 SR3 vs 4 in Play |
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 Mar 16 2006, 06:16 PM
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#326
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006  |
There are a lot of people saying a lot of things. :) There are indeed folks that like the ability to have that really high Skill. Me, I'm fairly indifferent to that, one way or another. However jumping from one PC having one really high Skill to that PC being overpowered is where you fall down. I'm arguing that that PC could be overpowering if the GM structures their game in a way that turns the light away from the flaws and towards the strengths. Whether the highly specialized PC being 'overpowering' in the game good or bad is a subjective thing, and some people will like playing that game. Good on them. But it is still a choice the GM, and the players, make. Intentionally or not. If they don't like the results of a given choice they should make a different choice in how to run the game. |
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Mar 16 2006, 06:17 PM
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#327
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Target Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 13-March 06 Member No.: 8,367 |
So, you're arguing over the semantics of the word "overpowered"? Go over all my posts and swap out "overpowered" for "1337" or "uber-badass" and we'll call it good, then.
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Mar 16 2006, 06:21 PM
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#328
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I'm arguing that the highly specialized 400BP PC tends to have serious flaws. If the GM doesn't turn the light on those flaws, and highlights the PCs strong points then the character is going to rock through the game. Of course if they want that kind of game I'd recommend thinking about bumping up the Build Points to 500 and then broadening the scope of their game. But not everyone likes a broad game. EDIT Likewise if they want a narrow game and lower starting Skills they should think about dropping the BP some and removing the choice of starting Skills above 4. Maybe even above 3. |
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Mar 16 2006, 06:55 PM
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#329
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Octopoid has a point. Further debate is pretty useless, since it's hit a brick wall.
Comparing Mr. Lucky and any character is a waste of time without using a particular game's Edge refreshment rate and typical number of Tests as reference - something that is ultimately contingent on each group playstyle. What looks great on paper would be useless in the game I run (I should know, we tried a high-Edge character in playtesting and their Edge didn't last more than halfway through the adventure -On The Run- and he went down at the very start of the final shootout). The same problem extends to Incompetencies (Mr. Lucky's would not pass the GM approval phase of chargen in my game) and Defaulting (only goes so far in my game too, I already make life hard enough for normal characters by offering up all sorts of unexpected Tests. Combine that with a slow Edge refresh...). I make no concessions, I don't tweak something I have planned because a character doesn't have a necessary skill or is running low on Edge, it's up to the PCs to overcome obstacles whether they're stuff they're good at or stuff they suck at - I've been known to drop a team of uncouth mercs with no social skills in a Grand Tour party because they chose to accept a bodyguard mission. This means that there's almost no common ground to debate. As for comparing Fastjack and "normal" characters, there really isn't much point in continuing that debate either. It boils down to things contingent on how particular groups play the game and what's appropriate for one is not appropriate for another. In my game, a good hacker is forced to use every one of the electronics and cracking skills at which, on average, he'd be at least a couple of dice behind the Fastjack I posted previously. Furthermore he'd take a 300+ karma to reach that Fastjack's level. To me that (and a significant side helping of accumulated Edge) is more than enough of a difference between an elite hacker character and a legend, for others it isn't. Debating without common reference quyickly becomes unproductive. |
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Mar 16 2006, 07:06 PM
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#330
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
You already lost this argument. You don't need to keep digging yourself into the hole. Let's see what you're trying to say:
The Incomptences are perfectly legal by the RAW, although we could swap them out for any other set of skills that don't allow defaulting anyway. As I demonstrated in the comparison vs. the street sam, Mr. Lucky isn't going to be defaulting anymore than anyone else. In the same vein, his stats are high enough that he doesn't need to rely on Edge more heavily than everyone else. Of the archetypes in the BBB, 25% of them don't have the Perception skill. Meaning that it's useful, but not essential-- the same percentage of characters lack the Dodge skill. Your response has been that you won't allow those characters to default, for no apparent reason than because you want to punish the character. The RAW makes it clear that characters usually get to default, so your argument boils down to this: "Your character won't work because I'm going to GM HAMMER him into oblivion! Wah!" Furthermore, when it comes to determining surprise, it's not a Perception test that matters-- it's an Initative test. Mr. Lucky's initiative is high enough to make up the difference. Your other argument-- that the top point of Edge is worth less than buying Perception at chargen-- is equally flawed. In game, it only takes 10 karma to gain Perception 2 (Visual). The top point of Edge is worth 24 points. Given a typical karma award of 5 per session, in two weeks Mr. Lucky will have an equal Perception skill, while your Mr. Bland will still be saving up for something useful. So, you don't know anything about optimizing characters, and you don't know how to handle optimized characters without resorting to blatant GM abuse. That's fine-- there are many skilled GM's here who can teach you how to get over these serious GM problems. You've got nothing to be embarrased about, there have been a few worse GM's who've come to Dumpshock and learned to improve. And now, I'll turn it over to you, for the feeble insult of the day! (Everyone note-- he won't actually pull out a real argument. His pattern is to make a lot of noise and insult people who show him his mistakes.)
Actually, that doesn't matter. Mr. Lucky won't be relying on his Edge any more than any other character does, so a slow refresh rate will actually favor him. The point is that he's no *worse* off than any other similar character, which can be shown.
In this particular case, Mr. Lucky would have an advantage-- the BBB sam only has Negotiation at 2 for social skills, while Mr. Lucky's Con (Fast Talk) would be more appropriate to the situation. Neither has Ettiquette, which would be the best, but that just means that at worst, they'll be doing about the same. Once again: the overspecialized character has no disadvantages.
Let's use another example, then. Michael Jordan is listed as having a skill of 7. What the game is saying is that a rookie player, fresh out of college, could be a perfect match for Michael in his prime. I can't see anyone matching the top-of-his-game Michael in 1 on 1, let alone a wet-behind-the-ears, no pro experience player. So, not only do we have a disconnect between the stated goals of a "grittier" game, we have an arbitrary limit that restricts characters from improving. A common background plot is for someone to have an archrival who's the best at a certain thing, and the character's goal is to be able to be better than them at it. Under the current rules, that's impossible to achieve. We've just destroyed a wonderful character background, loaded with potential plot hooks and story lines. |
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Mar 16 2006, 07:18 PM
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#331
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
That I should have given him credit for. I was just trying to clarify the particular brick wall hit. ;) .... moved Edge refresh rate questions to start an new thread .... |
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Mar 16 2006, 08:22 PM
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#332
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
On the contrary I can guarantee that with the number and variety of Tests I incorporate in my game Mr. Lucky will be relying on his Edge more than any other character does because he'll be consistently falling back on it for to achieve Thresholds on Defaults (since he has average pools of 3-4 dice in a variety of tests I throw at my players). But that's the type of game I'm running. I use the Thresholds straight out of the book and I can guarantee that (in my game) the character you've posted would have to spend Edge to actually perform on par with the rest of the team in every situation except combat (I will mention the character who ran out of Edge above only saw one firefight before running on empty).
You're conveniently overlooking the fact that none of the archetypes in the SR book are optimized. Would you like to compare SR3 archetypes with tricked out characters we could come up with? But that's besides the point, unless you were trying to convince someone of something I wouldn't allow you to use the Fast Talk specialization in the first place and in fact your lack of Etiquette would provide a negative bias/modifier going in. One skill doesn't cover all bases. At best he'd be on the same levle as the sam. In the same way that a hacker trying to get by with just Hacking in my game is definitely screwed (I make a point of using all the rules). Again it boils down to the game you play. I'll get back to your Michael Jordan example in a few minutes. |
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Mar 16 2006, 08:31 PM
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#333
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Had to get back to listening to some Quiet Riot? Well I'm an axegrinding piledriver Mother says that I never never mind her Got no brains; I'm insane Teacher says that I'm one big pain I'm like a lazer, six-string razor Now everyone together on the chorus! ;) |
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Mar 16 2006, 08:46 PM
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#334
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
sigh... and that same rookie basketball player will also be world-class at baseball, football, curling, hockey, downhill skiing, diving, swimming, the luge, ad nauseum, because it's all just the athletics skill group. (It's a game - in the interests of not making it unplayable, yes, things tend to get simplified.) An experienced anything is going to have numerous additional side and background skills, reputation, contacts, cash and toys that just are not available to rookies. Why do people keep trying to stat out "perfect" people using (slightly modified) chargen rules, then complain that a min-maxed character straight out of chargen is "too close"? Of course they're close - you're purposefully designing them that way! And this is still overlooking that, IRL, records do keep getting broken...someday someone actually will make Jordan's skills look obsolete (which in game systems usually means the guy with the latest splatbook massively overpowers everyone else - see RIFTS or the latest incarnation of D&D - not the champions of good game design.) |
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Mar 16 2006, 08:56 PM
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#335
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Let's take a look at that, then: Combat skills: We've established that Mr. Lucky is more than competent in that area. In fact, he's superior. Magical skills: None. Which is no surprise, since he's mundane. He's just as screwed as anyone else in that area. Physical skills: Mr. Lucky has Gymnastics, which helps on Jumping tests. He's also got Infiltration. Running and Swimming don't have Thresholds. You've got him on Shadowing, but that's an opposed test, and it doesn't have a threshold as a result. Escape Artist is an Extended test, so he'll be slower about it-- a disadvantage if he lacks time, but on an average roll, he can esacpe a set of containment manacles in 4 minutes. All the other skills have equipment that can assist, so he won't be disadvantaged if he's prepared with the right gear-- and there's a reason why I gave him 3 pages of gear! Resonance Skills. None. See Magical Skills. Social skills: Charisma skills are all opposed tests, so no thresholds apply. He's at a disadvantage, but he doesn't need Edge to get lucky, either. Technical skills: He has none. Which is a disadvantage, but most of them are Build/Repair or Decking related skills. He's not going to be much worse off than any non tech-head-- the decker should be handling most of the computer stuff. First Aid is a loss, but if he's the last one up in a firefight, First Aid isn't as much of a priority anymore. Vehicle skills: None, but he has an advanced Pilot and Maneuver soft for his primary vehicle. He can default and upload those into any vehicle he absolutely needs to operate; and even then, you don't need to default or even roll to operate a vehicle normally. According to the example on page 109, he's not any worse off than most basic drivers on the road-- in fact, he's slightly better, due to his high Reaction. He doesn't have an extensive vehicle skill list, but he's not a Rigger, either. He does have Incompetences in Pilot Anthroform and Aerospace; but first of all, you said you had issues with those, so I as a good player would have compromised on something else. Second, all the anthroforms are drones, which he shouldn't be operating in any case. Third, you can't default to those skills anyway. And finally, if he's the only one availiable to pilot the space shuttle, he's already screwed beyond reason. :D Bottom line: You can catch him off guard, but that screws with all characters equally. Overall, he's no worse off than any other similar character, and has a huge set of advantages in his own right. And he can easily get enough dice to meet thresholds in many circumstances, without resorting to Edge.
That's exactly the point. He's no worse off than the entire team of uncouth mercs you dropped into the grand tour. The lack of ettiquette penalty would be applied to everyone equally. He keeps all his advantages, and doesn't have any relative disadvantages. |
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Mar 17 2006, 10:15 AM
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#336
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Actually he's "more competent" than the sam in the base book. He's slightly behind the sam in my game, but only just (and then only in a firefight). He's got pretty much the same load out in cyber, and Mr Lucky has an edge if he uses Edge. Which is okay Mr. Lucky is a perfectly valid character concept - he's the "lucky" street sam. With a couple of tweaks he's a perfectly valid character build.
Pretty much yeah.
Okay. Let's have him do something a standard like scale a wall or climb a fence? No skill? Default means dice pool of 4. Threshold varies.
Specifically he has Infiltration 2 (Urban). Not bad, but it's specialized. Again in about a quarter of my runs he'd be unable to use the specialization, he'd still be able to get by.
No they don't, but they do have negative modifiers depending on terrain and environmental factors. When on a rain-slicked street or a rundown sidewalk in the Barrens and you're looking at a dicepool of 3-4 on a Default, 5 under normal conditions (not bad but not particularly better than any cybered individual).
No Threshold, but there are modifiers that impact any default Tests. For that matter, Mr Lucky is an easy target for being shadowed. Since you might be avle to use a Stealth skill instead of Perception you're screwed in that regard too.
Let's ignore the possible modifiers for a second, most of the time they'll cancel themselves out in the case of this character anyway. You've got 6 attempts (dice pool size) to get out of handcuffs needing to accumulate 5 hits with 6 dice per roll (Defaulting to Agility) - you're right you might just make it.
Nothing to add here.
You don't get Thresholds, but you do get dice pool modifiers. On average your dice pool is going to be 3 dice in most legwork - except at Fast Talking which it'll be 5-6. That's below par in my game which is legwork and investigation intensive.
Just like any other runner the need for Technical skills varies depending on the group's abilities. Impact also depends on the size of the group and their tactical approach to runs - again varies widely from game to game.
Any character can have what Mr Lucky has gear-wise, in fact my group uses a similar setup because the hacker decided not to go the rigger route and nobody has significant Vehicle skills. However, Mr Lucky is definitely weaker than every character with a Vehicle skill and the same tech.
Untrue. In my investigation and infiltration-heavy game he'd be defaulting heavily on Social Active Skills and probably just as much on Physical and Technical skills (and that's not even mentionning the impact of negative modifiers and Thresholds)- but as I mentioned I have no problem with the character you've designed as being balanced with everybody else - I have a problem with you implying he's better or on par with a full-blown specialist (and not the generic archetypes in the BBB).
The point being he's on par with them and not better (since he has no applicable advantages unless he uses edge and even then it depends on how much edge the other side has). He's far behind any face or social adept character but then he should be. |
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Mar 17 2006, 01:35 PM
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#337
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
Elf (30) B 3 (20) A 6 (40) R 5 (50) S 2 (10) C 3 (0) I 5 (40) L 3 (20) W 3 (20) Longarms 6 (24) Pistols 4 (16) Automatics 4 (16) Close Combat 3 (30) Athletics 2 (20) Etiquette 3 (12) Negotiation 2 (8) Infiltration 2 (8) Shadowing 4 (16) Software 2 (8) this leaves 42 points left over for resources and positive qualities. et voila: a character with 6 in his main attribute and skill, with no real weaknesses. |
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Mar 17 2006, 03:15 PM
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#338
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
nicely built and a sneaky use of the elf bonus there, now do it with max prime attribute
I would have gone for computer(actual use) rather than software(programming) Otherwise resonable build. |
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Mar 17 2006, 03:37 PM
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#339
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
drop a few skills, maybe a point or two of attributes, and he'll have enough points to get 7 Agi.
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Mar 17 2006, 03:50 PM
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#340
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Thanks for putting in the time, I appreciate that. That is the start to a nice character. Overall decent Attributes, and 15 Skills; a few 4s, a few 3s, and a solid base of 2s. I also like the choice of longarms over pistols, although Automatics 6, Pistols 4, Longarms 3, Heavy Weapons 1 (for an underbarrel GL) I think is another good way to go (EDIT Grenades are a bit beefier now, and without the Thrown Weapon or Heavy Weapons skills your character has a tougher time taking advantage of that). Of course no 7 Skill, and no maxed Attributes. Which is absolutely no surprise. Right now he's also about 8 dice short of the top end of Attribute + Skill, and needs some IP. Without IP the only thing he'd be dominating is who gets the next turn on the tetter-totter. 8) I've got some stuff to do today, but I can finish him off later if you you'd rather not. Were you thinking Adept, implants, or Adept with Synaptic Boosters? Also what where you thinking of for Edge? Right now he's only got Edge 1. |
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Mar 17 2006, 04:13 PM
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#341
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
*shrug* i was pretty much just showing that you can have maxed or nearly-maxed skill + attribute in your main area without being one-dimensional. make him a bit less well-rounded and/or pick out some flaws, and he could be maxed.
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Mar 17 2006, 04:20 PM
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#342
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
So you are trying to say that sort of almost nearly (but 8 dice short) maxed in a single Skill = dominating a field? Are you going to finish him, or do you want me to? Picking up those extra IPs aren't really that cheap. He's got a lot of stuff left to buy. |
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Mar 17 2006, 04:45 PM
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#343
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
he can outshoot a Red Sam or a Ghost. i see i forgot to give him the Dodge and Perception skills, so he'd probably want to trade out for a 3-4 or so in those, especially given his low Body. he can hold his own in melee, especially if you swap the skill group out for points in a single skill. WR-2 can be picked up for 6 points, less than buying 2 points of skill.
my point isn't that this guy is overpowered. my point is that, according to the skill ratings, he's one of the world's premiere shooters. at chargen. that's been my objection this entire thread. |
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Mar 17 2006, 04:54 PM
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#344
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Right now he's 8 dice short. Hell, he likely isn't even going to make the Tir national Unaugmented Olympics team. |
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Mar 17 2006, 04:56 PM
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#345
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you've lost me. where are the other 3 dice coming from?
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Mar 17 2006, 05:09 PM
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#346
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Maximum Skill is 6 + 1(Aptitude) * 1.5 = 10. Maximum Attribute is 7 + 1(Exceptional Attribute) * 1.5 = 12. Sorry, my bad. He is actually 10 dice short. EDIT BTW I just noticed he doesn't have any Perception. But just a point or two there should be fine, he has pretty good Intuition to back it up. |
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Mar 17 2006, 05:21 PM
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#347
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you may want to reread the rules. the maximum skill level is 6, or 7 with aptitude. period. that's why Fastjack's skill is 7, and not 10. that puts this guy, currently, 7 below the absolute awesomest. 5, if i trade out and go for chargen max. 5 dice is a significant amount, but won't make a huge difference overall. the listed NPC mooks (Ghosts, Red Sams) can hardly do better.
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Mar 17 2006, 05:24 PM
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#348
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
:? Having a Cain momment? Maximum modified Skill is 6 + 1 * 1.5. |
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Mar 17 2006, 05:27 PM
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#349
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
...
okay. stop what you're doing, open SR4 to page 264, and read the third paragraph under "Improving Existing Skills". |
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Mar 17 2006, 05:31 PM
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#350
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
:rotfl: Well since you have the book try page 109, bottom left. Anyway, gotta go. Later.
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