 SR3 vs 4 in Play |
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 Mar 17 2006, 05:37 PM
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#351
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
congratulations, you've discovered the modified skill rating. as in, the highest you can go with cyberware, adept powers, etcetera.
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Mar 17 2006, 05:43 PM
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#352
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Congratulations, you just joined the conversation. :rotfl:
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Mar 17 2006, 05:48 PM
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#353
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
The sam in your game has more than 18 dice in his primary combat skill?
That's what rope is for. Assisted climbing is worth +2 dice, so now he's rolling 6. Threshold varies, but it's an extended test, so as long as he's not rushed he's in no trouble. Assuming a standard 3 meter wall, he'll make it in two combat phases-- less than 3 seconds.
To a certain extent, this can be compensated for with gear. Medkits can replace a First Aid skill, Agents can replace a limited range of decker tasks. Agents are particularily good at the legwork phase of a run-- you wouldn't want them to do the run for you (although, if I'm reading this correctly, they're invulnerable to Black IC), but they can easily handle the prepwork. During the run, Mr. Lucky the combat sam wouldn't want to be tied up doing decking, anyway.
Well, naturally he'll be weaker than a dedicated vehicle specialist. That's not the point. No one can be a specialist in everything. As you pointed out, he's no weaker than the characters in your group.
And as you can tell, he wasn't designed as a investigation-and-infiltration character. If you're comparing him to a bunch of specialists in a dedicated game, that's a different matter entirely-- he's not going to out-ninja the ninjas, or out-face the faces, nor should he. But in comparison to other combat bunnies? He's better than them at his primary skill, is no weaker in any other area overall, and still has an Edge in case of emergency. No drawbacks as long as he's prepared. I *could* tweak the character to have a reasonable set of skillwires and activesofts, which would make matters worse. Suddenly, he can match the faces and ninjas, as well as the tech-heads. Maybe not all at once; but under the new rules, he can hold all his activesofts in his head at once, and only accessing them as needed. You won't be able to steal his skills unless you cut him open; and at that point, he's already screwed anyway. And Brahm? Maybe you should read your own posts, sometime.
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Mar 17 2006, 05:57 PM
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#354
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
congratulations, you're not paying attention. i'm talking about natural skill levels and advancement caps. i've been talking about that since my first post in this thread. the augmented maximum is completely unrelated to my point. |
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Mar 17 2006, 10:32 PM
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#355
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Mr. Lucky doesn't have 18 - he has 17. Enhanced Articulation does not support Combat Skills anymore. ;) And, BTW - there is no Dodge specialisation for Gymnastics, too. |
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Mar 18 2006, 03:40 AM
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#356
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
All possible specializations are not enumerated in the book. Is dodging something you can do with gymnastics? Yes. Then you can probably get a specialization to improve that subset of the gymnastics skill.
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Mar 18 2006, 07:27 AM
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#357
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
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Mar 18 2006, 07:52 AM
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#358
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
enh art in SR4 helps only with Physical skills--running, jumping, climbing, and the like. doesn't help with Combat, B/R, or anything else.
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Mar 18 2006, 08:30 AM
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#359
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Ah, okay. But I just realized that I hadn't added it in, anyway. Quickness 7 + Pistols 7 + Specialization + Smartlink = 18 dice.
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Mar 18 2006, 09:29 AM
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#360
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Hm, back to topic: After i ran a few games SR4, two main problems witht the system shine out:
1. Mages are powerful, much more than in previous editions. By rolling Spellcasting + Magic vs. Willpower + Counterspelling when casting a combat spell, they had on average a twice bigger dicepool than the target. 2. No chance to get another Iniative Pass is hard. In my games, the boosted Sammie was hero of the combat, 'cause he has three actions every round, while most others (PCs and NPCs) are stuck with their one action. I like it that you had the chance to get more than one action per round in SR1-3. But overall i like the system, it runs smooth and is really streamlined. Even rigging and hacking is no longer a pain in the ass. |
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Mar 18 2006, 09:49 AM
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#361
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That way, it would be 19 dice because of the Reflex Recorder. ;) |
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Mar 18 2006, 11:04 AM
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#362
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Which would be what my group's sammy is packing (actually he has something more, but that's still in playtesting). He's also throwing around about 16 dice in melee combat too, has the Stealth group at 3 (dicepool average of 8 ), Athletics group at 2 (dicepool average of 8 ), a couple of Technical and Vehicle skills, only 2 contacts, a nice long 3 page list of gear and 3 in Edge. |
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Mar 18 2006, 12:01 PM
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#363
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..it's always nice being reminded that Augmention and Arsenal won't be out soon. :dead: |
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Mar 19 2006, 06:22 AM
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#364
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Yeah. So, we're comparing an experienced character, with an unknown amount of karma, and packing unknown gear that's not even out yet, to a BBB starting character? :eek: Mr. Lucky is designed to show the lack of flaws in a munchkinized BBB starting character. Of course he's not going to be all that impressive against someone with a hundred karma and top-secret equipment, running with rules no one else has seen. However, the fact that he's even in the same ballpark as an experienced character with all those advantages, should be very telling. I mean, the whole point of playtesting is to find the holes; your sammie is running under rules that haven't been fully checked over for abuse potential. So, we have a character who's got all that, and he's neck-and-neck with a heavily min/maxed BBB starting character. And you think Mr. Lucky *isn't* overpowering?
Yeah, and I just realized I made another error on that. He bought the one for the Firearms group, and not just Pistols. I'll either need to recalculate his essence and cash, or let it go as a waste. Although... the tweak for him would include a set of skillwires, so would the group recorder help with a set of chipped skills? |
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Mar 19 2006, 10:44 AM
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#365
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
To me, it sounded like playtesting characters are usually starting ones.
Well, the amount of dice did exclude that extra gear. ;)
If those would count, though, it wouldn't be neck-and-neck. ;)
Mr. Lucky is nice, but not that much different from most things postet for 'consideration' - it's not even a build that completely runs into his hard caps at chargen. Pretty much the only reason for me as a GM to send you back to drawing board is the fact that I don't like Incompetency taken for skills defaulting isn't possible anyway. (It's possible as well to take Incompetency for skills you are not even allowed to have, so basically, one could go for Resonance and Magic skills.)
Indeed. SR4 does not feature any of those restrictions given in M&M. |
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Mar 19 2006, 10:51 AM
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#366
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Gnarv.
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Mar 19 2006, 12:08 PM
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#367
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Huh? Only if by experienced you mean he's been on 2 runs which have netted him 10 karma and which he hasn't spent on anything then the answer is yes... The only extra he has that you don't have at chargen right now is one piece of cyber which will be in an upcoming book (and which I didn't add to his totals) - also note it is a piece of cyber that was generally available in SR3.
That might be the case if you weren't so off base. Maybe you could point to where I said this was an experienced character or had any karma invested at all? Maybe I missed something? Or maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions... The information I provided was for a character straight out of chargen (A tweaked out ork samurai), otherwise no comparison would have been possible. Why the heck would I bring an experienced character into this debate? Mr. Lucky has about as many weaknesses as any other starting character, meaning he's balanced with other starting characters which is my point. He's maxed out in one particular skill, meaning that's been his development focus for a fair chunk of his life to the point that he can compete with the best of the best. He's fortunate that he's innately physically competent and capable in a number of other areas (though he's a little behind most characters who have invested -not specialized- in those areas). My players are particularly good at tweaking characters which makes them ideally suited for playtesting. Our group also has a Wolf shaman who's capable of pumping 20 dice into Spellcasting right out of chargen - he's still "less effective" than his SR3 counterpart. |
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Mar 19 2006, 12:19 PM
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#368
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Personally, I liked the idea of the Program more from a style PoV. But, that would be pretty cheap, essence-wise. |
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Mar 19 2006, 10:22 PM
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#369
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Oh, I could have forced it higher; but after Four Days of character design, I was getting mightily sick of the whole thing. He's disgusting enough without further munchkinizing.
Those were example ones; I'm not such a munchkin that I wouldn't adjust my edges/flaws to suit a GM's game. I did mention that you could theoretically go for the Resonance/Magic skills too, but I didn't even try those on the grounds that even I thought they were too abusive. However... buying incompetences in certain skills that don't allow defaults is still a legit concept. If someone bought it in Pilot Ground Vehicle, for example, or Electronic Warfare, he'd be crippling his character in several very important areas. Even without the ability to default, being totally unaware of how things work would be a serious disadvantage.
Okay, maybe I'm not making my argument very well. Mr. Lucky has no *relative* weaknesses; he's just about as good or as screwed as any other character in many areas. However, he's way overbalanced, and hyperspecialized. He's got one huge advantage in one area, and is about average everywhere else. Now, a generalist build ends up being about average everywhere. As you pointed out, Mr. Lucky isn't any weaker than they are. But because he has a humongous advantage in one area, it shows that the chargen process favors hyperspecialists-- a well-built one-trick pony won't have many relative disadvantages in comparison to a "balanced" character. He keeps his advantages, and has no relative disadvantages. There are generally two ways of preventing hyperspecialists from appearing in a system. One is to introduce stat caps, and the other is to make the tradeoffs more painful. As Mr. Lucky shows, the stat caps don't prevent a character from super-specializing to an ungodly level; and his lack of relative weaknesses shows that he's not making a lot of painful tradeoffs. This is why I say the chargen system needs a major overhaul. There's a terrible disconnect between the "more street level, gritty characters" the press releases talked about, and what we've actually gotten. Also, I'm of the opinion that a chargen system needs to be balanced: hyperspecialists need to be on par with generalists overall. A good chargen system, IMO, equally encourages many different builds-- it shouldn't favor one over the other. |
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Mar 19 2006, 10:40 PM
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#370
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Of course, even the archetype street samurai does so.
Actually, you can default on Pilot Ground Vehicle. ;) |
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Mar 19 2006, 10:52 PM
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#371
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
This is where we disagree. I believe Mr. Lucky is a perfectly acceptable character concept because he is slightly weaker than the generalists in my game. To quote myself:
In fact, he's on average 2-3 dice behind most of the generalists in my game with 2+ skill groups at 4. Plus, while they all have room for growth, generalists have a wider base for skill investment, while Mr.Lucky will be picking up new skills from scratch. Note there's nothing wrong with that, it's a development choice like any other.
Again we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, Mr.Lucky is superspecialized but that doesn't make up for his "weaknesses" Too much depends on Karma flow, Edge refresh and the emphasis, variety and number of rolls the GM calls for - Mr.Lucky would be certainly be weaker than a generalist in my game.
As people have said the problem is you're chosing to build a hyperspecialist: a worldclass sharpshooter. This is your choice. If you want you could have made a street level character. The system doesn't have to enforce one or the other. And for the record all SR4 characters are closer to "street level" characters than SR3 characters were (compare stats if you don't believe me) - so the "more street level" characters
And I'm of the opinion that your evaluation of the chargen system is wrong, because in my game the advantage in performance between your hyperspecialist in his chosen specialty and a generalist character does not make up for his being a less efficient build than a generalist in all the generalist's fields of choice. |
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Mar 19 2006, 11:40 PM
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#372
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i disagree, here. the upper stat limit caps much lower in SR4, so something like a 3 in SR4 is closer to the upper limit than it would be in SR3. even a 1 is higher in SR4 than in SR3. the low skill caps in SR4 mean the same thing for skills, only much moreso. |
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Mar 20 2006, 12:12 AM
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#373
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Comparison is only appropriate with each relative framework. IMHO the statistical difference (and relative performance) between a new SR3 character and a street thug or pedestrian is significantly more than the difference between their SR4 equivalents - in large part because of the linear progression you dislike. |
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Mar 20 2006, 12:18 AM
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#374
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's true, but it's also true that the difference between a street thug or a pedestrian and a top-end SR4 character is much smaller. to me, it devalues the concept of "street level" if the difference between street-level and top-end is too small. if everyone from the lowest punk ganger to the badassest Ghost is within spitting distance of each other, it no longer feels like cyberpunk because cyberpunk draws a lot of its substance from the huge gap between the upper crust and the lower dregs.
regardless, my point is that comparing stat numbers is misleading, because the stat numbers mean vastly different things in the two editions. |
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Mar 20 2006, 08:47 AM
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#375
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210 |
As much as I like the SR4 system there are some things that stand out to me.
I have given it much thought and studied how certain aspects of their system work have have come to a few conclusions. Paying speical attention to a section called THE ABSTRACT NATURE OF RULES starting on page 52. I believe the creators of SR4 knew that there is no way that they could statisfy all their fans, its just not possible. So from what I can tell from their attitude is that they made a system designed to be MADE more flexible to the players needs from the get go. Personally I have tweaked it allot, but it was all VERY easy for the most part and done in a short amount of time. The only hard part was their combat formula and once it was done, the book feel into place easy. I happen to agree that chargen is to close to the top end of the food chain. To me with the present chargen if you made 8 or 10 the skill cap with a +3 skill cap going to those who are Legendary(due to the dice effects) it fits more into place of the flavor of the game and its growth. BUT, and its a big but, thats just me. What I like is that with how the system is made, tweeks are easily done with little amounts of work. I have never played a game that was not tweeked by the players and this is one of the easiest games I have worked on and moved on to playing. I have been playing RPGs since the mid 70s and though I am not a fan of success dice systems like this, the game has been very enjoyable with a flavor second to none. I think the bottom line is if you don't like it, change it. Its very flexible and easy to do it with this system and if that still doesn't not work, 86 it and next game. |
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