a table for Device Ratings on p. 214, which neatly describes the meaning of a given rating and shows examples. ;) |
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Mar 14 2006, 07:36 PM
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#237
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
damn, i should have known there was something like that in the book. looked in the index, nada. looked in the gear section, nada...
hang on, thats why that damned index was pointing towards both 213 and 214... ok, im out of arguments. but i have a feel that synner is sitting on inside info about what will show up in unwired and similar, but cant talk because of a NDA or similar. hmm, there is one missing element tho. SOTA rules. sure you can be the best right now, but if you want to stay the best you have to keep up with the SOTA... |
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Mar 14 2006, 07:46 PM
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#238
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You mean info like p. 212 that general Matrix attributes range 1-6, though there may be higher ones somewhere out there?
Yeah, that's something I'd expect Unwired to elaborate on. ;) PS: If there's really some sort of micromanagment SR4 certainly does not need, then it's SOTA and Stress with rules. |
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Mar 14 2006, 07:49 PM
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#239
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Skills go up to 10, but you need the Aptitude to reach 7 and augmentation to reach 10. The core book does not have the augmentation unless you are cool with Adepts using Improved Ability while in VR. I don't really like that, especially when no such augmentation is available to mundanes, although admittedly that is partially a nostalgia thing on my part as RAW currently doesn't describe anything blocking it.
Is 'armor modification rating' text you made up, because I can't find that phrase in the PDF. Although those weird spacing characters can throw the Search off and I'm just missing it. Curiously enough the Helmets section does talk about modifying the rating of the armor they are worn with when calculating Encumbrance. Anyway, where I'm getting this from, with my own formatting for emphasis:
Taken very literally Mr. Luck would be more appropriately named Mr. Immobile, which is why I referred to my interpretation as the kind one. |
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Mar 14 2006, 07:50 PM
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#240
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
The math is pretty straightforward. A good otaku can expect about 4 successes on a Threading roll, and can use a sprite to sustain it for him, causing no penalty; and the drain on a four-success roll isn't that heavy. That kicks a starting complex form from rating 6 to effective rating 10, which is higher than what you suggested Fastjack would have-- and would more than even the differences in skills.
Incorrect. There are many items that go up to Rating 10, and MPCP chips went up to rating 12. However, that's a side point.
That *still* means that Fastjack gets special NPC treatment. I'll acknowledge that future rules might address this; but if a NPC is allowed to use rules as-yet-unwritten, that's GM handwaving. Certainly it sometimes makes for a better game, but that doesn't address the power balance issue at hand. And even then, Fastjack is still recieving special treatment. Given the stats you've suggested, Fastjack would have a very impressive 21 dice on all software and hardware tests. That averages to 7 successes per roll, which is very good. Let's assume that Fastjack would have everything at rating 10; not unreasonable, given the circumstances. However, he would first need to build a Response chip that powerful, he would have a Threshold of 20 (1 day); so he'd likely be done in 3 days. Easy enough. The Signal chip also goes just as fast; let's call it a week, assuming he takes a break for coffee. However, he then needs to code his System. That also has a threshold of 20, but the interval is 6 months. So, it'll take him 1.5 years to write the code. Coding his Firewall up to that level only takes half as long, for an additional 9 months. We are now at two years, three months, plus a week. Now we get into the actual programs. There are seven common-use programs, which Fastjack will be able to crank out in two months apiece. Then, we have fifteen hacking programs, which require three months apeice. (7 x 2) + (15 x 3) = 59 months, or just under five years. When combined with the previous time, Fastjack would have needed over seven years, two months in order to get his gear to that level. Which is fine; except it's been less than five years since the new matrix came into being. Suddenly, it's not possible for him to have built his legendary gear in the time allotted. We can assume that he scored better than average, but that starts to get into GM handwaving again-- we're sparing him the randomness of a roll, without also penalizing him in some way (e.g., buying successes). NPC's are entitled to carry gear that goes beyond the usual character starting limits; that's a GM's perogative. However, if the equipment is too good, then it's a case of NPC special treatment. Sometimes you need it to make your story run better; but if we need special treatment to make Fastjack legendary, then there's a problem.
So, you're overliteralizing a rule because you're determined to find a way to hurt a character, and then bragging about how kind you are? Wow, that's both a Straw Man and a Prejudical Language fallacy all in one. You're also skirting with Argumentum ad ignorantiam, assuming that because the rules do not say so expressly, your opinion must be the true one. Since even one fallacy is enough to dismiss an argument, you've just taken yourself out of this discussion quite effectively. There are a lot of GM's here who can help you learn to challenge your players without resorting to rules-lawyering and Orbital Cow Launches. It makes for better stories, and better gaming. |
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Mar 14 2006, 07:53 PM
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#241
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..for the exact moment he is taking electrical damage, if taking the rules literal, indeed. Just, as one dodges before takeing damage, that doesn't mean a thing. :grinbig: |
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Mar 14 2006, 08:02 PM
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#242
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Ya, the non-conductive armor protection isn't physically there until you get tasered. You wacky funster. :rotfl: |
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Mar 14 2006, 08:12 PM
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#243
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Wow...just...wow...
I bet when Fields of Fire came out, you started making people resist 2D damage (falling distance, deadly) every time they dove for cover. |
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Mar 14 2006, 08:17 PM
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#244
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
No, absolutely not. Those extra protections add extra bulk to the armor, notice the wording on some of those descriptions. They add extra layers. Expecting to max them out and not experience any problems if you have a lower Body is just silliness. Notice that I didn't add up 6+6+6 = 18, or even 6+6=12 as would be suggestive of that text. Instead I calculated it in favour of the wearer of the armor based on the actual protection it gave (which is not what you normally do for layered armor). |
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Mar 14 2006, 08:26 PM
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#245
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
But, you see, your ruling changes the armor mods from being occasionally useful for just about anyone, to being a complete screw-over for anyone but a troll.
i.e. there's no reason for anyone with a body of less than 8ish to get an armor mod in your game - they'd resist better by having the extra dodge dice. |
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Mar 14 2006, 08:29 PM
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#246
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
looks like all this debating boils down to how to read a set of numbers. and as the numbers represent abstract concepts rather then hard physics, we are more or less doomed to never agree...
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Mar 14 2006, 08:35 PM
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#247
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
What? No. By my ruling as long as your effective armor versus any particular type of attack did not exceed 2xBody you are ok. So in the case of Mr. Lucky all he has to do is lower those 2 upgrades to 5. I was just pointing out that if you wanted to be a stickler GM you could do what you are suggesting, and I agree, would be a pain in the ass, and greatly reduce the utility of those upgrades to most modest uses. Not something I would want to do. EDIT I would like to see having lots of different types of protection represented somehow though. But I don't really see how to do that by RAW without basically crippling the upgrades or limiting it to only one type of upgrade on a piece of armor. :( So to do that in a gaming friendly manner would require house rules. |
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Mar 14 2006, 08:39 PM
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#248
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
So, by your ruling, impact armot looses bulk and thus encumbrance when facing elemental attacks, so the modifications can pop up as bulk? :grinbig:
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Mar 14 2006, 08:43 PM
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#249
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Rationalization. You only use 1/2 the Impact to determine how it interacts with the upgrade layers in a encumbering way. The Impact armor is still there though, and it will encumber as per normal Impact armor if that rating exceeds 2xBody. Such is the price to be paid for being nice. If only I wasn't such a damn softie at heart. ;) |
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Mar 14 2006, 08:57 PM
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#250
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
In that case, I'd suggest dumping your previous ruling and going with something like: total armor mods cannot exceed that item's impact armor rating. so an armored jacket (6 impact) could have 2 non-conductivity, 2 thermal dampening, and 2 insulation, or some other, interesting combination of mods. |
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