 SR3 vs 4 in Play |
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 Mar 14 2006, 08:59 PM
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#251
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006  |
Probably not a bad idea at all. But I was keeping it RAW in this thread because Cain tends to squeal like a stuck pig even on RAW rulings, much less house rules. ;) |
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Mar 14 2006, 09:01 PM
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#252
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
eh...maybe if we harp on it enough, it'll get put into the errata ;)
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Mar 14 2006, 09:20 PM
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#253
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Ah, another insult instead of arguments. At least you've realized the futility of your position. But as Rotbart correctly pointed out, the armor bonus doesn't even factor in until the character's already been hit. So, you'd be using a house rule to attack a perfectly legal character, and only because you don't like the fact that the character has been optimized. At any event, house rulings are fine and dandy, but it's unfair to spring them on players. If someone brings in a character that was written according to the letter of the rules, the fair thing to do is to say: "Hey, we don't do things that way in my game, but you can take this chance now to fix things." You then suggest to Mr. Lucky's player that he modify his armor as follows, instead of crowing over how you are going to bend over his character for daring to think about an effective character choice. And instead of using it to cover an astounding lack of self-esteem, you acknowledge that your player's viewpoint is valid in the RAW, it's just that you want to run things differently. It's only the worst sort of GM's who wait in ambush, drooling over the chance to screw a character they can't otherwise challenge. Open communication with your players will vastly improve your GMing style. |
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Mar 14 2006, 09:31 PM
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#254
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
We could hope, but given history I'd expect if anything it'll show up in an entry in an FAQ. |
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Mar 14 2006, 10:05 PM
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#255
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291 |
I don't even know who I should be rooting for anymore! I do think this is a great example what was brought up earlier concerning hard caps vs. open ended human potential. If this thread proves anything it is that there is no limit to how high one can get their Incessant Arguing Over Rules Minutiae skill.
This thread went from a discussion of the relative pros and cons of SR3 vs. SR4 (in terms of playability) to an argument over the flaws in the new creation system, to an argument about caps on skills and abilities to (and I'm still unclear how this happened) and argument about how armor encumbrance works. Even sadder is the fact that I have read every post in this monster! What is wrong with me? It's like watching a train wreck. I will admit a silver lining though. The more I hear people talk about the super characters they can make, and the lengths GMs have to go to in order to reign in the excesses of their players, the more I thank my lucky stars that my group doesn't ever have these problems. I am obviously very, very, lucky to have such a group! :D |
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Mar 14 2006, 10:20 PM
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#256
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Just throw bigger, cooler things at them.
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Mar 14 2006, 10:53 PM
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#257
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Wrong tact. Throwing bigger 1-dimensional opponents justifies the player making even shallower characters next time around. Depth means taking different directions.
Instead have a few sessions that rationally emphasize the other end of the job spectrum. You can screw with virtually all one-trick ponies by sending them into various settings where they are supposed to provide support for information gathering (aka ganger club, a high class cocktail party or, best of all, a subgroup the character belongs to). Got prodigy with pistols? Either go into a close environment where they are almost guaranteed to go into melee combat or send 'em into the desert where they need range. Bruce Lee? Use a proteus or other metabeast that players shouldn't touch. Whiz decker? Recover data from a pre-Crash 1.0 facility. Relies on luck? Make the job last for several days so Edge used on all the piddly tests don't recover. My most long-lived SR character (went from Sr1->SR3) was not the "bestest" combat samurai; there were others who were better in their particular kind of mayhem. My samurai was the "go anywhere" guy. Tons of non-combat skills at 2-4 dice with the ability to throw 10-15 dice when breaking stuff and gear designed to let me survive the first encounter with those 15-18 dice foes who usually can't take it as well as they dish it out. Yeah, I would have used my Automatics skill more often than, say, my pilot(Rotorcraft) but the two times I flew helicopters had a radical impact on the way things would have otherwise turned out. (Once flying out of a rain forest after the NPC pilot got gacked by a grenade thrown by a PC and the other when a Plot Device killed the pilot of our chopper over Bug City.) |
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Mar 14 2006, 10:55 PM
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#258
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
You are into snuff films? ;)
Of the tables of regular players I have played at I'm likely the second most capable powergamer, at least in the top 3. Pay no attention to those many contenders not far behind, but who are definately behind, that would rate me lower! :D Since I tend to use my powers for Good and not Evil, and the guy I judge as number one is a mostly selfnulifying Loonie, I can't say I see this problem a lot myself. I tend to play with people that are child-like as opposed to childish, so there is a heathy dose of good sense and fun floating around to keep things in check. These are people that largely have a common understanding of the type of game being played. Communication is usually pretty good. The #1 Loonie usually floats ideas ahead of time, if for nothing other than the shock value of how twisted and screwed up a situation can be created by particular rule, especially with a particular interpretation of the wording. So that gives the GM fair warning so he can prepare and analyse the situation if it wasn't already noticed. Certainly none of them are like Cain complaining about being railroaded by the GM implementing a reasonable RAW that does not interfer with the game at large, and in fact tends to lead to a less perverted game world. Not that I haven't met people like that, it is just I don't play with them because it isn't fun to and there generally are lots of players out there that aren't like that to find and hook up with. The Armor upgrades issue hasn't come up that I've seen so far in neither games I have GMed nor played. However, inspite of what Cain seems to think, this wasn't something I just made up because of Mr. Lucky. I noticed it months ago, and considered the different ways to read the RAW and the one that gave the most sensible, pausible rule to match reality. If it did come up in a character before it was mentioned I wouldn't wait until the game was in play before mentioning it. Instead giving the player fair warning and outlining options, and letting other people know as well. I certainly wouldn't make their character have to deal with selling the armor and buying a replacement IC, and the cash loss that implies. |
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Mar 14 2006, 11:33 PM
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#259
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Several days? Try one good boat chase, 5 of 6 points gone buh-bye. :) EDIT Of course I don't consider screwing with overspecialized characters the primary reason for having a broader game, that is just icing on the cake. ;) The primary goal is to have an interesting game. If your game is feeling stale because each runs seems nearly indistiguishable from the the last however many you can remember, and you don't like that, then that's a good place to check. If you and the other players at the table do like the runs being very similar to each other, then by all means keep playing. Otherwise look around and see why you are not branching out. Is it because most if not all the characters are hyper specialized and comfortable there? Then shake it up and challenged them! |
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Mar 15 2006, 01:06 AM
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#260
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
what, do you not understand what the word "either" means? because that's what it says: if either of the character's armor ratings is higher than twice his Body, he takes penalties. does "either" refers to more than two options, in your version of english? maybe this'll clear it up: in the previous paragraph, it says that when wearing layers of armor, only the highest value for either Ballistic or Impact applies. why in the name of god would they be talking about just B and I values in one paragraph, but then switch over and start talking about all values in the next (while still using the word "either"!)
i'm not sure what else you'd call a rating that describes the value of an armor modification.
i might be misunderstanding what you're trying to say, but the SR3 BBB explicitly does allow for gear and programs higher than rating 6. the Fairlight has a rating 12 MPCP, and the program size table goes up to rating 14. |
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Mar 15 2006, 01:31 AM
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#261
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Please read further through the thread and you will find some applicable quotes regarding the armor upgrades, and how they add to the armor value. :P EDIT Or maybe you did and you didn't grok? Why would they not talk about the upgrades explicitly in encumberance an page 149? Because that is extra stuff about the armor value from elsewhere. SR4 cut out a lot of bulk, so it tends to have less redundant text referencing other somewhat related rules. It does make it tougher to notice/decode/determine specifics about interactions at times, and it does make things less explicit and more indeterminant. But that is the trade-off for getting rid of the extra wordage. So you broke down and bought the SR4 BBB, or do you have a research peon (James?) feeding you text from their copy? :) |
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Mar 15 2006, 02:07 AM
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#262
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
One thing I'll add, I think a better idea is to just use the total of the ratings of all the different upgrades as one value to compare to the Bodyx2 for encumberance seperate from the Impact and Ballistic rating. The Chemical Seal, having no rating, will use a value of 6 when calculating this. That allows you to have armored clothing, that has no impact value, with upgrade protection. It might look a bit bulkier, but I like allowing that. Or at least allow upgrades up to the greater of Ballistic or Impact, which I like a bit less. |
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Mar 15 2006, 02:47 AM
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#263
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
On the topic of FastJack: Has it ever been stated that he's a mundane? Noone's ever seen his meat, so it's entirely possible that he's a Hacker Way adept, with skills of 6(9) (and one at 7(10)). I know it's been stated that there are adepts who don't know they're adepts, which might explain why he never mentioned it. It would also explain why he gets the Immortal Elf "He does anything he wants to [in the Matrix]" treatment.
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Mar 15 2006, 02:50 AM
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#264
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
I think part of the reason why FastJack can basically do anything he wants to in the Matrix because he's been hacking, apparently, since Echo Mirage. Although...
I'm kind of loath to admit it, but I could see him getting down to Advanced Prime Runner skills in this day and age. I figure that having to unlearn everything from before the 2.0 crash has to hurt. |
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Mar 15 2006, 03:34 AM
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#265
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
re-read. they add to armor value against attacks of the specified type, and only against those attacks. your reading, if you weren't reading selectively, would make it so that armor encumbrance is modified according to what attacks, if any, the character is being subjected to--because that is the only time the character's armor value is (base + modification). |
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Mar 15 2006, 08:01 AM
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#266
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
And the Internet before that.
So did everyone else. |
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Mar 15 2006, 09:19 AM
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#267
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
When you actually do such a thing, I'll be glad to congratulate you. However, in the meanwhile, it's clear that you're using a twisted version of the rules-- that doesn't even exist in the RAW-- and can be better dealt with through open communication, an exchange of ideas, and fair play. For example, there's no such thing as a "less perverted" game world. There's only worlds as adjusted to individual playing styles. What you might consider to be perverted powergaming might just be business-as-usual for another group; as long as they're having fun, you've got nothing to brag about. And just because I'd find your emphasis on rollplay over roleplay to be boring, bland, and unimaginative; your habit of making up rules to suit your fancy to be the worst sort of GM favoritism and lack of control, and your repeated bragging about bringing out the Large GM Dildo on players who dare try something you don't like, that doesn't mean that you're not having fun with it in your own limited way. You're free to continue with it, if you like; we're not going to hold a gun to your head. Most inexperienced and novice GM's start off that way; eventually they tend to come around. Some might take longer than others, but it usually happens.
Hasn't come up? Perhaps because it's not a real issue? :D Look, you can give it up now. You tried and failed to find major weaknesses in Mr. Lucky's primary stats. You're now focusing on minor details to try and show how the whole character is flawed. You're making logical error after logical error in the process, and trying to cover up your fallacies by throwing insults instead of better arguments. Just back off, and admit you're wrong-- no one on Dumpshock can think any less of you for it.
In other words, screwing with overspecialized characters gives you personal enjoyment as a GM. Yup, we see a picture of absolute GM fairness and creativity now...
Enough of the shadowtalk across the books suggests that he's mundane. Certainly, his exceptional skills predate the Awakening. He's also definitely not an otaku, since he was the one who helped them reveal themselves to Shadowland (in the Denver boxed set).
Yeah, that's the whole point. There's no way that a starting character should even remotely be able to match a decker with that kind of experience. However, you can easily start the game with an identical Hacking skill; and if you're a technomancer, you can even use Threading and Sprites to give yourself more dice that Fastjack could have without GM handwaving. |
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Mar 15 2006, 01:26 PM
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#268
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Well, when the Awakening hit, lots of people suddenly got magic powers. Fastjack would have been 12 at the time (and if he was a hacker back then, he probably wasn't much more than just another script kiddie), so if he is an adept (knowingly or otherwise), he would have awakened then or a little bit later (magic usually surfaces at puberty). And lots of adepts don't know they're adepts. So, I suppose it comes down to what sort of implications of his mundane-ness we're talking about.
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Mar 15 2006, 02:38 PM
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#269
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
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Mar 15 2006, 03:44 PM
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#270
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291 |
I think the best way to avoid having starting characters be as good as Fastjack is to not make starting characters that are as good as Fastjack. I actually don't have any problem with a system that allows me to make a character that is within spitting distance of the best, because I do not have to make him that good if I don't want to. If you want to make a "street level" hacker, just give him more threes in the relevant attributes and skills. He's pretty good (a professional if you will) but he still has alot of room to grow. If you want to make an amazing hacker that can almost match the best of the best, blast those skills and attributes up to teh maxxorz.
I can't really fault a system that let's me make either type of character, if a group thinks it's bad to make really powerful starting characters, it is the group's responsibility not to make them. As it is right now, you can make more street level or badass characters as you like. Where's the problem? |
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Mar 15 2006, 04:43 PM
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#271
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
The problem isn't that SR4 allows you to deliberately weaken a character. The problem is that it allows you to create legendary-level characters, without major weaknesses, and expects that they'll be balanced right alongside the "rounded" ones. Suddenly, there's no point in playing anything but a minmaxed monster, since you won't have any significant minimums to worry about.
The system caps are supposed to be in place to prevent this sort of thing, but they clearly aren't working. They *are*, however, preventing a wide array of legitimate, balanced character concepts. In the meanwhile, we have all the disadvantages of a complex build-point system: long chargen times, extreme fiddliness, encouraging min/maxing; and we lose the big benefit: flexibility. |
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Mar 15 2006, 05:29 PM
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#272
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291 |
But there is a point to playing non minmaxed characters. And the point is that you think that these types of characters are bad. I agree, playing uber-badass, super twinked out characters is not my idea of a good time. I prefer to make a character that is pretty good at his thing, and can develop from there. However, I don't think it is the desingers job to keep you from making the super-amazing, ninja monster with no weaknesses. Frankly, if that is the kind of game you like, then that's what you should play! Pass out Panther Cannons at Stuffer Shack if that is the game that let's you and your friends have a good time. That being said, I do agree that some of the caps in character creation are silly. If someone wants to have sixes in 8 skills or 350 BPs worth of attributes I am not going to stop them. I suppose some sort of thing like that is necessary to allow tournament play and such, but my group just merrily ignores them and we make whatever kinds of characters that we all agree are reasonable for the campaign we are playing in. (Currently a fairly gritty "street" campaign, although we have started to graduate into "real" shadowrunners.) |
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Mar 15 2006, 05:30 PM
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#273
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
Brahm, i can't help if your misreading of the rules leads to insanity.
on the contrary, it very much is their job, if they're marketing their game as being gritty and more street-level. |
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Mar 15 2006, 05:45 PM
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#274
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
The customizability and complexity of a game system is directly proportional to its potential entertainment value and its potential vulnerability to exploitation.
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Mar 15 2006, 05:49 PM
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#275
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah, but you don't even have to exploit SR4. you just follow the basic creation rules, no special tricks or haxx0rz.
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