The difference between "Munchkin" and "Powergamer Options

[_Pax._]

This has always been a bit of a sore spot for me. See, I'm an incurable Powergamer; I derive immense satisfaction and enjoyment out of knowing how to make a game system sit up and beg at my feet. However, I do not consider myself a Munchkin. I find the term insulting (as pejoratives pretty much should be), and face it too often from folks who don't understand that there is a difference between powergaming and munchkinism.

Ever hear the old line "all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares" ...? Well, all Munchkins are Powergamers ... but not all Powergamers are Munchkins.

The difference, IMO, lies in intent. A Munchkin will try and use (and abuse, and misuse) the system to "win", not just over the NPCs but over the GM and the other players. A Powergamer who is not a munchkin, however, generally doesn't try to disturb the balance of the game. Often they - WE, rather - will just as happily apply our skills with the mechanics to improve everyone else's character. If I'm sitting next to you at the table, and you're building ... oh, a gun-bunny sort of Samurai? And you're more used to playing a spirit-calling shaman? I'll happily offer advice on useful gun configurations, cyber and bio implants, skill sets, Qualities, etc. All in the interest of making your character as good (meaning, efficient and effective, NOT one-dimensionally godlike) as the mechanics allow.

Mainly, it's because I grew out of the munchkiny ways of my early adolescence (what thirteen year old ISN'T at least partly a munchkin, right?) - nowadays, I'm all about niche protection. Each character - and thus, player - should have a niche, a role in the game where they get the spotlight by default. The generally archetypal nature of SR lends itself well to this - Samurai / Adept, vs Mage, vs Hacker/Technomancer, vs Rigger (vs Face, etc, etc). So now, I don't build characters to dominate every moment of gameplay; I build characters to shine during their turn in the spotlight.

And I'll happily lend a helping hand to anyone else at the table, so that their character shines just as brightly, when it's their turn in that spotlight.

So, yes. The next time you sit down to play Shadowrun with people you may not have met before (at a convention, perhaps) ...? The guy next to you may indeed be a Powergamer. Please don't assume he must also be a munchkin, however; observe how he uses his knowledge of the game system. If he hoards it selfishly, looking to gain the advantage in every situation conceivable even to the detriment of theother players ... he's a munchkin. If, on the other hand, he just seems to take joy in the system for it's own sake? Or even, freely offers "fine-tuning" advice in a friendly manner, while not trying to achieve insane things (like social die pools of 50+) ...? He's probably not a munchkin.

Give us Powergamers the benefit of the doubt. In the very least, you know two things about a "good" Powergamer's character:

(a) You can absolutely rely on them to be very competent in their chosen role
(b) You can absolutely rely on them to not step hard on your character's toes, in your chosen role. (Niche protection in action.)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bibliophile20]

I'd agree on this. Heck, by your definitions, I'm also a Powergamer, although not to the same degree (and being the GM kinda forces me to help make my players know how to use the system, if I want to avoid slaughtering them when I bring out the optimized NPCs).

And, at the same time, I've been in games with your definition of "Munchkin", including a mage-happy player that I've only recently begun speaking to again after four years. Said player was a perfect example of what you mean by "niche protection" and the disregard thereof.

[almost normal]

It's a problem with spotlight though. A conjuring mage can powergame for every single aspect of the game. A fire support specialist will only get to shine in one or two aspects.

Personally, I have far more fun playing flawed characters then OP ones. I fully intend for my next sr4 character to be a Rocker.

[_Pax._]

It's a problem with spotlight though. A conjuring mage can powergame for every single aspect of the game. A fire support specialist will only get to shine in one or two aspects.

Then the Conjuror is being munchkiny, simply enough. The player should realise that there are other players at the table, that no they aren't just his sidekicks, and that everyone deserves a fair share of "spotlight time". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Personally, I have far more fun playing flawed characters then OP ones.

Powergaming doesn't have to produce "overpowered" characters.

Let's look at one of mine, really quite "powerful" in terms of die pool. The concept was "old west gunslinger", and I built accordingly. Yes, he's VERY good with his sidearm. Yes, he's almost always going to shoot first - barring the use of Edge by the other side. Yes, his die pool when firing that sidearm is pretty close to 20 (so, not "stupendously" OP, but still pretty darned good, IMO). And yes, he's got a healthy pool of Edge, too.

OTOH, he's a pacifist, and is only lightly Augmented.

His stats, including Augment boosts:
Body 3
Agility 5
Reaction 3(4)
Strength 3
Charisma 3
Intuition 4
Logic 3
Willpower 3
Edge 5

Skillwise, he's got a bunch of 2's, with one stand-out: Pistols 7. Specialised in Revolvers, for +2.

His sidearm is a Cavalier Deputy revolver, modified with Melee Hardening, a Personalised Grip, an internal Smartgun system, and two levels of Customised Look.

For Qualities:
Adrenaline Surge (so he goes first, during the first IP of the first combat turn)
Aptitude: Pistols (for that rating of 7)
Martial Art: Firefight (10BP level; sole advantage is a 2 die reduction in the penalty for firing a gun in melee combat)
Pacifist (5BP level) ... the only ammunition he even owns are Gel rounds.

Augmentations include some tricked-out cyberyes, a cybernetic lower arm (his right), a level 1 synaptic accelerator, and a Reflex Recorder for Pistols.

Now, in a fight? With very very very few exceptions he WILL shoot first, dropping 17 dice (Agility 5, Pistols 7+2, Smartlink +2, RefRec +1) inflicting 4S vs Impact, with a net AP of +1, per shot for two shots (the Grip gives him 1 point of recoil compensation).

Now, the REST of the character fleshes that pretty monofocussed bag of details out. He's an ex-cop, from the Gang unit, who resigned after a "disagreement" with his superiors over how to handle a bunch of early-teen punks (they said "shoot to kill", he said "frag you!"). He's still on inseperably close terms with his ex-partner, who's made Detective in the years since the PC left the force.

Nowadays, he makes most of his living as a Bodyguard, and is quite well-known as a reliable, discreet, non-lethal example of the job (Local fame; also, Day Job at the 20hr/week level). To keep up his visibility - and the loose network of not-really-full-blown-Contacts that supply him with references, and thus work, he uses the Advanced Lifestyle rules ... mostly leading a Middle lifestyle, but in a less-desireable neighborhood in order to focus more money on the Entertainment aspect: he's a regular at places like U93, and similar.


I'll give you the full details if you like, though the worksheet has a few wee tiny errors (like, still lists Gas Vent 2 as a mod for the pistol, even though it's not needed).

You see, some of us Powergame to make interesting concepts work in a way that doesn't hobble them, nor the rest of the party.

I fully intend for my next sr4 character to be a Rocker.

That can be improved with a light touch of "Powergaming", too. A Rocker would possibly make a great Face, for example - without going the Pornomancer route.

[almost normal]

Now, in a fight? With very very very few exceptions he WILL shoot first, dropping 17 dice (Agility 5, Pistols 7+2, Smartlink +2, RefRec +1) inflicting 4S vs Impact, with a net AP of +1, per shot for two shots (the Grip gives him 1 point of recoil compensation). You see, some of us Powergame to make interesting concepts work in a way that doesn't hobble them, nor the rest of the party.

17 DP is a bunch though. Let's just assume standard 5 Attribute, 4 skill, 2 spec. That's an 11 DP. You're squeezing 6 more dice out. I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm not saying you couldn't push harder. The first character I ever made in SR pumped out upwards of 20 dice for most gun tests. I'm just suggesting that splitting your pool in half still means your getting 2-3 hits, which tends to hit most targets. It's a bit much. It's not wrong, It's not invalid, hell, I don't even frown on it, it's just a bit much.

A Rocker would possibly make a great Face, for example - without going the Pornomancer route.

The whole concept for me is trying to have the most fun with the most ass character possible. If I can drive a motorcycle with my thighs while shooting out the neck of my guitar-gun, screaming to the high heavens about the powers of rock with a dice pool of 6? I'd be ecstatic.

[SirBedevere]

Thank you _Pax._ for pointing out the difference so well.

[Darksong]

It also bears mentioning that to a certain extent, the Shadowrun meta-plot wants you to powergame to a certain extent. You're supposedly playing skilled corporate criminals who get paid more for a day's work than most folks will see in months or even a year. If you're not powergaming just a bit, you're going to run up against the fundamental premise of the game. Which can be frustrating for everyone else from a roleplaying perspective too.

[Paul]

Munchkins are that other guy. Power Gamers are that other guy too.

[_Pax._]

17 DP is a bunch though. Let's just assume standard 5 Attribute, 4 skill, 2 spec. That's an 11 DP. You're squeezing 6 more dice out.

Well honestly, any gun-focussed character who isn't using at least a laser sight (+1 die) is doing somethign seriously wrong. Really, for the role of "shooter", adepts aside, a Smartgun should be the expected default (+2 dice). (And I could probably have better spent the BP invested in Aptitude and that rank-7 skill, anyway; consider, that's a 36BP skill and a 25BP quality; for 28BP, I'd have a skill of 5 ... so those last 2d cost 33BP. Flipside, those 33BP could have been put into "born rich" and another 50K nuyen of gear - with 13BP to spare! Then, change the Synaptic Accelerator out for level 1 Wires, put in as much Muscle Toner as possible (4 ranks Ibelieve), and the die pool would actually rise ... just ... at the cost of both Essence and Concept. ^_^ )

The whole concept for me is trying to have the most fun with the most ass character possible. If I can drive a motorcycle with my thighs while shooting out the neck of my guitar-gun, screaming to the high heavens about the powers of rock with a dice pool of 6? I'd be ecstatic.

See, Powergaming helps that goal ... if you do it "right". It lets you find ways to reach die pools of 6 or 8 in "important" areas - combat, social situations, etc - with as little investment of CharGen resources as possible ... leaving you more resources to invest in the fluff side of the character.

A lot of people who want a die pool of 6 or 7 for firing a gun, might just go "Agility 3 or 4, <gun type> 2 or 3". But a powergamer will pause, decide what gun(s) he wants to be using "pretty much all the time", and buy level ONE skills, with specialisations. For example, if you know your rocker is only going to use, say, a heavy pistol? Get Pistols 1, specialised in either Revolvers or Semi-automatics (as your gun choice dictates). Now, you can cheaply have a die pool of 6-7 (Agility 3 or 4, Pistols 1, Specialisation +2).

"Agility 3 or 4, Pistols 3" costs 42 or 52 BP.

"Agility 3 or 4, Pistols 1, Specialised Autoloaders" costs 36 or 46BP. And the laser sight and gas vent, will cost well less than 1BP worth of gear (even for an especially extravagent weapon). For the same die pool.

And what's more, the focussed version? IMO it far better SUITS someone who isn't an all-around generalist with every pistol under the sun. They know autoloaders - the feel, heft, grip, recoil, etc are all familiar enough. Revolvers or break-action pistols ... not so much. Meanwhile, you have another 5 or 6 BP to invest in ... oh, i don't know. Knowledge skills, Languages, an extra 5BP Quality that suits you. whatever.

...

See, THAT'S a form of powergaming, too: "get the most bang for your buck". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) IOW, getting the same net die pools for less BP / karma / nuyen / whatever, while simultaneously not violating the character's Concept. (And yes, I capitalise that word, because I agree it is a very important part of the creation and RolePlay processes.)

[TeChameleon]

Huh. Oddly enough, I've normally heard those terms used the other way around- munchkin for the 'having fun being awesome' player, and powergamer for the 'must 'win' at all costs!!1!' player.

I'd tend to fall on the concept side of the fence, at least thus far. My first character is a Troll Adept that hits things very, very hard (14d6 for Unarmed, with an average of another +3 for situational modifiers), and that's his main thing. Well, that and being surprisingly sneaky. Mostly because I find the idea of an eight-foot, seven hundred pound troll bouncing around like Jackie Chan (took Exceptional Attribute to get 6 Agility) to be amusing.

Mind you, even the 'must win' players can be amusing, though... at least, if you have something of an appreciation for schadenfreude, heh...

[Kagetenshi]

Munchkins are that other guy. Power Gamers are that other guy too.

Pretty much. A munchkin is a power gamer you don't like—I prefer the term "optimizer", myself.

There is, granted, a certain fringe that can be argued to be distinct—involving things like outright cheating, or using corner cases in the rules to produce blatantly absurd results (like infinite damage, or arbitrage to produce infinite money—really, if you can use the word "infinite" meaningfully while describing it, it probably qualifies)—but in general I'd argue against any distinction between "munchkin" and "power gamer" beyond how insulting the term is.

~J

[Vegetaman]

I got to the point where I was powergaming my human street samurai that I pretty much had a de-facto "must have this" sheet where I could turn a different twist on the core SR3 sammy inside of 20 or 30 minutes. However, jack of all trades, they were not. They were very good at certain things, and no two characters played the same at all and I had loads of fun with two of them in particular (Cougar, the SMG toting typical street samurai with more charisma and intelligence vs. Reaper, the more uncouth street samurai who used his pistol as a back-up to his main weapon, which was a scythe... I actually had the joy of being able to play both of them in the same game once, as the GM wanted to amp up the difficulty level, and that turned out to be loads of fun -- I even use them as NPCs in some of my games as "hired help" for Mr. Johnsons or whatever; my players seem to get a kick out of where they see them turning up). But yes, munchkinizing is terrible and should be put down. However, it was fun turning games on their head with these characters, such as my favorite Cougar moment where he hulk smashed through a wall in a gang hideout... Or Reaper, being tackled by a troll, and throwing them both over the railing and onto the 2 story drop to the corporate lobby below. I didn't build my characters to "win" (though they did excel at killing things, but as a street samurai they damn well better), but to make the game more interesting and support the team, as a lot of people didn't want to play the "street muscle" that they viewed most street samurai's as. The more interesting the story; the better.

[maine75man]

I agree whole heartedly with the sentiment of the OP with one exception. Not all Munchkins are actually power gamers. There are flavors of munchkinism that care less about how the rules work. After all if they bothered to actually understand the rules they might find out the game doesn't actually revolve around them.

[Glyph]

A powergamer is focused on making an efficient character and meeting the challenges of the game. Nothing is wrong with either of those things, but they can be taken too far. Too much focus on raw numbers and efficiency can result in cookie-cutter characters with a certain bland sameness, or characters with lopsided stats and skillsets with glaring holes. And too much focus on beating the challenges of the game can detract from the roleplaying aspect of the game. That's only at the extremes, though. Powergaming does not preclude roleplaying, and in fact some powergamers can be great roleplayers.

A munchkin, on the other hand, only wants to "win" the game. Not the adventure, the game. They seek to gratify their ego at the expense of the rules and verisimilitude of the game, and the fun of the GM and the other players. Munchkins typically hog the spotlight, bend the rules or outright cheat, start fights because their character is "bored", bully the other PCs, and expect to be exempt from any consequences of their actions. Munchkins often don't make good powergamers, because they create hyperspecialists with glaring weaknesses. They usually only wreak havoc with a newer GM who doesn't quite grok how easily he can curb them.

I think a lot of backlash against powergamers comes from players who want to make a quirky, special little snowflake - but then expect to be able to hang with a group of pros and do just as well as them. Spotlight time should be divvied up among the PCs, but not everyone will equally rock out during their spotlight time. If you play a burned-out ex-military guy with light cyber and a wide range of low-rated skills, then expect to be outperformed by the street samurai, or maybe even the face, in combat. Roleplay how this guy wants to improve to be more than a grunt, or how he wants to get cybered up like the big boys, or maybe just have him wallow in self-pity and do BTLs instead. But don't whine that the face rolling 18 dice for her Secura Kompakt is unfair, because guns are supposed to be your thing. I have made characters with glaring weaknesses before, but I expected them to be glaring weaknesses, and not get cut any special breaks for it.

Part of it is expectations. GMs should be clear on the power level they want. If the GM says to keep dice pools in the 12-14 range, then that face with 18 dice in pistols is over the top. But GMs need to be clear - don't expect people to somehow intuit what an "acceptable" level for their character is, especially in a game of literal superhumans. I have heard the complaint that a high-powered character "forces" everyone else to make similar characters to keep up. It seems a bit hypocritical to me, though, because apparently the complainers have no problem with making the player with the high-powered character change his character. Personally, I think the game works better when people focus making the characters they want to play, and having those characters all work together, than having some Harrison Bergeron attitude towards character creation.

[Daylen]

What's next the difference between "Dork" and "Nerd"?

[_Pax._]

Powergaming does not preclude roleplaying, and in fact some powergamers can be great roleplayers.

In fact, I have two personal anecdotes that relate directly to this statement - both relating to one single person, who was a dedicated "rolEplayer", with a decided emphasis on non-mechanics-centered play.

The first instance, with me as the DM of a 3E D&D campaign. After a particularly unexpected (to the players) encounter (a group of Lizardfolk multiclassed as Barbarian/Psychic Warrior - there's some surprising synergy between the two roles, really), during which the party discovered most (but not all) of my backstory and reasoning for that tribe's "unusual" class mix, he went out of his way to praise the encounter, and the story around it - especially since, once the party had moved on, I explained out-of-game what my thought process was in coming up with the idea in the first place. See, I'd started from the angle of "interesting mechanics", and worked hard to forge a story that suited and enabled those mechanics ... not an approach he would previously have taken. He said that encounter had opened his eyes to some of the fun that could be had from that approach, and thanked me for doing so.

A few months later, at the close of his Ravenloft 3E campaign - that he had only admitted me to with some reservations, because he felt I was more an "action and mechanics" oriented player, whereas he was a "story and character development" GM - he took the time to specifically call me out for havign "surprised" him with good, non-combat/action roleplay, adding a fair bit to the story. The funny thing is, my "love of mechanics-based gameplay" ...? As I said to him at the start of the game: if I'm going to go through the trouble of making a character that's more than a dozen adjectives and a name, I just want to have a need to actually look at the stats on the character sheet. Even if it's just to say "Yes, I have 11 ranks of Knowledge: Herbology, so I should be able to figure out what plants the apothecary has hung up to dry" ... I'm happy. My decisions during character generation and advancement have been vindicated, because they had an impact on the progress and outcome of the game session. Huzzah for me."

See, that guy? He was under the misconception that "powergamer" and "munchkin" were the same thing ... and that they really did preclude roleplaying.

I'm just glad I was able to show him otherwise, in a positive manner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Part of it is expectations. GMs should be clear on the power level they want.

I agree - and I think the players should make their collective desires for power-level clear, too. Then,once everyone's on the same page ... even the powergamers will know where the boundaries are, and the good players among them will respect and obey those boundaries.

What's next the difference between "Dork" and "Nerd"?

Both of those terms are pejorative, and rightly so.

However, I honestly believe that "powergamer" shouldn't be a pejorative term. Hence, my starting this thread in the first place.

[binarywraith]

However, I honestly believe that "powergamer" shouldn't be a pejorative term. Hence, my starting this thread in the first place.

It shouldn't be, but enough of that behavior has ruined people's gaming experience that it is.

In short, there are a lot of assholes who subscribe to the powergaming philosophy, so it gets pushback from players who are tired of dealing with assholes.

[_Pax._]

It shouldn't be, but enough of that behavior has ruined people's gaming experience that it is.

clearly you didn't actually read my original post.

It's not "powergaming" that has ruind anyone's experience. It's abuse of it - a.k.a. "being a munchkin" - that has done so.

In short, there are a lot of assholes who subscribe to the powergaming philosophy, so it gets pushback from players who are tired of dealing with assholes.

In short, there are a lot of assholes who assume any powergamer must automatically be a game-ruining munchkin, so I'm trying to give them a bit of pushback because I'm tired of being insulted (without cause) by said assholes. >_<

[binarywraith]

clearly you didn't actually read my original post.

It's not "powergaming" that has ruind anyone's experience. It's abuse of it - a.k.a. "being a munchkin" - that has done so.


In short, there are a lot of assholes who assume any powergamer must automatically be a game-ruining munchkin, so I'm trying to give them a bit of pushback because I'm tired of being insulted (without cause) by said assholes. >_<

No, I meant exactly what I said. Being a non-powergaming player in a game with a powergamer means having to powergame to some extent to remain relevant, even if they are not abusing it to the full potential.

[_Pax._]

No, I meant exactly what I said. Being a non-powergaming player in a game with a powergamer means having to powergame to some extent to remain relevant, even if they are not abusing it to the full potential.

No, it most absolutely does not mean any such damned thing.

If you and I were to be players in the same Shadowrun campaign ... the fact that I am a powergamer would not require you to do anything to "keep up" at all. First off, I'd be careful not to intrude on your/b] niche. (You [b]did read the whole thing about Niche Protection, didn't you?) Whatever role you've selected for your character to fill, that's "your turf". Secondly, before starting to balance numbers and resources, I would find out what power level the game was aiming for ... querying both the GM and my fellow players. That would give me the target I would be aiming for. (I'd also find out the playstyle, "Pink Mohawks of Black Trenchcoats", desired by the group, so my _concept_ fell within bounds, too.)

So, how does that make it necessary for you to "keep up" ...?

...

Try being less adversarial towards your fellow players. Try not stereotyping people you don't know. Try giving people the benefit of the doubt, before assuming they're just a game-wrecking "asshole".

Because otherwise, the only one that epithet really fits? Is you.

[Warlordtheft]

I've always seen munchkinism (those that try to win the game) as pointless in RP games. THe point of roleplaying to me has always been the story of the characters. I will say that the biggest problem I have giving the "spotlight" to some players is that I don't see them take up the clue that it is their time to shine. But then again these are also the types of players who are not as involved RP wise. Here's a list of the types of role-player memes I've encountered over the years (with explanation/comments):

1. Power gamer:Uses the rules to get the best dice pool/skill/bonus possible. Usually focuses the PC in one area of expertise. This needs to be held in check when GMing SR though. NPC's always outnumber PC's and the use of edge can result in TPKs.

2. Rules-lawyer:Uses the rules, including omissions, bad grammer and such to get the best outcome possible for his/her PC. GMs with this quality are good at the mechanics of the game, but have difficulty when the Fluff (such as doing something beyond the rules written) does not match the crunch.

3. Story teller:Person tries to develop a story, as a GM this can be a good way to keep the plotline mooving and develop unique elements to a campaign (other than steal the mcguffin then get paid). A PC may also have a storyline, but within the confines of the group this may lead to a PC stealing the spotlight. The downside for the GM is similar, the GM has to make sure the story allows others to shine and be major players.

4. The FPS (First person shooter) or Personnal Combat Simulator (PCS): They like tactics, they like to kill things, they like to make things go boom. But they tend to ignore RPing.

5. The non conformist: This trait is the person that intentionally likes to take a game off the deep end. The do this partially out of a sense of "you can't make me" take the job. They despise rail roading. Best for more sandbox type campaigns.

6. The simplifier: A GM specific trait, a PC has no real way of doing it other than creating a very simple easy to use PC (Physads for example). GMs of this trait will not spend significant amounts of time looking up rules. They tend to keep things light on rules and try to keep the game moving. THe downside to this is that they may inadvetantly remove a PC's advantage and sometimes the dice rolling can get bland.

7. The house ruler: Likes to make house rules to compensate for real or percieved rules deficiencies. Not good for playing open games, and sometimes the changs result in a cascade of house rules (Chang X-so you need to chang ABCDEF).

8. Munchkin:Tries to be OP (regardless of the rules). They have a tendancy to be spotlight hogs, and if the rules don't allow them to do it they ask for an exception.

9. The wall flower: Tends to not engage in party discussion/planning or RP. Enjoys just being there, but does like to contribute to the story line when they feel appropriate. Sometimes when story tellers and wall flowers mix, you as GM have to make sure the wall flowers are given their opportunities. Otherwise you'll loose them to distractions.

10. The boss: Tends to either want to always lead the group or they tend to do so irrespective if their PC could be the boss.


I'm sure theres more, but I'm drawing a blank ATM. Note a person could have some of these traits, and vary degrees of these traits.

[binarywraith]

No, it most absolutely does not mean any such damned thing.

If you and I were to be players in the same Shadowrun campaign ... the fact that I am a powergamer would not require you to do anything to "keep up" at all. First off, I'd be careful not to intrude on your/b] niche. (You [b]did read the whole thing about Niche Protection, didn't you?) Whatever role you've selected for your character to fill, that's "your turf". Secondly, before starting to balance numbers and resources, I would find out what power level the game was aiming for ... querying both the GM and my fellow players. That would give me the target I would be aiming for. (I'd also find out the playstyle, "Pink Mohawks of Black Trenchcoats", desired by the group, so my _concept_ fell within bounds, too.)

So, how does that make it necessary for you to "keep up" ...?

...

Try being less adversarial towards your fellow players. Try not stereotyping people you don't know. Try giving people the benefit of the doubt, before assuming they're just a game-wrecking "asshole".

Because otherwise, the only one that epithet really fits? Is you.

That's sure a lot of angry invective, there. You seem a bit touchy on this subject, had problems with people calling you out for your play style in the past?

That said, your entire first post goes on with the main reason that the powergamer mindset annoys me fairly often. It is based around the idea that every player does and should want to be maximally optimized for a particular party role, so as to shine in their 'niche', and that other players may need to be told that they've done so poorly and how to improve. There are a number of players out there, myself most often included, who are very much put off by that attitude, as we tend to construct characters with a personal narrative, whose skill sets are based on that narrative.

I may generally be too polite to tell someone to piss off when they start going off on how I could better optimize my character, but it is the quickest way to ensure that I have other plans next time game is scheduled.

[Cochise]

Munchkins are that other guy. Power Gamers are that other guy too.

I'd be more specific and say: Munchkins are that other guy who you despise for whatever reason you might have. Power Gamers are that other guy who you at least tolerate ... also for whatever reason you might have

[thorya]

I always thought it was powergaming when I did it and munchkining when someone else does it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

That's sure a lot of angry invective, there. You seem a bit touchy on this subject, had problems with people calling you out for your play style in the past?

No. I just have problems with people like you, calling me an asshole.

Did you seriously expect a different response, when you decided to throw insults like that around?

That said, your entire first post goes on with the main reason that the powergamer mindset annoys me fairly often. It is based around the idea that every player does and should want to be maximally optimized for a particular party role, so as to shine in their 'niche', and that other players may need to be told that they've done so poorly and how to improve. There are a number of players out there, myself most often included, who are very much put off by that attitude, as we tend to construct characters with a personal narrative, whose skill sets are based on that narrative.

Here yu go again, assuming a whole host of behaviors to me, that I've never suggested I have. Especially the crack about "other players may need to be told" jack over squat.

I may generally be too polite to tell someone to piss off when they start going off on how I could better optimize my character, but it is the quickest way to ensure that I have other plans next time game is scheduled.

Since you started off calling powergamers "assholes" as a group, in a thread started by a self-avowed powergamer ...? No, I don't believe you're "too polite" at all. >:|



Now, sinc eyou avoided it the first time, let's try this again:

If you and I were to be players in the same Shadowrun campaign ... the fact that I am a powergamer would not require you to do anything to "keep up" at all. First off, I'd be careful not to intrude on your niche. (You did read the whole thing about Niche Protection, didn't you?) Whatever role you've selected for your character to fill, that's "your turf". Secondly, before starting to balance numbers and resources, I would find out what power level the game was aiming for ... querying both the GM and my fellow players. That would give me the target I would be aiming for. (I'd also find out the playstyle, "Pink Mohawks of Black Trenchcoats", desired by the group, so my _concept_ fell within bounds, too.)

So, how does that make it necessary for you to "keep up" ...?

Care to actualy address a point I've made, directly to you? And answer the question I've asked, directly of you?

Or are you just here to troll?

Because if it's the latter rather than the former, I guess it's time to see if this forum has an /ignore feature. *sigh*