SR3 vs 4 in Play Options

[Azralon]

Right; and it's up to your GM and gaming group to determine what qualifies as a "useful synergy" or an "exploit." It's up to that same group to declare at what point a character is "minmaxed" or "well-built."

The smirkable thing to me is that some folks on these forums are of the opinion that SR4 starting characters are too weak, while others have the opinion that SR4 starting characters are too strong. Obviously the two are mutually exclusive, but that's okay because they're just opinions.

Reminds me of the George Carlin bit: "Everyone who drives slower than you is a moron, and everyone who drives faster is a maniac."

[mfb]

that, to me, slaves the game part of the game too much to the roleplaying part. i shouldn't have to limit my chargen simply because i don't want to be able to compete with high-end NPCs. high-end NPCs should be high-end enough that i don't have to worry about it. they should be something i aspire to, not something i start out able to compete with. and, as i said before, it seriously belies the dev's "more street level" thing. if the game is going to be more street level, i shouldn't have to houserule chargen to make it so.

[Waltermandias]

I guess my main point is that you don't need to houserule chargen to not get powerful characters. It is up to you whether you make a powerful or a weak character. Just because you CAN take 4s with a couple 5s in all your skills doesn't mean you SHOULD do so.

[mfb]

like i said, i don't think i should have to limit my chargen simply because i don't want to compete with high-end NPCs. this is a game--a roleplaying game, yes, but still a game. having to gimp a character created using the standard chargen rules because he's too powerful really, really, sucks. it's like benching your best hitter in a baseball game because the other team's outfielders are bumbling morons.

[Brahm]

[Waltermandias]

I see where you are coming from, but look at it this way. Some people want to make a character that is crazy cool and can compete with the big dogs right away at creation. This system lets you choose whether you want to make a total badass or a guy who is merely good as you like. As far as I can see this system lets more people make the type of character they want to play. It sounds to me that a system that would please you would prevent more people from making the characters that they want. In my opinion the best chargen systems let everyone make exactly the type of characters that they want to play, and if that requires some people to restrain or "gimp" themselves a bit, so be it.

[Brahm]

[hobgoblin]

well people was asking for more grit after SR3, and nothing speaks grit like being mortal no matter what you do (face it, after some karma you where in theory untouchable in SR3)...

[mfb]

[Azralon]

[mfb]

no, i mean that, by default, it allows such characters to be created. as in, you don't have to houserule or use an optional rule to do it.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[mfb]

a bunch of standard-issue awakened tentacle hentai plants. there were enough of them that he was pretty much constantly at a +4 friends in melee modifier, and they all had a reach of 1-3. on the plants' turn, there were so many die rolls that is was more expedient to write a script to handle them all--i may be one of the few gamers to ever actually see a character make twenty counterattacks in a single pass.

[Geekkake]

I'm sure this has been voiced before in this thread, but frankly, I'm not going to read through 12 pages of argument that we're not even supposed to be having, according to the bossman. But, before a loudmouth American, I feel the need to weight in.

The main complaint I see about SR4 seems to be character generation. What's funny, to me, about these complaints is that character generation, like nearly everything else in the game, is completely malleable to suit a particular group. You don't like 400 BP? Think it makes your character too weak, you wanna get right into high-stakes plots? That's totally fine. Talk to your GM. If your GM wants to give you 300, instead, you don't belong in that group.

Here's where, I think, the misconception comes in: If you don't belong in a particular gaming group, that doesn't speak badly of you or them. It just means you like to play a different game than they do. Which is fine. There's gaming groups all over, and even more in IRC.

I like a low-level chargen. I like to watch my character, and the PCs that I GM for, grow as professionals, and cohere as a group over time. I like to see them overcome nasty odds by using their brains, before they can rely on vast networks of contacts and high stats and big, bad guns and skill lists. But not everyone wants that. And that's cool.

For all my hemming and hawing about hating min-maxing, cursing super-specialists and tormenting street sams, I have nothing against that type of game, or that type of player. It's just not appropriate for my troupe. And I'd be happy to refer you to a group that you'd fit right into.

[snowRaven]

As for character creation in SR4 vs. SR3:

From my experiences it is easier to make someone who is practically the best in an area in SR4 (since that is impossible in SR3), but it is also easier to completely gimp your character and make them really bad.

In short - SR4 has a much greater span on the skill-level of the character you can make, for good and bad. You can make a better all-round character, and a better expert character, and a looser that is even more of a loser.

So, it all comes down to one question - is it necessarily a bad thing to be able to have tarting characters compete with the best in their one chosen field of expertise - at the sacrifice of being something of a one-trick pony?

[Geekkake]

[Brahm]

[mfb]

you don't have to be a one-trick pony to dominate your field and still have your bases covered in other fields.

Geekkake, while you have a point, the issue at hand is the default setting rules. yes, anybody can modify them for their own games, but modifications simply aren't what's being discussed.

i'd also like to say that chargen is not my biggest issue with SR4. my biggest issue with SR4 is, for lack of a better term, the lower resolution of the gameplay overall.

[hobgoblin]

[Brahm]

[mfb]

yeah. 5, 6, or even 7 in your main skill and attribute, 3s and 4s in a few other areas, maybe a few 1s and 2s if you have spare points after buying some high-end gear and 'ware (if you're not Awakened). you'll rock out with your cock out in your main field, and won't have any major weaknesses in other areas.

[eidolon]

@ the idea that it took an entire new edition to reintroduce "grit" to the game: :please: :silly:

[Brahm]

[mfb]

since when do you need every single weapon skill to kick ass in a firefight? hell, Ghosts and Red Sams only have the Firearms group at 5, and they're supposed to be the biggest and baddest and scariest.

[Brahm]