 Ethical question from a GM, I need feedback from DumpShockers |
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 Jul 22 2005, 06:59 PM
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#51
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Chicago Survivor  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033  |
What if his skills as he thought he knew them were contrucs of the SK, and when it leaves, his real self emerges (think Star Trek Next Gen when the crew was wiped and didn't know if they could do somehting until they tried to)
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Jul 22 2005, 08:30 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
While I like the idea in principle, that would really be messing with his character. I'm just not willing to do that to an established PC.
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Jul 22 2005, 10:33 PM
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#53
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
One other option is to brainstorm with the player in question. After all, they are there to tell a story too, maybe they already have some good ideas, or can give you some guidelines as to where they are are comfortable with the plot going.
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Jul 23 2005, 12:43 AM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
Okay, so I just had a light bulb go on.
The cranial deck did cost essence. However, when he go some of his other ware installed, they put the cranial deck in. Some of his other ware is better grade. That takes care of the low essence problem. Also, that means you'll never have to deal with what grade anything is. Unless he dies and his teammates sell his corpse to a chopshop. :-) Do you have both "threats" books? One of them has something about Deus sleeper agents. He could be one of the agents on the outside before or after the shutdown. Hell, if you're after shutdown, the thing in his head could be a big chunk of Dues. When he's not running, how much cold storage would it take? And if he was using some of the guys wetware to store himself, that would give him amnesia and maybe a psycological disorder when Deus rips free. :vegm: And how is a cranial cyberdeck NOT cannon cyberware? |
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Jul 23 2005, 02:54 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 10-July 05 Member No.: 7,492 |
It's not the deck itself, but the fact that it has no essense cost that's not cannon. |
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Jul 23 2005, 03:49 AM
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#56
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
For that though, he would have to have been in the arcology, getting Deus 'downloaded' into his wetware (check out Brainscan, at then end). Following the SK as an enemy though, if it's in a cranial cyber deck, then it's naturally connected to his brain. So, of course, is that cyber arm. If you decide to make the SK an internal enemy, you could also have them contest control of the arm. Really depends on where you want to go with that. Also think about what other cyber the character has, and which peices it may be able to access. He'll be dreamin if bioware when it's all over. ;) |
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Jul 23 2005, 04:05 AM
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#57
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
the "improved grade of other cyberware" is the best option... even in a game where GM and players had an adversarial relationship... Nobody complained when they found their reflexes were actually beta grade
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Jul 23 2005, 05:29 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 6-March 03 Member No.: 4,211 |
Yeah, I like the idea of tweeking the other 'ware till the deck fits as well. If it's not DNI I can certainly see it costing 'less' essence then it would otherwise but even a big chunk of cyberdeck in your head not connected to your wetware is going to interfere somewhat IMO.
The more I read over this thread Velocity the more I start to agree that addiction's not the way to go. Enemy, Amnesia, something along those lines. The long haul thing is just plain harsh though. Addiction in SR is evil. |
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Jul 23 2005, 06:51 AM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
I was refering to the ite In Threats 2. (I think it was 2 not 1). There are a large group of people participating in the recompiling of Deus, most without having nessissarily being inside the arcology. Is it just me, or are the threats getting more and more terriying in this game? At first a hellhound was about the worst you would get. Shedem, AI, Horrors, and psyco bloodmages everywhere. Almost makes me nostolgic for 1st edition. Nah, just kidding. :-) |
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Jul 23 2005, 09:16 AM
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#60
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
those people were all in the arcology, and had Deus loaded into their wetware. THey're not all part of some grand conspiracy. Well, willingly at least. Like the example of the guy in Threats 2, many had no clue what was happening for most of the time. Then there are others, like Ronin, that take amore active role. If you don't have Brainscan, I suggest you get it. IT's a cool run (well, a lot of cool runs really), and answers a lot of questions about Deus and the arc. The end fluff starts off the T2 section really.
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Jul 23 2005, 02:06 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
That's certainly an option, though I'd like to be able to surprise him with the developments as well. :)
Shades of Evil Dead? :)
I concur; people have been suggesting some excellent alternate options and I'm becoming less attached to 'Addiction' the more I read here. |
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Jul 23 2005, 08:04 PM
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#62
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Actually yeah, that was the first thing that came to mind. Just a little less cheesy.' "I'm bad Ash, and you're good Ash. You're goodie-little-too-shoos!You're goodie-little-too-shoos!" |
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Jul 24 2005, 01:06 AM
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#63
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
I personally think this is a great plot device. I wouldn't mind if a character I created with those flaws had this subplot. It would be fun.
On flaws: I think allowing players to take flaws that never effect them in game is more game breaking and a greater disservice to the players than pushing thier limits a little bit and letting them role play it. On Essence: Deffinately adjust the other ware's grade(s) to fit in the new stuff. Maybe the street doc or clinic that implanted his other ware is somehow in league with whoever it is that wanted to implant an SK in his head. (BTW the whole "who's behind it" aspect is something you haven't yet mentioned. Do you have any ideas there? besides Deus) On New Flaws: I kind of like the fragmented personality/amnesia aspect fistandantilus3.0 mentioned on the first page. I'm thinking you don't need long haul. The cranial deck must have a RAS override that the SK can access; maybe this is modified to make the runner black out, but still allow the SK to do whatever it is you were going to have him do. Maybe this experimental modification isn't completely effective and the runner "wakes up" with vauge fragmented memories of doing thing he doesn't quite remember. The Scorched conditioning may be a crucial part of how this system works. Maybe the RAS kicks on, the SK gives him some kind of simsense stimuli and he goes into a highly suggestive hypnotic state where in he will do whatever the SK wants but doesn't remember... "Man, I had the weirdest dream last night... I dreampt that I bitch-slapped the head of a local Yakuza ring... Hey whos that angry Japanese dude coming this way?" :] This could explain Enemy Flaws, or weird Compulsions or Amnesia. |
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Jul 24 2005, 03:46 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Okay, so it seems that a consensus has emerged on at least one aspect of this plan... :) While I'm still not completely convinced (I still think handwaving it to zero Essence is just plain easier), I will definitely take your arguments into consideration. Regarding the drug Long Haul and my initial inclination toward it: the PC is using the drug right now, in-game. We've been playing for a while and the character started--of his own free will--using the drug for extended "matrix legwork" before big runs. That's where I got the idea for an SK, actually: I started wondering what was happening in his brain afterwards, when he was sleeping off the effects of the drug? I'm certainly not married to the idea of using the chemical or exploring the effects of addiction, but I thought it would be cool to tie the Flaw into actions the PC was taking of his own volition... |
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Jul 24 2005, 04:51 AM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
Ah, but that's the cool part. You don't have to adjust anything. That is the cyberware he wanted, thinks he has, and can use. How the hell is he gonna know if some of it is better than what he paid for? :vegm: On the addiction note, I'd say give him something else. It sounds like he's gonna end up with this anyway. Unfortunatly, this may kill him before the SK gets out. I have a similar problem with one of my group. I've got his story line tied into my overall plans, and if he dies I'm boned. Wonderful when this drek happens, neh? fistandantilus3.0, I didn't realise they were all in the arc, I thought some of them were "conditioned" by others afterward. Hmmm.... now there is a fun idea.... And again I realise my players are going to hate me the next time we play. :evil: |
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Jul 24 2005, 05:20 AM
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#66
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
well if the guy was taking Long Haul in the first place, of his own accord, screw it, apply normal addiction rules, and he'll screw himself over, no worries. Don't bother pushing him into it w/ the SK. Let him do it himself. Maybe he'll learn somethin'
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Jul 24 2005, 06:20 AM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Actually, the addiction code for Long Haul is ridiculously low. I did a little arithmetic a few months ago and figured that he'd have to take it another 20 times or so before there was even a remote chance of addiction. Seeing as how he's only taken it four or five times over the past dozen runs, there's no way he going to "naturally" develop an addiction in the course of this campaign.
:D Funny, this is very close to where my thoughts have been going for the past few days. It gets worse, actually. The character's gone to great lengths ensuring all his cyberware is tightly linked via routers, DNI links, etc. The SK could easily access the Image Link in his cybereyes, the Sound Filters in his cyberears, his internal phone, his cyberlimb... his Smartlink... his Wired Reflexes. :eek: What's worse than an SK running on your cranial deck? An SK runing on your cranial deck that can control what you see, hear and say over the phone to your comrades, contacts and rivals. :vegm: |
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Jul 24 2005, 07:12 AM
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#68
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
And worse, one that can access your weapons' systems and your wires, so he can move and shoot for you.
Actually, if the relationship turned symbiotic, that could be handy. Taken too much Stun damage? Let your SK take over for you. He dosen't suffer from your Stun, because he can't feel pain. |
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Jul 24 2005, 02:32 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Here's the thing: in my campaign, the Arcology Shutdown has not yet happened. Deus isn't even a myth yet--the name hasn't come up and the PCs are exploring a completely different plotline (working a dangerous game among some Yakuza, actually--but that's neither here nor there). I do want to run the Arc Shutdown though and I've began laying the groundwork for it, slipping little news items into the e-mail postings I send out to them about hiccups in the SCIRE security, etc. I would like this SK-on-the-brain to tie into Deus, the otaku, the events in Brainscan (which I own, love, and can't wait to run) and the "contingency" plan in Threats 2. I'm planning to change Deus' plans from canon, anyway... |
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Jul 25 2005, 05:08 AM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
So I've been re-reading Brainscan this weekend... can anyone think of any compellig reasons why the SK in this PC's head couldn't be Morgan/Megaera? I mean, given that I'm already planning to modify canon significantly.
The PC could stand in for Dodger.... or am I nuts? |
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Jul 25 2005, 09:07 AM
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#71
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
well, yeah , one. If you haven't read the entry in Threats 2, your question is understandable. But the network refered to in there, and by Mortax includes Deus and Megaera. They're fighting for supremacy over the network to see which one gets to exist. I'm think the cover of System Failure might be a hint on that. So if you're looking to change canon, depending on how that all pans out, you could have a lot of reworking to do.
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Jul 25 2005, 04:17 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
I have read Threats 2 and I don't really see a problem with my idea. For "The Network" to exist, all that's required is for Brainscan to end the way it's scripted:
[ Spoiler ] As long as I got Megaera out of the PC's head some time before then, it could work--couldn't it? I like the idea because it provides a solid link to the whole Deus / Arcology story and eliminates one of the problems with Brainscan: the focus on powerful NPCs during critical moments of the story. Instead of Dodger hogging the limelight, a PC could play that pivotal role. |
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Jul 26 2005, 04:30 AM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
I'm glad to see that you're willing to overlook the rules to make a good story. The only concern I have about your original proposal is if you're railroading the character with the flaw-swap. Are you going to tie the potential change into a choice that the character has to make? The player has to have some part in determining his character's fate. Of course he doesn't need to know what the potential outcomes will be, just as long as he feels he's actively participating.
For example, after the PC learns about his Mr. Hyde, he finds that his only chance to have it safely removed is by attending blah blah clinic blah blah secret blah blah plot device. Choosing this risky endeavour will cause his brain-buddy to be traded up for other flaws. However, the character could just as easily choose to seek out the mystical blah blah training blah blah mind control blah blah and learn to live with the flaw he has. Or something like that. Thing is, looking at it from the player's perspective>> I want a character with a particular flaw; my GM must not approve, because at some opportune moment he rolls a crapload of dice and tells me that I wake-up with a different flaw. As a player, that'd upset me. |
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Jul 26 2005, 02:06 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
You make a good point, but I have no intention of forcing a particular solution on to the character. I abhor railroading and I always try to leave my players as many options as possible. For instance, the PC may try to negotiate with the SK and arrange a partnership; he may to double-cross it; he may find himself completely in its thrall if he's not careful; he may decide to risk the consequences of emergency brain surgery; he may evolve into a gestalt cybermind (unlikely, but stranger things have happened); etcetera. While there will be a Flaw-swap at some point (this is pretty much mandated by the description of "Mysterious Cyberware"), I have no intention of forcing a particular outcome. |
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Jul 26 2005, 03:38 PM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
Why would there be a Flaw swap. Why not a simple Karma buy out and the risks of surgery? Seeing as how you are planning (if not actually executing) a Drug Addiction and a Day Job with no nuyen payback. Personally the idea sounds great for a table top game where the player knows it might be coming but has the skill to RP his character with no leak of Player knowledge to Character knowledge. If I were you I would have disallowed Mysterious Cyberware on the premise that he has less than 1 essence and when he said Scorched I would say Cyberphobia.
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