Pun-Pun and Bloodzilla, And other infinitely broken characters Options

[Cheops]

Full Steampunk outfit, all PPS pieces, full body form fit, gel packs and a troll.

[Glyph]

The martial arts rules have spawned much debate over how high the DV bonuses can go, whether shock gloves or hardliner gloves allow a martial artist to use two-weapon style with unarmed combat, and whether you can keep "borrowing" extra actions without limit (full defense as an interrupt action, then riposte, then finishing move, etc.), or can only borrow your very next action.

But since this is about creating broken characters, I have only one suggestion for the melee ork. Replace one level of combat sense with one level of counterstrike. Because you will be getting full defense every time you are attacked, which means you will usually be getting quite a few more successes than the attacker does. And the beauty of counterstrike is that it turns all of those successes into extra dice that you can use when you attack.

[ArkonC]

I don't have the writeup, but a friend of mine once made a Dodge/Soak Troll...
Threw something like 15 dice to dodge (just reaction and combat sense and the like), a lot of acrobatics dice with synthcardium and the like and as if that wasn't enough, he also had tons of body, bone density, dermal seath and mystic armor, rolling something like 20 dice so soak when naked...
Basically, anything that would be able to hurt him, would obliterate any other character...

EDIT: This was out of chargen, so it could even improve...

[HentaiZonga]

The martial arts rules have spawned much debate over how high the DV bonuses can go, whether shock gloves or hardliner gloves allow a martial artist to use two-weapon style with unarmed combat, and whether you can keep "borrowing" extra actions without limit (full defense as an interrupt action, then riposte, then finishing move, etc.), or can only borrow your very next action.

But since this is about creating broken characters, I have only one suggestion for the melee ork. Replace one level of combat sense with one level of counterstrike. Because you will be getting full defense every time you are attacked, which means you will usually be getting quite a few more successes than the attacker does. And the beauty of counterstrike is that it turns all of those successes into extra dice that you can use when you attack.

Question: Where is the "full DV every time you are attacked" coming from?

[Glyph]

samuelbeckett's melee build uses hardliner gloves to make his hands count as "weapons", so that he can use the two-weapon fighting style maneuver, which lets you use the rules for full defense to parry with the off hand to get full defense that doesn't cost an action. As I said in the first paragraph, it's a rules interpretation that not every GM would allow.

Still, if the GM nixed it, you could change it to dual-wielded Katars. Even making one of them a weapon focus with a personalized grip, it would still be a cheaper build overall. You would lose the insane DV, but roll more to hit, and be able to replace some of the unarmed damage-boosting adept powers with more combat sense.

[samuelbeckett]

The martial arts rules have spawned much debate over how high the DV bonuses can go, whether shock gloves or hardliner gloves allow a martial artist to use two-weapon style with unarmed combat, and whether you can keep "borrowing" extra actions without limit (full defense as an interrupt action, then riposte, then finishing move, etc.), or can only borrow your very next action.

But since this is about creating broken characters, I have only one suggestion for the melee ork. Replace one level of combat sense with one level of counterstrike. Because you will be getting full defense every time you are attacked, which means you will usually be getting quite a few more successes than the attacker does. And the beauty of counterstrike is that it turns all of those successes into extra dice that you can use when you attack.

Nice - add a simple broken Time Geas in (powers don't work between 4:30 and 4:31 in the morning for example) and we can actually up the Combat Sense to 4, up the Penetrating Strike to 3 and add level of Counterstrike. The build also already has Riposte.

So 31 dice on the Full Defense, against even a munched non-adept opponent melee dice pool of 17 to attack, means on average 4 to 5 extra successes. That then means an instant retaliation attack with 23 dice pool. So anyone with less than a 20 dice Full Defense is going to have to resist at least 15P with -3AP. Which is in the realms of insta kill damage on anyone with a Body of 4 or less.

If anyone is interested in tweaking their GM with a melee monster, I'll happily post the full build.

And Glyph is right - the principles work just as well with Katars, and the Martial Arts can be shifted around to give extra Blades DV and Melee Parry rather than Melee Block. You will end up losing at least 7DV, but given the Counterstrike bonuses you would still be laying out silly damage.

[Zak]

If anyone is interested in tweaking their GM with a melee monster, I'll happily post the full build.

DP crunching builds are always welcome (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HentaiZonga]

Question: I'm working with a player's build who is explicitly a weaponless gymnastic fighter (Capoeira and Parkour). Is there any way for her to get a full gymnastic Defense every turn?

[Fortune]

Well, if you are among those that think that Hardliner Gloves would qualify for the Two-Weapon Style Maneuver, then just have the character wear similar style footwear (or steel-shanked boots) for the same effect.

[HentaiZonga]

Well, if you are among those that think that Hardliner Gloves would qualify for the Two-Weapon Style Maneuver, then just have the character were similar style footwear (or steel-shanked boots) for the same effect.

... that is BEAUTIFUL. Funny enough - the character has already requested orichalcum-heeled (and -toed) stilettos as a Weapon Focus.

[samuelbeckett]

Question: I'm working with a player's build who is explicitly a weaponless gymnastic fighter (Capoeira and Parkour). Is there any way for her to get a full gymnastic Defense every turn?

Unfortunately not - unless she maximises on IP and always sacrifices enough to Full Gymnastics Dodge to cover all her opponents IPs. The only way to get Full Defense up permanently is Two Weapon Style, and that relies on the GM's interpretation of a 'weapon', and only applies to Full Parry actions (so only effective against melee attacks).

The best alternative that doesn't take RAW hard over a barrel would be to create a manuever that mimics Two Weapon Style but allows use of Full Gymnastics Dodge rather than Full Parry, with the explicit condition that it is only effective in melee. As Full Gymnastics Dodge pools can get higher than Full Parry pools it will likely be more powerful than Two Weapon Style, but does require two skills to be advanced rather than one, so it is reasonably balanced.

I wouldn't suggest allowing Full Gymnastics Dodge against all attacks, as that would be far too powerful. With 30+ dice pools being emininently achievable, allowing someone to do that and still retain their full IP for attack would be gamebreaking, as it is rare for attack DP to exceed 20. The character would effectively be invulnerable.

[HentaiZonga]

Unfortunately not - unless she maximises on IP and always sacrifices enough to Full Gymnastics Dodge to cover all her opponents IPs. The only way to get Full Defense up permanently is Two Weapon Style, and that relies on the GM's interpretation of a 'weapon', and only applies to Full Parry actions (so only effective against melee attacks).

The best alternative that doesn't take RAW hard over a barrel would be to create a manuever that mimics Two Weapon Style but allows use of Full Gymnastics Dodge rather than Full Parry, with the explicit condition that it is only effective in melee. As Full Gymnastics Dodge pools can get higher than Full Parry pools it will likely be more powerful than Two Weapon Style, but does require two skills to be advanced rather than one, so it is reasonably balanced.

I wouldn't suggest allowing Full Gymnastics Dodge against all attacks, as that would be far too powerful. With 30+ dice pools being emininently achievable, allowing someone to do that and still retain their full IP for attack would be gamebreaking, as it is rare for attack DP to exceed 20. The character would effectively be invulnerable.

Well, as mentioned above, they've got a pretty interesting idea for a 'Weapon' (and are already willing to take the very specific 'Exotic Melee Weapon: High-Heeled Shoes' Skill for it); considering that Full Defense explicitly sets Full Gymnastics Dodge as one of its options, I think I'm going to go with your second approach. Rather than "create a maneuver to mimic Two Weapon Style", though, I'm just going to rule that Two Weapon Style already covers this, but the player has to pick an explicit type of Full Defense (either Full Dodge, Full Parry or Gymnastic Dodge) when purchasing Two Weapon Style. Also, I'm not sure that allowing it to be used outside of melee is overpowered, considering that as you said, they have to max out two skills, and they already have the -3 'Defender in Melee Combat' penalty and have to choose a -2 off-hand (off-foot?) penalty for either their attack or their defense. Even with an insane Agility+Melee, Reaction+Dodge, and Gymnastics (let's say all absurdly hard-maxed at 15+9, 10+9, and 10), that's (10+10-3)=17 dice to defend with, and (15+9-2)=22 dice to attack with. Throw in the Capoeira and Ninjitsu bonuses to Gymnastic Dodge and you're at 19 dice vs. ranged (although you can get up to a pretty hefty 34 Gymnastic Dodge pool vs. melee attacks). Throw in Reakt and you're at 21 vs. Ranged and 36 vs. melee, which is starting to get absurd, but still nowhere near 30+ for ranged attacks, and we're talking about someone who's got Genetic Optimization and hard-max on Reaction, Aptitude and hard-max on Gymnastics, and hard-max on Dodge with 3 dice worth of bonus in each. Of course, since she'll never not be Gymnastic Dodging, we can take that as her Dodge specialization, pretty much guaranteeing another +2 to her melee dodge (to 38). So she becomes pretty damn near unstoppable in melee, but still more 'terrifying' than 'invincible' when attacked at range.

Question - by Full Gymnastics Dodge, do you mean Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics? Because it's pretty clear to me that that's not how Gymnastic Dodge works - on pg.150 of SR4, it says "Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks". I'm pretty sure "dice pool" refers to "the dice pool they would otherwise be rolling", which in the case of a ranged attack is just Reaction.

[Fortune]

Even if I were to allow Melee Weapons to apply to Two-Weapon Style, I would never allow the Maneuver to grant free Full Defense outside of Melee. If the character wanted to use Full Defense against ranged attacks, he would have to use the normal rules, including giving up all other non-Free Actions while doing so. In other words, no free attacks while using Full Defense against ranged attacks.

[HentaiZonga]

Even if I were to allow Melee Weapons to apply to Two-Weapon Style, I would never allow the Maneuver to grant free Full Defense outside of Melee. If the character wanted to use Full Defense against ranged attacks, he would have to use the normal rules, including giving up all other non-Free Actions while doing so. In other words, no free attacks while using Full Defense against ranged attacks.

*nods* that sounds generally reasonable.

... hrm. I just realized - I completely forgot about the Combat Sense power, which is going to add another +(Magic) dice to all Dodge tests. So somewhere around 25 vs. melee, and up into the 40's at range. Wow.

[samuelbeckett]

OK, here is that melee Ork build in all its glory...weak spots include the lack of Edge and no Infiltration skills, although a little karma focused into that post char-gen should shore him up. Any further optimisation would be welcomed...

Norris

Build Points: 400

Race: Ork (20 BP)

Attributes: (180 BP)

Bod: 7
Agi: 5 (6)
Rea: 4 (5)
Str: 5
Cha: 2
Int: 3
Log: 2
Wil: 3
Edge: 1

Essence: 4.0
Magic: 4
Initiative: 7 [8]
Passes: 2

Active Skills: (78 BP)

Gymnastics (Tumbling): 4 (6)
Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts): 6[9] (11)
Con (Fast Talk): 2 (4)
Pilot (Groundcraft): 1 (3)
Perception (Visual): 4 (6)

Knowledge Skills:

Pit Fighting (Aztlan): 3 (5)
Sports (MMA): 1 (3)
Seattle Street Gangs: 1
Security Design (Physical): 1 (3)

Languages

Spanish: N
English: 4
Or'zet: 2

Qualities: (0 BP)

Adept (5 BP)
Martial Arts:
Karate (15 BP; +1 Unarmed Combat DV, +2 Melee Block)
Boxing (10 BP; +2 Unarmed Combat DV)
Wildcat (5 BP; +1 Unarmed Combat DV)

Simsense Vertigo (-10 BP)
Sensitive System (-15 BP)
Spirit Bane (Watcher Spirits, -10 BP)
Geas (Time; Affects all adept powers; Broken from 04:30 to 05:00 in the morning due to 'bio-rhythms')

Manuevers: (12 BP)

Two Weapon Style; Riposte; Finishing Move; Groundfighting; Watchful Guard; Kick; Blind Fighting

Contacts: (8 BP)

Corporate Wage Mage (C5/L3)

Adept Powers: (4 PP, equivalent 5.25 PP with Geas)

Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat) 2 (1 PP)
Combat Sense 4 (2 PP)
Critical Strike 4 (1 PP)
Penetrating Strike 3 (0.75 PP)
Counterstrike 1 (0.5 PP)

Resources: (39 BP)

195,000 Y

Bioware: (2 Essence; 35.6 BP of the resources)

Bone Density Augmentation 4
Synaptic Booster 1
Muscle Toner 1
Reflex Recorder (Unarmed Combat)

Lifestyle:

Medium (1 month prepaid)

Gear:

Sony Emperor Commlink with Renraku Icho O/S (Response 2, Signal 3, Firewall 2, System 2)
- Skinlink, Subvocal Mic, Biometric Reader
Hardliner Gloves
Armour for runs:
- Industrious Winterized Coverall with PPP Arm, Leg, Forearm, Vitals and Shin protection (B8/I9 with R2 Fire Resistance, Chem Resistance and Insulation), over Full FFBA with R4 Fire Resistance and Insulation (B6/I2) - total B14/I11
Armour for bodyguarding/discreet runs:
- Synergist Business Line Suit (Suit Jacket, Slacks, High Collar Shirt; B5/I3), over Full FFBA with R4 Fire Resistance and Insulation (B6/I2) - total B11/I5
Fake SIN (R3, Credit Account with 1300 Y)
Medium Lifestyle (1 month prepaid)

Combat Statistics:

Unarmed Combat Attack DP: 17
Melee Block DP: 22
Full Parry DP: 31
Ranged Dodge DP: 9
Full Gymnastics Dodge DP: 15

Unarmed Combat Base DV: 14P/-3 AP

Damage Resistance (best armour)
Base DP: 11
Ballistic DP: 25
Impact DP: 22

Background: (complete rubbish made up of the top of my head to give him some reason for being...)

Born in Aztlan in a slum, parents minor league criminals who died when he was 10. Soon realised he was bigger, stronger and faster than others, taken under the wing of a criminal who organised street and pit fights. Rapidly proved himself an able fighter, training in a variety of styles, killing opponents with ease and making his 'owner' a lot of money. When his 'owner' realised Norris's powers failed in the early hours of the morning, he arranged for a chop-doc to implant some bioware to enhance his capabilites during those times, and to counter the enhanced individuals Norris was increasingly meeting as he rose up the pit fighting ranks.

A wage mage with a thing for gambling on pit fights soon noticed him, and began to bet heavily on him. However, an attack of conscience, combined with thoughts that Norris may make a useful asset for his corp, led him to contact Norris and conspire to have him kill his 'owner' and escape the pit fighting life to come to Seattle and work as a close protective bodyguard.

Attempting to settle in Seattle with a fake ID, Norris began to work as a bodyguard for a Johnson. However, an unfortunate incident where 'excessive' force was used led to Norris's employer deciding he may be better as a deniable asset than a bodyguard. Norris is content to let others be the 'brains' of any run, instead providing muscle and being the go to guy for 'weapon free' wetwork. He feels a loyalty to both the wage mage who freed him and the Johnson he used to bodyguard for, but is beginning to understand the concept of 'honour amongst thieves' and is starting to extend his trust to other runners. Norris is quiet and thoughtful unless provoked, and is eager to develop more knowledge and skills outside of unarmed combat.

[samuelbeckett]

Question - by Full Gymnastics Dodge, do you mean Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics? Because it's pretty clear to me that that's not how Gymnastic Dodge works - on pg.150 of SR4, it says "Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks". I'm pretty sure "dice pool" refers to "the dice pool they would otherwise be rolling", which in the case of a ranged attack is just Reaction.

Gymnastics Dodge is an option only for Full Defense. And as you pointed out, it adds Gymnastics to the base dice pool for ranged defense, which is Reaction. So Reaction + Gymnastics. However, with hard maxed Reaction, hard maxed Gymnastics, Combat Sense and the numerous things that add dice pool modifiers to Gymnastics, you could easily achieve a DP of 30+ for Ranged Defense (10 Reaction, 12 Gymnastics with Specialization, 6 Combat Sense, 2 Reakt, 1 Enhanced Articulation, 3 Synthacardium is 34 DP, not all achievable at char gen but 30 + is eminently doable).

[HentaiZonga]

Gymnastics Dodge is an option only for Full Defense. And as you pointed out, it adds Gymnastics to the base dice pool for ranged defense, which is Reaction. So Reaction + Gymnastics. However, with hard maxed Reaction, hard maxed Gymnastics, Combat Sense and the numerous things that add dice pool modifiers to Gymnastics, you could easily achieve a DP of 30+ for Ranged Defense (10 Reaction, 12 Gymnastics with Specialization, 6 Combat Sense, 2 Reakt, 1 Enhanced Articulation, 3 Synthacardium is 34 DP, not all achievable at char gen but 30 + is eminently doable).

Hrm. I did forget the Synthcardium. Also, you forgot Neo-EPO and Synch.

Let's see how this tallies:
Reaction = 10
Gymnastics = 10 (+2 Specialization)
Combat Sense = 6
Improved Sense (Balance) = 1
Reakt = 2
Neo-EPO = 1
Synch = 1
Enhanced Articulation = 1
Synthcardium = 3
Martial Arts (Capoeira) - Gymnastic Dodge = 1
Martial Arts (Ninjitsu) - Gymnastic Dodge = 1

So we get 10+10+2+6+1+2+1+1+1+3+1+1 = 39. Impressive.

Of course, to get this, we need:
-- Pre-chargen: 200 BP --
Adept = 5 BP
Reaction 7 = 75 BP
Magic 1 = 20 BP (raised to 3, then dropped back to 1 due to Essence loss)
Aptitude: Gymnastics = 10 BP
Gymnastics 7 = 32 BP
Gymnastics Specialization: Tumbling = 2 BP
Martial Arts: Capoeira - Gymnastic Dodge = 5 BP
Martial Arts: Ninjitsu - Gymnastic Dodge = 5 BP
Martial Arts Maneuver: Two Weapon Style = 2 BP
Martial Arts Maneuver: Evade = 2 BP
Genetic Optimization: Reaction = (0.2 Essence, 45K Nuyen) = 9 BP
Enhanced Articulation = (0.3 Essence, 40K Nuyen) = 8 BP
Synthcardium 3 = (0.3 Essence, 30K Nuyen) = 6 BP
Reakt = (0.4 Essence, 30K Nuyen) = 6 BP
Neo-EPO = (0.2 Essence, 25K Nuyen) = 5 BP
Synch = (0.3 Essence, 30K Nuyen) = 6 BP
Reflex Recorder (Gymnastics) = (0.1 Essence, 10K Nuyen) = 2 BP
Combat Sense 1 = 0.5 Power
Improved Ability (Gymnasics) 1 = 0.25 Power
Improved Sense (Balance) = 0.25 Power

-- Post-chargen: 81 Karma, 480K Nuyen --
Magic 2 = 6 Karma (pre-Synaptic Booster)
Synaptic Booster 3 Alpha = (1.2 Essence, 480K Nuyen)
Magic 3 = (6+9=15 Karma, +2 Power)
Combat Sense 3 = 1.0 Power
Improved Ability (Gymnasics) 3 = 0.5 Power
(Total Leftover Power: 0.5)
Initiation x3 = (8+10+12=30 Karma, +3 Power)
Magic 6 = (12+15+18=30 Karma, +3 Power)
Combat Sense 6 = 1.5 Power
(Total Leftover Power: 5.0)

Your Essence costs are 0.2+0.1+1.2+0.3+0.3+0.4+0.2+0.3=3.0; dropping you to 3.0 Essence and a max Magic of 3, hence the necessity to Initiate 3 times. I'm assuming everything but the Synaptic Booster is picked up at chargen (making the chargen Essence 4.2); the Booster gets bought after Magic is raised to 2, dropping Essence to 3.0 and Magic back to 1. Then up Magic to 3, Initiate 3 times, and up Magic to 6. Gain Power Points during each Initiation, and you have 9 total Power Points to play with. 4 of those get eaten up with 6 levels of Combat Sense, 3 levels of Improved Ability (Gymnastics), and Improved Sense (Balance). You now have a ranged Dodge score of 39.

Did I do all that right?

[samuelbeckett]

Would need to look in more detail, but I think your karma amounts are a little off - particularly unless I am missing something the initiation is 10 + (grade x 3), so 13+16+19 or 48 karma just for initiation to grade 3 - unless you were using some discounts due to group initiation?

[HentaiZonga]

Would need to look in more detail, but I think your karma amounts are a little off - particularly unless I am missing something the initiation is 10 + (grade x 3), so 13+16+19 or 48 karma just for initiation to grade 3 - unless you were using some discounts due to group initiation?

Group & Ordeal all the way, baby!

[Fortune]

As FrankTrollman and others have pointed out, the rules literally state that it is the reduction from Groups and Ordeals that is rounded up. As such, when a character Initiates for the first time with both a Group and an Ordeal, the normal cost of 13 Karma is reduced by 40% (round up), or 5.6 rounded to 6, for a final cost of 7 Karma. The second Initiation Grade, normally costing 16 Karma with the same reduction of 40% would result in a Karma cost of 9 (16 - (6.4 rounded up to 7)). And so on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suppenhuhn]

erm there is no dodging (or whatever you call it) specialization for gymnastics.

[HentaiZonga]

As FrankTrollman and others have pointed out, the rules literally state that it is the reduction from Groups and Ordeals that is rounded up. As such, when a character Initiates for the first time with both a Group and an Ordeal, the normal cost of 13 Karma is reduced by 40% (round up), or 5.6 rounded to 6, for a final cost of 7 Karma. The second Initiation Grade, normally costing 16 Karma with the same reduction of 40% would result in a Karma cost of 9 (16 - (6.4 rounded up to 7)). And so on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ooooooooooh!

[HentaiZonga]

erm there is no dodging (or whatever you call it) specialization for gymnastics.

Right, which means it depends how you describe the action. I used the 'Tumbling' specialization, since it's the most likely one to be useful (come on - who *dances* out of the way of bullets?)

[samuelbeckett]

erm there is no dodging (or whatever you call it) specialization for gymnastics.

Maybe not, but there is a 'Tumbling' specialization, and as Gymnastics Dodge states you are tumbling, a lenient GM may allow it.

Most of the stuff in my 'Norris' post and HentaiZonga's posts could be regarded as borderline abuse of the RAW and would probably not fly with most GMs, but I thought the point of this thread was to point out 'optimized' characters who are potentially broken.

That said, I probably would allow the Tumbling specialization in my games, but would question some of the Gymnastics DP mods (i.e. Synthacardium, Neo-EPO etc.) - but strict interpretation of the RAW would seem to allow them.

[HentaiZonga]

Right, which means it depends how you describe the action. I used the 'Tumbling' specialization, since it's the most likely one to be useful (come on - who *dances* out of the way of bullets?) Although, what the player really wants is a 'Parkour' specialization. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)