Question: Big fistfuls of dice... how is it done?, a min/max question to give me scope Options

[Remjin]

Okay, so I was in another discussion where people were talking about uber-big fistfuls of dice for various skills. How is it done? In essence, how does someone in a game become "the best in the world" at something?

As an example.... Player A wants to be the Human Dirty Harry Physical Adept guy, and thus really really good with a revolver. As far as I can figure, his goal would be achieved with Max agility of 6, Aptitude for Pistols, Skill Rating 7 for Pistols, Specialization in Revolvers, Improved ability (3) with pistols, for a max of 18 dice, right? (6 + 7 + 2 + 3) Outside of increasing agility more, wouldn't that be the limit? Even with Agility 9, that would make it 21 dice total? (wow)

... and other builds of that nature would be interesting to see. This way, I'll know when someone's pushing the limits pretty hard, and give me a sense of scale from one end to the other.

[Naysayer]

Others on these boards here are far mor apt in the number-crunching, but as far as I know, you can still go for Exceptional Attribute (Agility) and Genetic Optimization, netting at least two more dice from the attribute side. I don't remember if a reflex recorder adds a bonus die or increases skill rating, if the former, there's another die for you. And I guess with a high edge you can spend some in combat to get exploding dice, reroll or somesuch, netting even more potential hits...

But yeah, if you go only by "raw skill", then once you got a 7 in pistols, there's not too much headroom. Of course, buying those 7 points also burns BPs like there's no tomorrow, usually leaving a character somewhat lacking in other areas, so I guess it kinda evens out...

[Stahlseele]

does he really WANT TO BE HUMAN, or just not look like an elf?
i've seen elf cyber builts with 12 in agility, and that was before augmentation i think . .

[Coldhand Jake]

Then there's smartlinking, recoil comp, and if you have a technomantic buddy, investing machine spirits in the smartlink... shades with all the camera toys, palmlink for the smartlink...

[Nkari]

well, for starters, you can increase your natural maximum atleast 2 times above its normal.. so ...


Elf.. 20BP in qualities for agi 8, 45k and 0.2 essence for agi 9(gen tech) (gives agi 13 augmented but you will only reach agi 11 atm) with muscle toner 4 bioware (0.8 essence and 32k cash), then you raise pistols to 6, 7 with aptitude +specialication, 13+7+2=22 dice so far..

Then we get magic 4 (pay for 5) cause of -1 essence..)to start with.. 1.5 power points into Improved Pistols then you add smartlink to that.. and you got 27 dice (22+3+2).. And 2.5 PP left.. enough for 1 init pass extra and Quickdraw

Ofc I have not chosen any alpha ware etc.. but you can pretty easy get 27 dice to roll with your gun adept.. but then again.. you sure as hell wont be doing much else than shooting.. and you got 2 PP left for 1 extra init pass.. I would allmost drop 2 dice from that and get me 2 extra init passes instead of 2 more dice.. =)

85 BP for agil, 10 bp for cash, 30 BP for Aptitude and the agi quality 34 BP for Pistols 7+spec, and 40 BP for magic.. so all in all you spent about 198 BP out of 400 for 27 dice and 2 init passes and Draw and shoot in one simple action.


And thats just on top of my head.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (not any more.. checked all the stuff.. )


EDIT: added the cost for pistols, and added aptitude and spec to the first calc for 20 dice to 22..

[Falconer]

Don't forget item attunement!

[Squinky]

Don't forget the restricted gear quality. Suddenly we don't have to stop at muscle toner 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Nkari]

Item attunement from wich book ??

I considered restricted gear but then we hit augmented maximum allready and we loose a whole magic point more meaning 10 BP more wasted.. its cheaper spending 1 PP for 1 agil (since you allready get 1 agil from 4 magic)..

[BRodda]

Okay, so I was in another discussion where people were talking about uber-big fistfuls of dice for various skills. How is it done? In essence, how does someone in a game become "the best in the world" at something?

As an example.... Player A wants to be the Human Dirty Harry Physical Adept guy, and thus really really good with a revolver. As far as I can figure, his goal would be achieved with Max agility of 6, Aptitude for Pistols, Skill Rating 7 for Pistols, Specialization in Revolvers, Improved ability (3) with pistols, for a max of 18 dice, right? (6 + 7 + 2 + 3) Outside of increasing agility more, wouldn't that be the limit? Even with Agility 9, that would make it 21 dice total? (wow)

... and other builds of that nature would be interesting to see. This way, I'll know when someone's pushing the limits pretty hard, and give me a sense of scale from one end to the other.

A quick note on Dirty Harry, he wasn't god with a gun. Dirty Harry was a face heavily specialized in intimidation. Give him a high Char, Guts, intimidation, and pistols 5 and you should be pretty close.

[DTFarstar]

Elf with Changeling Surge Class 2 for MEtagenic Improvement Agility, Exceptional Attribute agility, Genetic Optimization Agility for an agility of 10(15) plus 6 dice in pistols, + specialization + reflex recorder + 3 from Improved Ability = So, 27 dice off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other things.

Chris

[Tarantula]

I'm running a virus scan, so I'll see what I can do to simply make the maximum dice in agility that you can.

I'll see what I can do with chargen only, and then possible places for improvement.

Gonna go with karma, cause its just better.

Heres what I whipped up, and no, he isn't fully made, as its an intellectual exercise.

[ Spoiler ]

Dirty Harry

Elf 30bp
Qualities:
Pos:+70
Adept 10
Class 2 Surge 20
Metagenic Improvement (Agi) 20bp
Exceptional Attribute(Agi) 40

Neg: -70
Who cares?
and10bp of metagenic Negs

Attribues:
Bod: 1
Agi: 3 10(14) 147
Rea: 1
Str: 1
Cha: 3
Int: 1
Log: 1
Wil: 1
Essence: 5
Ini: 4
Mag: 1 6(5) 60

Powers: 5pp
Imp Ability Pistols 2 1pp
Imp Physical Attribute(Agi) 2 4pp

Skills:
Pistols 7 (Revolvers) 60

Gear: 45 karma Spent 112,500
Bioware:
Genetic Optimization: 0.2bio 45k
Muscle Toner 2 0.4bio 16k
Reflex Recorder (Pistols) 0.1bio 10k
Enhanced Artwinkulation 0.3bio 40k

Contacts 50
+Smartlink 500
+Flare Comp 50

Ruger Warhawk 250
Dmg:7P AP:-3 Mode:SA
+Internal Smartlink [1] 250
+Firing Selection Change (Small-SS to SA) [1] 300
+Personalized Grip [1] 100
+20 EX-EX rounds, 100

Basic dicepools are this:

Shooting with his revolver, 28 dice. And he can take aim for up to 3 simple actions and get 31 dice.

Attribute (14) + Skill (6) + Imp Ability (2) + Spec (2) + Smartlink (2) + Reflex Recorder (1) + Enhanced Twink (1) = 28. + Take Aim (3) = 31.

Areas for improvement: Upgrade either his muscle toner to level 3, or initiate twice and take another level in Imp Phys Agi to cap him out at 15. Initiate and spend 0.5pp on his last point of improved pistols. Depending on the GM, if he picked up the Aptitude quality he could squeeze raise pistols. Homeground could give a +2 bonus. Hawk eye for reducing range steps. So, with all of that... he'd absolutely cap out at:
Attributes (15) + Skill (7) + Imp Ability (3) + Spec (2) + Smartlink (2) + Reflex Recorder (1) + Enhanced Twink (1) + Home Ground (2) = for 33 dice total for regular shooting, and +3 for 36 dice when aimed. I think thats the absolute topout for this though.

Good catch on item atunement, that gives him a 1/2 initiate grade round up for his pistol.

Also, techno sprite diagnosticing the gun, and then some magic of analyze device for some more twinkage.

[Nkari]

Still no answer from where atunement comes from, wich book ppl ? ?=)

[DTFarstar]

Street Magic - it is a metamagic for adepts only.

Chris

[Nkari]

Aaaah thanks man.. =)

[Glyph]

As an example.... Player A wants to be the Human Dirty Harry Physical Adept guy, and thus really really good with a revolver. As far as I can figure, his goal would be achieved with Max agility of 6, Aptitude for Pistols, Skill Rating 7 for Pistols, Specialization in Revolvers, Improved ability (3) with pistols, for a max of 18 dice, right? (6 + 7 + 2 + 3) Outside of increasing agility more, wouldn't that be the limit? Even with Agility 9, that would make it 21 dice total? (wow)

Simply using the basic book, the optimal build would probably be Agility: 5 plus muscle toner: 2, Pistols: 6 with a specialization in Revolvers, the ambidexterity quality (not to fire both at once, but to fire one, then the other, to get around the Ruger Super Warhawk's single-shot rate of fire), a reflex recorder for pistols combined with improved ability/pistols: 2, and a smartlink. Since this adept has already lost a point of Essense, get some basic cybereyes and an ultrasound sensor for him. That's 20 dice, which is enough for most purposes while still leaving room for improvement and lots of build points to spend on other skills.

If you want to hard max, though, get aptitude/pistols and exceptional attribute/Agility, hard maxing Agility at 7 and raising pistols to a base skill of 7 as well. You now have 23 dice for pistols, although those last 3 points cost you 73 build points.

Augmentation introduces geneware that can increase your Agility maximum.

Street Magic introduces the attunement metamagic, which lets you bond with an item and treat it like an extension of your own body, giving you a dice pool bonus equal to half of your initiate grade. It doesn't work for items you are controlling through electronic interfaces, though, so you would probably not be able to use a smartlink with it.

Arsenal has lots of rules for modifying and designing guns.

Runner's Companion, I don't have yet, but they have a quality that lets you start out with higher-Availability gear (you could get muscle toner: 4 instead of muscle toner: 2).

And obviously you could get more dice if you decided to play something with better bonuses than a human, such as an elf or a changeling.

I kind of think the very first option would be best, though, if the player is really interested in playing Dirty Harry, rather than simply pumping up his pistols dice. Because Dirty Harry also had good unarmed combat, driving, and intimidation skills, as well as a high Edge, and other skills appropriate to a cop. So he would have more than the bare-bones skill allocation of a pistols hyper-specialist.

[Remjin]

Elf.. 20BP in qualities for agi 8, 30k and 0.6 essence for agi 9(gen tech) (gives agi 13 augmented but you will only reach agi 11 atm) with muscle toner 2 bioware (0.4 essence and 16k cash), then you raise pistols to 6, 11+7+2=20 dice so far..

Then we get magic 4 (pay for 5) cause of -1 essence..)to start with.. 1.5 power points into Improved Pistols then you sink 1 PP into (4 steps) of attribute boost agility.. (8 dice, you auto sux 2 times, = augmented agil 13) now you have 25 dice.. then add smartlink to that.. and you got 27 dice..

Ofc I have not chosen any alpha ware etc.. but you can pretty easy get 27 dice to roll with your gun adept.. but then again.. you sure as hell wont be doing much else than shooting.. and you got 2 PP left for 1 extra init pass.. I would allmost drop 2 dice from that and get me 2 extra init passes instead of 2 more dice.. =)

85 BP for agil, 10 bp for cash, 30 BP for Aptitude and the agi quality, and 40 BP for magic.. so all in all you spent about 165 BP out of 400 for
25 dice and 3 init passes or 27 dice and 2 init passes.. =)

And thats just on top of my head.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Holy crap...

A quick note on Dirty Harry, he wasn't god with a gun. Dirty Harry was a face heavily specialized in intimidation. Give him a high Char, Guts, intimidation, and pistols 5 and you should be pretty close.

I was just referring to the "most powerful handgun in the world" type, not the whole character... but thank you for taking that direction with it.

I'm running a virus scan, so I'll see what I can do to simply make the maximum dice in agility that you can.

I'll see what I can do with chargen only, and then possible places for improvement.

Gonna go with karma, cause its just better.

Heres what I whipped up, and no, he isn't fully made, as its an intellectual exercise.

[ Spoiler ]

Dirty Harry

Elf 30bp
Qualities:
Pos:+70
Adept 10
Class 2 Surge 20
Metagenic Improvement (Agi) 20bp
Exceptional Attribute(Agi) 40

Neg: -70
Who cares?
and10bp of metagenic Negs

Attribues:
Bod: 1
Agi: 3 10(14) 147
Rea: 1
Str: 1
Cha: 3
Int: 1
Log: 1
Wil: 1
Essence: 5
Ini: 4
Mag: 1 6(5) 60

Powers: 5pp
Imp Ability Pistols 2 1pp
Imp Physical Attribute(Agi) 2 4pp

Skills:
Pistols 7 (Revolvers) 60

Gear: 45 karma Spent 112,500
Bioware:
Genetic Optimization: 0.2bio 45k
Muscle Toner 2 0.4bio 16k
Reflex Recorder (Pistols) 0.1bio 10k
Enhanced Artwinkulation 0.3bio 40k

Contacts 50
+Smartlink 500
+Flare Comp 50

Ruger Warhawk 250
Dmg:7P AP:-3 Mode:SA
+Internal Smartlink [1] 250
+Firing Selection Change (Small-SS to SA) [1] 300
+Personalized Grip [1] 100
+20 EX-EX rounds, 100

Basic dicepools are this:

Shooting with his revolver, 28 dice. And he can take aim for up to 3 simple actions and get 31 dice.

Attribute (14) + Skill (6) + Imp Ability (2) + Spec (2) + Smartlink (2) + Reflex Recorder (1) + Enhanced Twink (1) = 28. + Take Aim (3) = 31.

Areas for improvement: Upgrade either his muscle toner to level 3, or initiate twice and take another level in Imp Phys Agi to cap him out at 15. Initiate and spend 0.5pp on his last point of improved pistols. Depending on the GM, if he picked up the Aptitude quality he could squeeze raise pistols. Homeground could give a +2 bonus. Hawk eye for reducing range steps. So, with all of that... he'd absolutely cap out at:
Attributes (15) + Skill (7) + Imp Ability (3) + Spec (2) + Smartlink (2) + Reflex Recorder (1) + Enhanced Twink (1) + Home Ground (2) = for 33 dice total for regular shooting, and +3 for 36 dice when aimed. I think thats the absolute topout for this though.

Good catch on item atunement, that gives him a 1/2 initiate grade round up for his pistol.

Also, techno sprite diagnosticing the gun, and then some magic of analyze device for some more twinkage.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) again... that's just sick... and here I was thinking the 10 + specialization was pretty over the top...

Thank you all for illuminating me on the sickness out there. Wow, that's crazy... I'm going to go count my blessings now that I've never had someone present me with a character like these...

[Stahlseele]

you ain't seen nuthing yet bub!
there's builds out there where the character gets over 40 dice, and that is well within ALL the rules too O.o

[Tarantula]

you ain't seen nuthing yet bub!
there's builds out there where the character gets over 40 dice, and that is well within ALL the rules too O.o

For something like pistols? No, you're full of it. (I exclude concepts like possession & channeling for progressively more powerful spirits to possess you to get impossible physical stats due to having a force upteenthousand spirit in you. Likewise, I also ignore one shot cyberzombies that redline their Agi 15 limbs to Agi 30.)

[Stahlseele]

no, for other things . . . climbing comes to mind, especially . . . 44 dice is with hardmaxing entirely possible, if i remember the ultimate mundane climber correctly, and if you softmax, it's still above 40 dice and you have some points left for other stuff still . . .
yeah, for shooting guns, you've pretty much hit the roof with 33 dice . .

[Delta56]

I'll just leave this here...

[ElFenrir]

Yeah, your biggest dice blocks are probably going to come from an ubertwinked social adept. You know, the whole nine with Charisma, Pheremones, Kinesics, etc.

Firearms is going to get the bigger bonus over melee, due to the extra dice one can get from machine sprites, smartlinks, etc. Weapon combat, if you utilize Reach and if I recall some kind of weapon customization, can get a bit more than Unarmed. Unarmed, if properly twinked, can still get up there through a similar way as Firearms(elf, crank Agility, Aptitude, etc.) Kick Attack can nail 1 more die for Reach, but basically you're sort of cut off there(though some martial arts give bonus dice for certain things-such as +1 die to Knockdown, etc.)

There was some weapon-based Parry monster around, as well-where instead of Agility, you utterly crank out Reaction(though giving plenty of Agility as well for attacking back), and with this and that they can roll sick amounts of dice to parry and then Riposte in return, getting a counterattack(counterstrike too can work here.) They might not roll as many on the counterattack as the offensive-based guy, but damned if you can ever hit them in melee.

On that note, I wonder what kind of Dodgemaster you could build. Again, go nuts on the Reaction, add the Reaction enhancers, etc, a suprathyroid, anything to get Reaction boosted up. Max out Gymnastics and get a Synthacardium 3-they're an Adept with some cyber, but still have around 4 magic points left to play with to get Improved Gymnastics, and then give them Satyr Legs for more Gymnastics boost, and in the end you basically have a bullet-dodging maniac.

Captain Perception can be rather interesting, as well. Through creative use of hard-maxing and twinking Intuition and all the other Aptitude stuff, Positive Qualities and Adept powers, there was a rather insane amount of dice thrown. Really, for just about any skill(especially non combat skills-they only cost Adepts .25 per die), you can get massive fistfuls of dice indeed.

[Glyph]

Melee has its weaknesses (namely, that most people will just shoot you), but people who are good at it dominate people who aren't good at it more convincingly.

If the guy rolling 20 dice for pistols runs into 8 guys rolling 6 dice (including smartlinks) for pistols, he could probably kill two of them each initiative pass, but is more likely to spend an action using full dodge to get to cover, and will likelier than not come out of the encounter with a wound or two.

If the guy rolling 18 dice for unarmed combat runs into 8 guys rolling 6 dice (including reach) for their clubs, he is likely to completely dominate them and not get hit once.

As far as the parry monster, the biggest thing for this concept is the two-weapon fighting style maneuver (with ambidexterity or off-hand training). It lets you use full defense at no cost in actions. For a typical adept with maxed-out skill, that's 9 or 10 extra dice! The other component to the parry monster is plenty of combat sense and a level of counterstrike, along with the riposte and finishing move maneuvers.

It's a tradeoff - you can either get the insane damage codes that are possible for unarmed combat now, or you can go the two-weapon route and get that insane defensive ability.

[Cain]

Thanks, Glyph... I just found a use for Shiva Arms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Thank you all for illuminating me on the sickness out there. Wow, that's crazy... I'm going to go count my blessings now that I've never had someone present me with a character like these...

Oh, some of these concepts are positively *sane* in comparison to what you can do. You've probably heard of the pornomancer, the uber-twinked social adept with over 30 dice for Seduction attempts. And that's without some of the new social abilities; I think I could probably push it to 35 dice, and I'd believe it if someone claimed they could do 40.

Running a game for these guys is a bit challenging, but not impossible. You are going to have to accept a certain amount of power creep, but it can be held down. What causes a problem is when things go from power creep to an arms race between the players and GM. If you can avoid that, the game can be a lot of fun, even at the insane power levels.

I was actually toying with a concept, but have discarded it as too game-breaking. A social adept with Commanding voice, and huge bonuses to the Leadership skill. To oppose Commanding Voice, you have to make a Leadership check; since most people don't have the Leadership skill, they'd be rolling Willpower -1. That not only means you'll succeed; you're likely to score routine *critical* successes, which is enough to dictate the result. (Yes, I know the book says "GM discretion". The book also says critical successes get to make up their own results, and making people obey the command is within reason.)

I would never actually bring this character into a game, because he'd ruin combats by telling the other guys to throw away their weapons. When the enemies come to their senses, they're now unarmed and facing down armed opposition who's got them in their sights. It wouldn't be much fun for anyone else, because combat would only last until I used Commanding Voice.

Playing with a maxed-out character can be fun, but remember: Use your powers for good, and not evil!

[Remjin]

you ain't seen nuthing yet bub!
there's builds out there where the character gets over 40 dice, and that is well within ALL the rules too O.o

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) *sigh* Again, I'm glad I don't have these players...

I'll just leave this here...

I also play Hero System, which also uses a lot of d6s... between the two games, I tend to have a few. =)

For all those who illuminated me on the social/pornomancer/skill ubers, I also thank you. This gives me perspective, and mostly tells me that our little bit of tweaking is nothing compared to the outer reaches, and that totally maxed out skills in these methods are just as sick and bring up some very odd possibilities. Frankly, most of the stuff you guys were doing made my eyes glaze over a bit, but I focused and understood what you were presenting. Thanks so much, everyone. It seems my power/min/max perspective is just completely not in this league. =)

As a whole, from what I've seen on how this is all done, I wouldn't allow most of the characters presented in most cases. Though, looking at those builds, I see where any decent GM could make any given uber-skill character suffer greatly. I'll present this information to my buddy. Its way out of our normal scope, so what we planned is surely not nearly as bad, and it seems that our thoughts are just fine compared to all that other tweaking.

[Glyph]

Damn, I really need to get Runner's Companion. Stubbornly waiting for the hardcopy version, though.

The last incarnation of the pornomancer had 36 dice (although many of them were very conditional mods such as home ground, etc.), so adding empathy software: 6 would make it 42 dice, and SURGE can, I think, boost Charisma as well, without affecting the number of Qualities cap.

As for commanding voice, Hyzmarca actually put together a "leadermancer"-type character. As effective as the pornomancer, but less likely to get STD's! Watch out for catching the awakened version of laryngitis, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)