SR3 vs 4 in Play - Dumpshock Forums

SR3 vs 4 in Play

Brahm View Member Profile	Mar 22 2006, 02:16 AM Post #426
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006	@Waltermandias EDIT Oops, looked a little closer. Toner is limited to Level 2, Avail is Rating x 5. That character is still at least 6(?) dice short of topping out that Skill+Attribute, not including the Specialize. Sure those 18 dice will do fine shooting paper discs down at the range. But give him 6 boxes of P and S, shooting a smartlinked longarm through a smoke grenade in otherwise favorable lighting at medium range and he is down to about 8 dice. Against a modestly cybered Reaction of 7 standing out in the open and not using Full Defense the shooter is going to score a hit on the target roughly 50% of the time, and one-shot kill the target far less often than that. At that point those extra dice definately mean something. They mean a hell of a lot infact. The difference in the specialized Skill between a strong, functional starting character and a developed character only shows strongly when they are faced with at least a moderately difficult task. For a difficult shot try giving that target cover while it is actively using Full Defense, and top it off by making it critical that the target be brought down within that IP by the shooter. If the target has halfway decent armor and a bit of Edge to defend with things are looking very bleak for the starting character succeeding. For better or worse, SR4 gunfire does generally favor the attacker over the defender. If it didn't you'd end up with a lot longer combat sequences. However the character you built is nothing close to dominant in the so-called field of shooting longarms. His Edge of 3 and only 2 IP alone hold him short of that even before being short on dice.

Kremlin KOA

Mar 22 2006, 02:48 AM

Post #427

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Mar 21 2006, 07:05 PM)

actually at a threshhold of 1 the difference was pronounced.

It was somewhere around 45% versus 20% before Combat Pool, which if you put in your maximum from the use it or lose it CP brought things very close. I forget which one was above the other at that point, likely still a bit easier with SR4. Then trying to factor in Karma Pool and Edge, that have a much longer range impact on your character's performance, and what weapon was being used try guesstimate soaking it got even more vague and overlapping.

QUOTE

and yes setting a threshhold is standard procedure but in the specific example setting it at other than 1 is against the spirit of the rules because the additional difficulty is already in the dice pool modifiers, and adding it to thethreashhold as well ismerely using GM fiat

Nope. The Opposed Test is effectively a dynamic Threshold. Naming the Threshold is just replacing the opposing roll dice that were ruled gone. The penalties are there for when the dynamic Threshold is in place, therefore independant of the Threshold.

ookay
skill 8 n sr3 on a TN 17 test gives 20% chance... I think we found the problem in Brahm's maths here
try a 7% chance
and about a 14% chance for 16 dice, ie Maxed out combat pool

yes the threshold replaces the opposed test,because the defender is effectively being penalized al his dice due to being UNAWARE OF THE ATTACK, if ya wanna give him a long shot test, that would be cool. but otherwise setting the threshold higher is giving someone automatic successes on a dodge test based on being oblivious... if that is the case

What is the points cost forthe positive quality 'Blonde and stupid/' in your games Because I want the stupidity based automatic successes on as many tests as i can get it for

Brahm

Mar 22 2006, 03:06 AM

Post #428

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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Mar 21 2006, 09:48 PM)

ookay
skill 8 n sr3 on a TN 17 test gives 20% chance... I think we found the problem in Brahm's maths here
try a 7% chance
and about a 14% chance for 16 dice, ie Maxed out combat pool

Sorry, I was just going from memory. Didn't feel like doing the search. Truthfully the full Threshold 1 senario didn't stick in my mind that much because it was horse-pucky anyway. You have the link to the thread?

QUOTE

yes the threshold replaces the opposed test,because the defender is effectively being penalized al his dice due to being UNAWARE OF THE ATTACK, if ya wanna give him a long shot test, that would be cool. but otherwise setting the threshold higher is giving someone automatic successes on a dodge test based on being oblivious... if that is the case

I believe it was actually mfb making up his own ruling taking away the opposing dice to start with. Which I was cool with. But it still doesn't mean the Threshold has to be 1. The shooter still has to accomplish something. If you just set all your Thresholds to 1 for tasks you certainly are going to have a tough time of things, and your players are going to have an unnaturally easy one. The target is already penalized plenty by not being able to bring his abilities to bear on the situation, which would tend to make it much more difficult to hit him than a Threshold 2.

QUOTE

What is the points cost forthe positive quality 'Blonde and stupid/' in your games Because I want the stupidity based automatic successes on as many tests as i can get it for

If Blonde & Stupid translates to it always being Threshold 2 to be hit by a weapon then I'd give that one out for free. Although that is metagaming a bit since the player would have to be Blonde & Stupid themselves to take it for the PC. :)

Kremlin KOA View Member Profile	Mar 22 2006, 03:14 AM Post #429
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650	you feel threshold 2? still 14% vs 26% that is a significant difference, but not awe inspiring. and that was the 12 dice guy if ya make him the 15 dice guy vs the 18 dice dice sr3 guy (top end starting adepts, both of them, not fully rorted but chunky) you get 65% versus 15% now the differences are significant and frightening oh and the blonde thing... well I always like to add a joke speaking of jokes, look at michael Jackson

Brahm

Mar 22 2006, 03:25 AM

Post #430

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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Mar 21 2006, 10:14 PM)

you feel threshold 2? still 14% vs 26% that is a significant difference, but not awe inspiring.

Where is the link? I thought this was 2 dice in SR4 he had whittled it down to in his example. For Threshold 2 that is 11% chance. Not that I would consider 26% to 14% that significant a swing given how out of the way and unlikely to occur the example really was, by mfb's own admission.

Of course you could change things around again and make it 1 die higher. After all we are dealing with very nebulous things. It is pretty hard to translate a particular value of firearms combat Skill in SR3 to a particular level of the mental Attribute Intuition in SR4. Which made the example all the more silly, and deliciously ironic how close it worked out to in the end since he had tried so hard to make a screwed up example.

Kremlin KOA View Member Profile	Mar 22 2006, 03:29 AM Post #431
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650	he whittled it down to three dice and i used the odds calculator table in the community projects site for the sr4 stuff and did the sr3 odds on a calculator

Brahm

Mar 22 2006, 03:29 AM

Post #432

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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Mar 21 2006, 10:29 PM)

he whittled it down to three dice

and i used the odds calculator table in the community projects site for the sr4 stuff
and did the sr3 odds on a calculator

Link?

EDIT I'm curious because he tried to use the example at least couple of times. I'm wondering how well he cooked it up that last time.

Kremlin KOA View Member Profile	Mar 22 2006, 07:46 AM Post #433
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650	I am not searching for the link but he has always used tghe 12 dice sniper ad blind is -6 while extreme range is -3 12-6-3=3

FrankTrollman

Mar 22 2006, 08:39 AM

Post #434

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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

I am not searching for the link
but he has always used tghe 12 dice sniper
ad blind is -6 while extreme range is -3
12-6-3=3

He's often used that numeric example, but he's often used it to portray examples that would not be represented in that fashion by the rules. The important part is that the blind attack modifier doesn't include the ability to shoot at a target whose location is unknown - it's just the inability to visually line the target up with your weapon.

Essentially all of his complaints on this topic boil down to two things:

1. He has rather unrealistic ideas about what you can do by taking a blind fire modifier in SR4.

2. He thinks the penalty for shooting at extreme range is insufficient.

That's it. I'll even grant him 2. as a given. Sure, range penalties should probably be -1, -3, -5. Whatever. Why is this worth multiple flame wars themselves spanning dozens of pages each? I'm literally baffled.

Making a perception test to locate your target doesn't make the blindfire penalties go away, and the blindfire penalties don't waive your requirement to make that perception test. Making a perception test to find an enemy at extreme range when you can't see is really hard. Mfb's example has been invalid since he started posting it, it's been explained at length, and he keeps bringing it up anyway because sometimes we're just too tired of explaining the same thing over and over again and then it looks like he's got a point again.

-Frank

Kremlin KOA View Member Profile	Mar 22 2006, 08:44 AM Post #435
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650	funny I was working on clue based sniping from Enemy at the Gates

Synner View Member Profile	Mar 22 2006, 09:10 AM Post #436
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	Frank is correct. SR4 specifically states typical situations where Full Cover/Blind Fire modifiers apply and none come even close to not knowing where the target is in the first place - and before anyone gets their panties in a knot, neither did SR3 RAW.

Cain

Mar 22 2006, 09:19 AM

Post #437

Grand Master of Run-Fu

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QUOTE

Your point of what, being able to dominate in a fantasy cyberish-punkish setting without any sort of augmentation?

*You're* the one who started talking about unaugmented characters. Don't try and change the subject just because you're losing the argument. We notice that sort of thing.

QUOTE

Essentially all of his complaints on this topic boil down to two things:

1. He has rather unrealistic ideas about what you can do by taking a blind fire modifier in SR4.

2. He thinks the penalty for shooting at extreme range is insufficient.

I'm going to mirror his complaint on #1. I've said it here and in other threads: after a certain point, it doesn't matter how many penalties you have, you'll always have the same number of dice to make the test with. Someone with a higher Edge is going to be more likely to pull off the impossible shot, regardless of what their skills are.

If you've got an Edge of 8, and your dice pool has dropped to zero, you may as well blindfold yourself, default to a weapon skill, and call a shot against 20+ points of armor. You'll still get the same 8 dice.

-Nyx-

Mar 22 2006, 09:40 AM

Post #438

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QUOTE (Cain)

I'm going to mirror his complaint on #1. I've said it here and in other threads: after a certain point, it doesn't matter how many penalties you have, you'll always have the same number of dice to make the test with. Someone with a higher Edge is going to be more likely to pull off the impossible shot, regardless of what their skills are.

If you've got an Edge of 8, and your dice pool has dropped to zero, you may as well blindfold yourself, default to a weapon skill, and call a shot against 20+ points of armor. You'll still get the same 8 dice.

Basically you're right.

When your dice pool dropped to zero due to extreme circumstances, it

(a) doesn't matter if you just dropped to 0 or perhaps -2 or -356...

(b) a person with high Edge is in advantage.

Ad (a):
To design a game system that has a flawless probabilities-curve over the whole spectrum is hard.

To design one that is also quite intuitive to learn and not over-complicated to play is almost impossible.

As long, as the system works for most circumstances and is easily adjustable in the extremes by the GMs common sense, it is fine to me.

Ad (b):
Well... isn't that what Edge represents... ;)

Greetings,
Nyx

Kremlin KOA View Member Profile	Mar 22 2006, 12:26 PM Post #439
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650	just read the list and yes they list the ways it applies Enemy at the Gatesstyle sniping and 'that @#$%^&* mage just used an iinvisibility spell" are the two that applied in both sr3 and sr4 the first is less common that the second in any SR game I have played... the second is far too common

Azralon

Mar 22 2006, 03:18 PM

Post #440

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QUOTE (Waltermandias)

However, as I have said before, I would never make a character like this to play. I feel that this does NOT represent a "beginning" character, and this is someone who has received a LOT of training in the fine art of raining bullet-laden death on one's enemies. I still feel that the ability to make such a character is not a reason to do so, and I do not fault a system for letting me do so.

Amen.

Wally, if I get this framed and send it to you, will you sign it for me? Just say "To my biggest fan."

Waltermandias View Member Profile	Mar 22 2006, 03:33 PM Post #441
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291	You bet! And that signature will be worth a lot of money when I am all rich and famous-like! 8)

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