 SR3 vs 4 in Play |
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 Mar 7 2006, 03:10 PM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626  |
IME it plays much faster for people who are new to SR or who have only a passing familiarity with the system. Yeah, I kinda miss the variable pools but I don't miss watching people agonize over when and where to spend their dice. The game runs smoother just from that regard. Combat mechanics are pretty much the same concept as before so they aren't really different. I will say that hacking is much better and more useful in a firefight without being overpowered or disfunctional (yay). Riggers are a step sideways, moving away from the Tank Girl imagery and more towards the James Bond remote control spider; still very useful but not so much raw muscle (but a lot easier to integrate into the GMs plans, IMO). Magic is still magic; I think the book keeping has been simplified a bit for the mage since you no longer buy spells at Force. Vehicle driving has been simplified (not that you can get harder than the obfuscation of the Maneuver Score) but there are still some hazy spots when it comes to speed. I'd say that including the problems with the organization of the book, the game tends to run noticeably faster than any other edition of SR. I'm sure a SR4.1 BBB with an updated layout would definitely make picking up the nuances of the game easier but this is probably one of the easiest significant game system revisions I've ever gone through. Definitely up there with AD&D->d20. |
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Mar 7 2006, 03:22 PM
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#77
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
The Vehicle rules while definately improved suffer heavily from the problem of rules scattered in different section and also lack a final polish to close up a few loose ends. Examples are what vehicles require you to add a rigger adaptation, whether the Control Rig is required or not, and what that Pilot column is suppose to represent in the Vehicle table or if it was included by mistake. |
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Mar 7 2006, 03:31 PM
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#78
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
There always comes a time to move on, with or without regrets. You've just been coming through as a "SR4 hater" in precisely the wrong forum to vent such sentiments. Critiques are healthy (and necessary) until they become repeated overzealous flame wars; then they're a waste of time and effort no matter how well thought out they are. So yeah, breaking up is hard to do. Especially when the breakup negotiations become self-fulfilling. That's all I'm sayin'. |
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Mar 7 2006, 06:29 PM
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#79
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Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 1,582 |
Our group has been playing SR4 quite a bit. It is certainly no less fun that SR3 and plays a little quicker because there is less number crunching for every action.
The biggest difficulty we've run into is the lack of supplemental material that was available in SR3. Using the SR4 book alone, you're missing a lot of vehicles, equipment, NPC templates, etc etc. So, we've had to do a lot of on-the-fly conversion of vehicles, gear, and threats. Suggestion: It would be ideal if they could release a PDF or supplement that provides a system for converting vehicles and equipment from Rigger 3, and spells from other sources. A lot of the richness of the world is lost because the stack of books we have for SR3 and SR2 aren't functional now. :| |
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Mar 7 2006, 06:52 PM
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#80
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
problem is that a pdf like that would undercut the need for books like unwired and similar...
allso, i dont think is so much a conversion as a rethink on many items. as in, the rules have been changed so greatly that you have to go back to the basic idea of whatever it its your bringing over, and just recreate the stats from scratch... |
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Mar 8 2006, 09:11 AM
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#81
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
The problem is, the flexibility just isn't there. You can have your character concept change dramatically, but you still can't manage to pull off a lot of things. There's just too many arbitrary limitations and caps in place. For example, you can't have a character with above-average stats across the board-- there just aren't enough points availiable to give you all stats at 4 or better. In many cases, my SR4 character experiments have come unraveled midway through, forcing me to go back and rework everything. I do exactly what you suggest, but then one area gets to big, the other gets too small, and up and down goes the seesaw.
I agree here. I can't imagine anything worse than the Maneuver Score, so the new vehicle rules are an astounding improvement. However, I can't figure out if the second section on vehicle combat is meant to apply in vehicle-vs-vehicle or vehicle-vs-pedestrian combat. And you *still* can't easily combine multiple vehicles and people at once. If you've got a drone rigger on each side during a firefight, you can't use the closing rules, since they operate on a totally different timescale. |
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Mar 8 2006, 02:22 PM
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#82
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,416 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Albuquerque Member No.: 8,334 |
I've found in play that SR4 doesn't seem significantly different from SR3 in speed or ease. Character creation was difficult for me at first. I kept trying to give SR3 skill levels to SR4 skills, and kept running out of points. As soon as I started thinking of the creation system being more akin to the White Wolf system used for their D10 games (i.e. Stat+Skill for all rolls), instead of traditional Shadowrun system, I was able to make characters a lot easier.
The only thing the players of the group I'm with seem to really mourn is the loss of certain contested rolls, like melee combat. In particular, our former adept counterstrike prodigy misses it most. Hehe I'm not sure anyone ever successfully struck that character in melee combat... Of course, SMG's always seemed to toss him straight into emergency near-dead status... Overall, I'm thinking SR4 is alright. I'm not sure I necessarily prefer it to SR3, but SR4 definitely isn't bad. I echo the sentiment of missing out on all the supplemental material. I know in SR3, there are characters that I still cannot recreate due to lack of SR4 materiel. Oh well. Time fixes everything! |
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Mar 8 2006, 04:35 PM
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#83
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Hm. Rereading my posts I think I'm coming off as too much of a sourpuss. The reality is I like SR4, in particular the design philosophy of simplicity, streamlining, and unification of rulesets that it promotes. One of the best parts of D&D 3--one of the *only* good parts*--is how everything was unified under a core mechanic, allowing rules mastery in a way that few other systems at the time could match. SR4 is doing to Shadowrun what D&D 3 did for AD&D, and that's a teriffic thing.
What's bothering me is that, in some cases, they didn't go far enough. There's still that quirky disconnect between chargen and advancement that doesn't need to be there. Instead of fixing the unique and powerfully expressive dice system of SR1-3 it was ditched entirely for a virtual clone of another game's dice system, with all the problems that such an inflexible, linear system presents (see one of the various cover modifiers threads for an example of the problems, which never existed in SR3. Another example is how it is nearly impossible for the average "professional" (Att 3, skill 3) mage to get past a regular camera (OR3) with invisability; OR was designed with tweaked characters rather than normal characters in mind, and it doesn't scale well like SR3's OR did.) Instead of organizing the book to be an easy-to-use game reference book, to streamline the 95% of the time the book will be used for that purpose, it was organized using the formula from the SR3 core book. The SR3 BBB--and thus the SR4 core book--seem to be better organized around reading the entire book straight through, cover to cover, which most people will only do once, maybe twice. Thank God for the fairly complete index; I've been using those few back pages more than I've used the first half of the book. So that's my problem with SR4. They did good, but IMO they could have done much better and they chose not to. |
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Mar 8 2006, 05:22 PM
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#84
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I find the biggest change from 3 to 4 is that it requires a pretty significant shift in thought for both GMs and players. A lot of the strategies that worked in 3rd aren't optimal anymore. Overall, 4th seems to reward creativity and imagination a lot more than 3rd edition which, I think, is a good thing.
I've found that combat takes about the same amount of time as it did in 3rd. It may be cut down once we get more familiar with the mods and when the screen comes out but I find all the extra die rolling adds a lot of time. You also lose some of the tactical, gaming aspects of combat in 4th because of the disappearence of the die pool. It does however make sams a lot better than norms at fighting which is good setting-wise. Character creation is a lot easier and actually lets you make significantly different characters than 3rd and can allow you to make a competent team straight out of the book. General lack of proper organization, integration of the different voices of the authors, and sometimes under explained sections (they really should release Unwired before Street Magic) can make it a little hard to understand the new play style and setting but spending the time to figure it out gives you a better game overall than 3rd. |
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Mar 8 2006, 06:02 PM
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#85
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Hear, hear. |
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Mar 8 2006, 08:14 PM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
That isn't a matter of flexibility; that's a matter of expectations. The assumption is that you are a fairly inexperienced individual, low on the concrete jungle totem pole but with enough cash and history to be competent, if not particularly expert. Think "college graduate with less than a year's experience." If you don't like that the solution is simple: change the BP. If you want a more experienced game, give out 500BP. Someone on another thread is running a gang-related game and is planning to give out ~300BP. I like the expectations of SR4 because it means the characters don't fall over their own feet but still have growth potential. So many SR2 & SR3 characters felt..... done. I like the idea that even the most twinked out SR4 character still has playable life. But I can understand how constricted that may feel to some people. I think it's the reason so many people dont' like playing 1st level D&D characters. |
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Mar 8 2006, 08:35 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291 |
That's an excellent point. The same thing happened when White Wolf switched over to the new World of Darkness system. Alot of people didn't like the fact that the character creation system, as written, produced characters with a lot fewer and/or less potent abilities. I think what everyone needs to remember is that there is nothing at all wrong with giving more or less BP then the book suggests. Also, there is nothing wrong with ditching any of the caps that are disliked. If a group feels that the characters that they create are too limited, just give more points and/or ditch the caps. As long as your group and GM are cool with it, more power to you. The nice thing about the character creation system being different is that groups can house rule it to hell and back and won't really cause any weird hiccups in the rest of the rules. And to weigh in on the "how long does it take to make a character" thing. For me it's a little quicker in SR4. I get through stats, skills, and qualities pretty quick, and equipment takes me forever. The only reason it goes a little faster than SR3 is that I don't have any other sourcebooks to dig through for cool toys. :( |
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Mar 8 2006, 11:35 PM
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#88
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Well, it is and it isn't. There's still a lot of things you can do within that thought, but you still can't play any of a variety of balanced concepts that go against the grain. For example, it's very difficult to make a grizzled old veteran, who still has sharp skills, but whos natural physical abilities are sliding (high skills and low attributes). And it's impossible to play someone who relies on natural talent almost exclusively-- high stats and low skills. Both these concepts fit the power level and basic assumption you describe, but are difficult if not outright impossible to bring to fruition in SR4.
I have to disagree here. It's entirely possible to max out a stat/skill combination right out of chargen, making it so you can never advance in that area ever again. The skill caps sharply limit how mugh growth potential a character can ever have. While I see what you mean about SR2&3, since they had an open-ended system, you could never max out-- you just hit a point of diminishing returns. So, you have your "new to the concrete jungle" shadowrunner, who's already the world's best shot with a pistol. And despite a wonderful character history that drives him to forever hone his skills to new heights, he is barred from doing so. Since someone asked, let me pull out the four-day character I made. I did what has been suggested-- developed a strong concept, made quick tallies by each section, and then balanced it out from there. However, things that happened later on made me go back and redo earlier parts. For example, I initially tried allocating a fixed amount of resource points for gear, but I kept going over, so I'd have to pull points from elsewhere; I'd remove a few items, but then I was way under. Eventually, I just made a wish list of everything, totalled up the cost, and then divided it by 5000 to get the point allocation. Also, originally he was an adept, but then I discovered the errata which limited his Improved Skill power. Since you couldn't beat the cap that way, I ended up reworking the character almost from scratch as a street sam. Anyway, here we go: Mr. Lucky Race: Human B: 4 Q:5(7) R:4(6) S:3(5) C:3 I:4 L:2 W:3 Essence: 0.75 Edge: 8 :eek: Init: 8(10), 3 passes. Edges: Lucky Aptitude: Pistols High Pain Tolerance 1 Flaws: SINner Incompetence: Pilot Anthroform Incompetence: Pilot Aerospace Incompetence: Aeronautic Mechanic Incompetence: Industrial mechanic Incompetence: Nautical mechanic Incompetence: Software Skills: Pistols 7 (Semi auto), total 18 dice. Gymnastics 3 (dodging) total 6 dice. Infiltration 2 (Urban) total 5 dice. Con 2 (Fast talk) total 4 dice Unarmed Combat 2 (Martial arts) total 5 dice. Knowledge: 18 free. Contacts: Fixer 2/2 Street Doc: 1/3 Gear: 38 pts. Cyber/Bio: Wired 2 Muscle Replacement 2 Enhanced articulation Reflex recorder (firearms group) Gear highlights: 2 commlinks, one for public use, one skinlinked to operate gear. Contact lenses with vision mods & smartlink. Glasses with Vision Enhancement 3 & ultrasound. Armor jacket with chemical protection and Insulation 6. Lots of Ares Predators with lots of EX-EX ammo. Smartlinked AVS's. Smartlinked Roomsweepers. High lifestyle, 2 mo prepaid. Starting nuyen: 4d6+12 x 500. As you can see, he's not a one-trick pony-- he's got two very noticeable tricks, and a few extra besides. His skills cover all the bases, with reasonable steath and social abilities; he still needs to partner himself with a good infiltrator, decker, and face, but that's why shadowrunners work in teams. His contacts cover the bases for a street sam: a fixer is necessary, and a street doc is always helpful. Since you need a street doc for his skills more than his connections, you can afford to push that rating down quite a bit. His Incompetence flaws are the really disgusting part, though. Not only is it highly unlikely that he'll ever find himself in a situation where he'd need to use any of those skills, none of them allow you to default anyways. But the really fun part is this: take a look at the BBB street samurai archetype. You'll notice that these two concepts are almost identical in function. So, despite all the purported flexibility in the system, the build ended up being almost the same in general. |
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Mar 8 2006, 11:49 PM
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#89
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Disgusting? If a player handed me this character sheet I'd be inclined to use the Large Dildo Solution. :rotfl: No way a GM should accept that crap. SR4 removed most of the old Flaw exploints, but Incompetance is probably the single worst open ended one left. Post Script Another thing I noticed just glancing over it, even a street-level fixer is Connection 3. So you want to keep and not spend any extra you should probably change him from 2/2 to a 1/3. |
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Mar 8 2006, 11:54 PM
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#90
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Nah... they don't like those because they die if you sneeze on them, or if they trip over a small root in the forest. Running D&D, I'd almost inevitably start people at 3rd level, just to get them over the nastiness of trying to survive with all of 5 hit points in a game where some of the more basic weapons can do more than that in one hit. Cain, the character you've got is an absolute god with handguns, and can muddle his way through pretty much anything else for a while. My main fear would be getting into any real mental-type situations that he'd be defaulting on, as any penalties would rapidly have him be making Long Shots. Perception is the one that would worry me the most in an "imminent death" kind of way. Ettiquette might be another. Most smart GMs would nix the Incompetencies you've chosen, although they are legal by RAW, as being inappropriate for the campaign (unless, of course, you're playing Air Force Specops or something). As for constantly pushing himself to become even better at his task... he's reached the pinnacle of human capability. He's reached the point where the diminishing returns on constant training have gotten so small, that training is only going to keep him performing at the level he's at. Or if you wanted to "code in" that drive, you could always figure out a few places to lose some dice, and round the character out a bit more. There's a point at which progressing any further in a particular skill takes the game out of balance. I don't have a firm number to hand out as to where that point is, but 18 dice being thrown (or 26, rerolling 6's, with Edge) is certainly pushing it real hard. I don't have a problem with where the caps are on performance, because of how far beyond most everyone else's ability to compete or resist those caps usually are. |
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Mar 9 2006, 12:19 AM
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#91
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That's where Trick #2 comes into play. With an Edge of 8, he will do amazingly well on any longshot test, and can afford to do it more often than anyone else. What's more, since your dice pool can't be pushed below zero, he can load up on the modifiers and still have 8 dice to pull it off with. For extended ettiquette and mental-type situations, he would need to rely on a teammate, but that makes him no different than any other similar character (look at the street sam in the BBB to see what I mean). As far as perception goes, that's why he bought the glasses with Vision Enhancement 3. That gives him 6 dice, even with the defaulting penalty. Like a proper min/maxer, I've minimized his weaknesses-- not totally removed them, since that's seldom entirely possible, but I've reduced the immediate risks reasonably well. And as for the incompetences, under ordinary circumstances, a good GM could make sure that I'd be heavily penalized for them-- putting the team in situations where those skills are needed. However, since you can't default on any of them, the actual game effect is minimal. I could choose different ones, more appropriate to the campaign, but even then they wouldn't mean much. For example, what happens if I had chosen Electronic Warfare, Pilot Aircraft, Medicine, Cybertechnology, and Automotive Mechanic instead? Not much, even though those skills are very pertinent to a normal shadowrunning game. So, what happens is this: the system still allows for a lot of disgusting abuses, and doesn't penalize you nearly as heavily for it, since it was relatively easy to cover his weak spots. The caps aren't preventing abuses, or penalizing hyperspecialization, but they *are* preventing many different character concepts.
Actually, I'd save it for someone who handed me a bunch of Incompetences in Magical and Resonance skills. Those are legal to take Incompetences in, by the RAW, but I thought that was too abusive for words. |
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Mar 9 2006, 12:22 AM
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#92
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210 |
I see you took alot of Incompetence Flaws.
I think the idea of taking alot of Incompetence Flaws in areas that more then likely you will never experience sort defeats the flavor of the game. I could see one or two at best in areas that you deal with on occasion but basicly how do you know if your incompetant if you never have a chance to do it? I am pretty sure I am incompetant at flying the Space Shuttle but since I will more then likely never have the chance, does it really matter and should you get a bonus for it? For the most part SR4 is a pretty good system, with some tweeking it works even better. But hey all games NEED tweeking, just how much tweeking makes it good or bad. (We changed the combat formula and it seemed to open it right up) The idea of a cap on skills and such is not a bad idea, there is a point in RL that we just can't get past without being more then what we are. Most never reach that cap but its there. I think the issue may be more in the effect of where that cap is. If you were to make the cap at ten and leaving the starting point for chargen as is, it would leave plenty of room for growth, skill and story wise. Also it would leave much room for possible villians to be much higher then the chars and give them somthing more to strive for. And as it was said once, BPs can effect the game alot, less or more points leaves the game very open to play style from willy the weasle who sits on the corner begging for money to bond char. Besides the skill system with which I am much more happier with, I also enjoy the inititive system much more. It leaves joe avg struggling to hang with the beefed up runners and not just being so out classed that he is dead everytime without a shot being fired from him and him looking down at his body heading for the pearly gates wondering, what happend? Avg joe can still be a sombody give the game much flavor and not just a guy in a red shirt for the gunners to test weapons out on. So I am in favor of SR4 for the most part, what I don't like I change for the better and get on to playing. I would think instead of bashing SR4 or SR3 as some do, it might be better to start a thread and post what would you do to change it for the better. Never know who is listening and what changes it may cause in the future develpment of the game. Deadjester |
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Mar 9 2006, 12:32 AM
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#93
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
what? prove it. |
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Mar 9 2006, 12:36 AM
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#94
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210 |
I can't prove it but if you talk dirty to me and send me some beer and I will make some BS up.
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Mar 9 2006, 12:45 AM
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#95
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
The current world record for the 100 meter dash is, IIRC, 9.77 seconds. In 1936 (70 years ago) it was 10.2 seconds. One could argue that the differences in technology, understanding of biology and nutrition, and training techniques that didn't exist 70 years ago have made runners more than what they were back then.
It took 70 years of advancement to produce a 4.4% increase in speed over that sprint. I don't think the assertion that there are maximums to how far a human can be pushed is particularly out there. (EDIT: and no, I didn't realize I was making a pun using runners as an example until after I posted.) This post has been edited by Shrike30: Mar 9 2006, 12:47 AM |
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Mar 9 2006, 12:51 AM
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#96
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i think there's enough BS flying around with regards to SR4. hard caps, especially as implemented, are much less realistic than a well-made diminishing returns system. in such a system, just as in real life, there comes a point where the cost of advancing simply surpasses all benefit. that point varies from person to person, but everybody hits it. if someone tries to abuse the system, it's easy enough to implement training times ("raising your unaugmented Str from 10 to 11? yeah, that'll take a straight year of strength training.")
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Mar 9 2006, 01:22 AM
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#97
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Mmm-hmm. You ever heard of the "Four Minute Mile"? Not all that long ago, it was thought that it was impossible for a human to run a mile in less than four minutes. However, Roger Bannister proved them all wrong. What's more, since then thousands of people have run a mile in under four minutes, showing that the human maximums *can* indeed be pushed further and further. I'll bet that if you graph the world records over the timeframe you mention, you'll see that there was probably a lot of improvement at first, gradually slowing down over time. That indicates a "diminishing returns" curve, instead of a hard limit. |
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Mar 9 2006, 01:40 AM
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#98
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Which is why anyone that brought me a character sheet with 5 Incompetence Flaws is risking the wrath of a LDS. If was handed a non-Awakened character with Incompetence in magical skills I'd hand out the large dildos to everyone else at the table so they could join in the fun. :) Mind you if you took just Incompetency:FirstAid you likely would end up wishing I would have turned it down. On Perception, you definately are going to need Ear Buds as well. But still you are far, far better off to cut a point from your Edge, drop 4 points into Perception, and still have 9 BP left over for somewhere else. Those extra 5 dice are going to save you at least a point of Edge, and make you very difficult to surprise. Shame on the GM that forgets about the other senses, like scent. ;) Same goes the majority of those Specializations. Waste of BP. Survival, Navigation are quite useful Skills unless you'll damn sure you won't find yourself alone and doing something like crawling through the sewers in a wireless dead zone, or in anything less urban than a C Zone for an extended period of time. Even if you are with others having those Skills allows you to contribute to a Team Test which is really important for Survival tests.
This might actually be an encumberance issue, depending on GM interpretation. I assume the Insulation 6 is trying to keep your heat signature down? You'll propbably also want a second coat for warm sunny days, that'll get kind of hot runnning around in it.
If you are refering to this character, then you are sadly mistaken. :( If you are going to rely on Edge keep in mind two things. Edge tends to run out, and that if you don't have a Skill you are not nessasarily allowed a roll at all, and that is for all Skills. This character is mostly wallpaper. He does a couple of things, and you do exploit a couple of silly things like Specializing in hand-to-hand. Until there are rules to provide meaning to that Specialization that just an extra 2 dice. Also Ex-Ex along with the rest of the ammunition modifiers are poorly thought out. If this PC was in a game that was very heavy on shooting as the solution to lifes problems and didn't really go anywhere, or if he was the 7th man in a team that would do pretty much as well without him then he'd do fine. I certainly wouldn't find him particularly unbalancing, and rather putting effort into challenging him I would more likely end up pulling punches to protect him. If it was a smaller team what I would be unhappy is how he would contribute to narrowing the range of things I'd throw at the team. Maybe you are expecting the system to wack you over the head and tell you that this is a lame character? His shortcomings aren't that hard to see. |
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Mar 9 2006, 01:56 AM
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#99
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Let me suggest the following in an attempt to clarify something that keeps coming up with regards to this issue: the change in the SR4 Att and Skill system (including the new caps) requires a significant mental shift - one from an open-ended frame of reference (SR3) to a relative and closed frame of reference. Whereas in SR3 you were told that a Skill of 6 meant you were world-class it was still possible to get a skill rating up to a 10 or 12 given enough focus. SR4 changes the frame of reference to one with an absolute, it assume all unaugmented human results are all relative and all fall at somepoint within its range of 1 to 7 (with 7 being the pinnacle of unaugmented human achievement) or 1 to 9 with specialization. Since the scale is closed the real world equivalent would be to divide up an individual's ability within one of those 1-7. Since the frame of reference is closed it doesn't really matter whether a runner beats the four minute mile and shaves another two seconds off the world record, because he's still one of the 14,29% of athletes (or 11,11% four-minute mile specialists) that can do it (ie. the frame of reference is closed) - in practical terms it just means that developers decided that diminishing returns for having achieved the top percentile of athletes capable of that peak performance doesn't justify an extra die (maybe because the very next day he might not be able to achieve the same result). Additionally if an accomplishment is so outstanding that it "breaks the scale" (say someone running the "3 minute mile") then the scale is simply adjusted (after all it is both closed and relative). Whether this scale/frame of reference (and the dice pool it equates to) translates to "realistic" results or not is another issue, but once you accept the closed scale then caps make a lot more sense. |
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Mar 9 2006, 02:18 AM
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#100
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Once upon a time, I read an article about some scientists that calculated the absolute maximums for human athletes. Among other things, they put the 100 mts. record at somewhere between 8 and 9 seconds. Anything faster than that they deemed impossible for a human. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 6th December 2025 - 12:29 PM |
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