Question: Big fistfuls of dice... how is it done?, a min/max question to give me scope Options

[Remjin]

Good post, Cain. I agree. =) Sometimes the Hopeless player just needs someone to hold his/her hand for a bit. There are a lot of people who just have trouble initiating something. If they're just entirely not into learning rules at all and actively work to not know them, then recommend they find a group that plays diceless narrative games or something. =) At various points, we've taught many who started as "hopeless" into becoming at least competent in the game.

In our group, we have one person who doesn't give a crap about the rules. She knows they are used and will learn how to use them to accomplish her goals and otherwise, but forget about character creation. She just has very little interest in going through all the number crunching for that, so her hubby does that part for her. Unlike "the Hopeless," however, she knows how to play the game, its just the character creation part that puts her off.

[Glyph]

I guess I haven't really considered the "spotlight time" of critical successes, because it hasn't really come up in the games that I have played. Maybe it's partly because they have mostly been PBP games, but generally, when player actions get described in detail, it is a player decision, and most GMs don't seem to mind it.

If someone wants to describe how their samurai's old wound twitches, spoiling his aim right when he has that bastard lined up in his crosshairs, then they will do it, while someone who doesn't care could drop someone with 5 spare successes and not say much beyond "Yeah, wasted that punk!" It seems like spotlight time can depend a lot more on the player than on the character's stats.

[Cain]

Good post, Cain. I agree. =) Sometimes the Hopeless player just needs someone to hold his/her hand for a bit. There are a lot of people who just have trouble initiating something. If they're just entirely not into learning rules at all and actively work to not know them, then recommend they find a group that plays diceless narrative games or something. =) At various points, we've taught many who started as "hopeless" into becoming at least competent in the game.

In our group, we have one person who doesn't give a crap about the rules. She knows they are used and will learn how to use them to accomplish her goals and otherwise, but forget about character creation. She just has very little interest in going through all the number crunching for that, so her hubby does that part for her. Unlike "the Hopeless," however, she knows how to play the game, its just the character creation part that puts her off.

That's good. The Hopeless can be fixed, as can most problem players. You're right that mostly "holding their hand" is enough, although there are a few who can't be fixed so easily. Once they discover the rules allow them to do interesting things, they can really come into their own.

I guess I haven't really considered the "spotlight time" of critical successes, because it hasn't really come up in the games that I have played. Maybe it's partly because they have mostly been PBP games, but generally, when player actions get described in detail, it is a player decision, and most GMs don't seem to mind it.

If someone wants to describe how their samurai's old wound twitches, spoiling his aim right when he has that bastard lined up in his crosshairs, then they will do it, while someone who doesn't care could drop someone with 5 spare successes and not say much beyond "Yeah, wasted that punk!" It seems like spotlight time can depend a lot more on the player than on the character's stats.

The "spotlight time" of critical successes isn't a major issue, in and of itself. SR4 does make the problem worse, by making it into a player-directed "cool factor", instead of a GM-directed one, like just about everything else in the game. This problem is unique to SR4: I know of many narrative games, and classic games that have narrative bits; but as far as I know, SR4 is the only one that only gives the players narrative control when they roll a crit.

In most tabletop games, at least the ones I've been in, there's a certain amount of high-fiving, back-slapping, congratulations when a well-timed crit is rolled. So, just rolling more crits means you get more accolades. PbP games are different-- they require more player-centered narrative control in order to function. Technically speaking, in a traditional game like SR4, the player can't even narrate in a detail like an NPC raising his eyebrows. In PBP, you add those sort of details all the time.

But the real issue is when people get spotlight time of unequal quality. Using the two examples I posted above, imagine what happened is Player A got the first scenario, and Player B got the second. Technically speaking, both of them got the same *amount* of spotlight time, but they didn't get the same quality. I think that's an important issue, too.

Edit: Someone raised this point in another thread. If one character is min/maxed to hell and back, everyone else becomes strongly motivated to do the same. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as everyone understands and accepts the ramifications of the change. The problem is that when some players get left behind-- they're still effective, but they're not as effective as the big boys. They feel like they're just squeaking by, while the other guys have the skills and abilities to deal with dragons. They'll ask themselves (not unrealistically) that if the other guys are throwing 20-30 dice for their skills, why am I with them, when I'm only throwing 10-12. The sort of challenges that are right for 20+ dice characters should be absolutely brutal in other areas as well. If the GM holds back the challenges in this area, the players will notice. So, the other guy gets great and cinematic combat against powerful villains, while the decker gets the same old IC he's been fighting off all this time.

[Nkari]

Word of advice.. never ever ever ever ever buy rulebooks in a translated versions, the rules allways gets skewered by translations. Allways buy them in the native language.. (and english is really easy to learn so even if your pretty crap at english, buy the english books and become better at english thanks to them.. =) )

And yeah group balance is quite important.. the group should throw about the same amount of dice at the same actions more or less a 3 dice diffrance is no biggie.. 10+ is.. hence I cap my players at 12 dice at creation for this up and coming Denver missions run.. many will pop to 14-15 dice after the first session wich I am ok with Im just making sure that they are somewhat wide in their skills.. (I hate one trick ponys.. I can live with 1.5 or 2 trick ponys.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

[Cain]

Word of advice.. never ever ever ever ever buy rulebooks in a translated versions, the rules allways gets skewered by translations. Allways buy them in the native language.. (and english is really easy to learn so even if your pretty crap at english, buy the english books and become better at english thanks to them.. =) )

And yeah group balance is quite important.. the group should throw about the same amount of dice at the same actions more or less a 3 dice diffrance is no biggie.. 10+ is.. hence I cap my players at 12 dice at creation for this up and coming Denver missions run.. many will pop to 14-15 dice after the first session wich I am ok with Im just making sure that they are somewhat wide in their skills.. (I hate one trick ponys.. I can live with 1.5 or 2 trick ponys.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

Personally, I like my pools a bit higher than that, but that's just a personal preference. YMMV.

I do suggest that you raise the pool size to 15 for combat and social pools, though. Those two are subject to the most modifiers, and are generally opposed tests. They're more likely to get shrunk down to the 10-12 range, if you're using all the modifiers.

[FlashbackJon]

Sometimes I worry about being the only "optimizer" in my group. To be fair, we have a bunch of new "Hopeless" in our group, but even my long-time SR buddies struggle to get 8 to 10 dice even in a particular character's specialty. They prefer to have a wide variety of skills in the 1-3 range.

Yikes.

[psychophipps]

My group does big fistfuls of dice by limiting non-resistant dice pools to a max of 20. We figure that an average hits ratio of 6.66 is quite sufficient, thanks.

[Rasumichin]

Word of advice.. never ever ever ever ever buy rulebooks in a translated versions, the rules allways gets skewered by translations. Allways buy them in the native language.. (and english is really easy to learn so even if your pretty crap at english, buy the english books and become better at english thanks to them.. =) )

Yeah, i'll stick to that in the future.
If the store would have had the English version available, i'd have gone for that anyway.
Maybe i'll get myself the PDF version of the BBB?

Sometimes I worry about being the only "optimizer" in my group. To be fair, we have a bunch of new "Hopeless" in our group, but even my long-time SR buddies struggle to get 8 to 10 dice even in a particular character's specialty. They prefer to have a wide variety of skills in the 1-3 range.

Yikes.

As you said, yikes.
That's...just plain wrong.
They are even worse than some of the archetypes...

[Cain]

Sometimes I worry about being the only "optimizer" in my group. To be fair, we have a bunch of new "Hopeless" in our group, but even my long-time SR buddies struggle to get 8 to 10 dice even in a particular character's specialty. They prefer to have a wide variety of skills in the 1-3 range.

Yikes.

Yikes is right!

Tell them if that's what they want, just buy skills at 1 and take a specialization. For example, Demolitions: Disarming is just as effective as Demolitions 3, so long as you're not planning on blowing anything up. (And with Demolitions at only 3, they really shouldn't be playing with explosives! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[Shiloh]

(And with Demolitions at only 3, they really shouldn't be playing with explosives! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

A bit harsh, that. Professionals have skill 3...

[cryptoknight]

Damn, I really need to get Runner's Companion. Stubbornly waiting for the hardcopy version, though.

The last incarnation of the pornomancer had 36 dice (although many of them were very conditional mods such as home ground, etc.), so adding empathy software: 6 would make it 42 dice, and SURGE can, I think, boost Charisma as well, without affecting the number of Qualities cap.

As for commanding voice, Hyzmarca actually put together a "leadermancer"-type character. As effective as the pornomancer, but less likely to get STD's! Watch out for catching the awakened version of laryngitis, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wow I thought I did good with 31 dice... for a missions game...

Dryad Adept with soft maxed CHA, Influence skill group 4, Kinesthetics 3, Improved Ability Negotiations 3, lvl 6 emotitoy, first impression, and something else I forget... When I got the NERPS card that gave +2 to a single social situation... I was in heaven...

Then I spent edge on a negotiation test to re-roll my non-hits... and ummm yah... 17 net hits on a negotiation test.

[Gamble]

Thanks, Glyph... I just found a use for Shiva Arms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)


Oh, some of these concepts are positively *sane* in comparison to what you can do. You've probably heard of the pornomancer, the uber-twinked social adept with over 30 dice for Seduction attempts. And that's without some of the new social abilities; I think I could probably push it to 35 dice, and I'd believe it if someone claimed they could do 40.

Running a game for these guys is a bit challenging, but not impossible. You are going to have to accept a certain amount of power creep, but it can be held down. What causes a problem is when things go from power creep to an arms race between the players and GM. If you can avoid that, the game can be a lot of fun, even at the insane power levels.

I was actually toying with a concept, but have discarded it as too game-breaking. A social adept with Commanding voice, and huge bonuses to the Leadership skill. To oppose Commanding Voice, you have to make a Leadership check; since most people don't have the Leadership skill, they'd be rolling Willpower -1. That not only means you'll succeed; you're likely to score routine *critical* successes, which is enough to dictate the result. (Yes, I know the book says "GM discretion". The book also says critical successes get to make up their own results, and making people obey the command is within reason.)

I would never actually bring this character into a game, because he'd ruin combats by telling the other guys to throw away their weapons. When the enemies come to their senses, they're now unarmed and facing down armed opposition who's got them in their sights. It wouldn't be much fun for anyone else, because combat would only last until I used Commanding Voice.

Playing with a maxed-out character can be fun, but remember: Use your powers for good, and not evil!

I'm actually curious as to what kind of dice you can squeeze out with your Social Adept.

[Glyph]

I'm actually curious as to what kind of dice you can squeeze out with your Social Adept.

Well, here's the pornomancer. Keep in mind that I don't have Runner's Companion yet - I'm sure there are a few tweaks that I could use from there once I get it.

[ Spoiler ]

Elf with 8 Charisma and 6 Magic. Qualities: Adept, Aptitude/Con, First Impression, Home Ground. Get Con at 7 and specialize in Seduction. For adept powers, get Kinesics: 5 and Improved Ability/Con: 3. For bioware, get Tailored Pheromones: 3, Enhanced Pheromone Receptors: 3, Vocal Range Enhancer, and minor Biosculpting. That's 8 (Charisma) + 7 (Con) + 2 (specialization) +2 (Home Ground) +2 (First Impression) +5 (Kinesics) + 3 (Improved Ability) +3 (Tailored Pheromes) +2 (Enhanced Pherome Receptors) +1 (Vocal Range Enhancer) +2 (Minor Biosculpting) +6 (Empathy Software) = 42 dice.

Pornomancer
Race: Elven

BREAKDOWN (400 Points)
Core Attributes: 155
Special Attributes: 105
Race: 30
Active Skills: 90
Qualities: +5
Contacts: 6
Resources: 19

=Attributes=
Body: 3
Agility: 3
Reaction: 3
Strength: 1
Charisma: 8
Intuition: 2
Logic: 2
Willpower: 3
Magic: 6(5)
Edge: 5

Essence: 5.2

=Qualities=
Adept
Aptitude/Con
First Impression
Home Ground
---------------
Allergy/Silver, Moderate
Low Pain Tolerance
Sensitive System

=Active Skills=
Con/Seduction: 7/+2
Gymnastics/Dance: 4/+2
Etiquette: 2
Negotiation: 3
Perception: 2
Pistols/Semi-Automatic: 2/+2

=Knowledge Skills=
English: N
Sperethiel: 4
--------------
Acting: 4
Local Area Knowledge: 4
Street crime/Vice: 2/+2

=Bioware=
Biosculpting, Minor (2,000 Nuyen)
Enhanced Pherome Receptors: 3
Tailored Pheromes: 3
Vocal Range Enhancer

=Adept Abilities=
Cool Resolve: 5
Enthralling Performance/Dance
Improved Ability/Con: 3
Kinesics: 5

=Contacts=
Fixer (4 Connection/2 Loyalty)

=Lifestyle and Gear=
Micro-sensor with camera, skinlink, and empathy software (Rating: 6)
17,850 Nuyen left to spend on Lifestyles and Gear.

[Rasumichin]

Well, with RC, you could turn the character into a dryad instead of an elf, thereby gaining the Glamour quality, which would add 3 more dice.
You'd pay 15 BP more for race, though.

As far as qualities are concerned, you could change Home Ground to Fame (National), giving you +4 on social tests at the same BP cost or, for 5 BP more, choose Fame (Global) for +6 dice.

So in case you could live with the character immediately being recognized by everyone who owns a trid and could squeeze 20 more points out of the build without compromising anything adding to the core competencies, that would be 49 dice for seduction.

At chargen.

Getting even more becomes difficult, as we are at the limit for qualities by now.
We have enough Essence to afford Genetic Optimization (Charisma), we could raise CHA to 9, breaking the magic 50 dice limit.
This would cost 10 BP for the additional CHA point and 45.000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) /9 BP for the treatment.

We could also get one more point by using CHA-enhancing drugs like eX.

So, we have to squeeze out another 39 points (which is certainly possible, although slightly crippling...but hey, who cares?), but we'd go to town with 51 dice for seduction.
I guess that's the new record.

I'm wondering...can we get one more die out of biosculpting?
That's possible, isn't it?

And it's a starting character...oh my, i'm beginning to feel a bit dizzy.
I should probably get some sleep now... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Glyph]

Biosculpting normally can give a +2 dice modifier, but in one of the optional rules, it can add up to +3 Charisma.

Of course, while this character doesn't have any huge, glaring weaknesses, it is still more of a "how many dice can I get" exercise than a true character build.

If I was playing it as a character, I would probably make some drastic changes. I would soft-max Charisma, lose the Home Ground quality and maybe even the Aptitude, ditch the enhanced pheromone receptors (they can be as big of a disadvantage as an advantage), ditch the empathy software as being too cheesy (unless it was a campaign where everyone else was using it), get the Influence skill group instead of those individual skills, change improved ability/con: 3 to improved ability/leadership: 2 and commanding voice, and replace cool resolve: 5 with eidetic sense memory, multi-tasking, and sustenance (mainly because I like those powers, and think they are cool). Then I would use the points I saved to raise a few Attributes and get/raise a few skills.

But even then, the character would be rolling Charisma: 7 + Influence Group: 4 + Tailored Pheromones: 3 + Vocal Range Enhancer (+1) + Kinesics: 5 for 20 dice, with 4 more in potential modifiers from First Impression and biosculpting. So even when you don't set out to work the system as much as you can, you can still end up with big dice pools.

[Medicineman]

Hello Everybody(Hello Rasumichin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )
I'm one of many "Read-Only Germans" 'cause i'm mainly in German....(Whats the Plural of Forum ?)
But my question ist the following :
How can you combine the Elf Social Adept with a Gun-Adept(or Knifethrower Adept) to get "the best of two Worlds" ?
I might be Inclined to work one out
I was thinking about a Female Elf Adept with 420 BP(thats the Standard in my Group)

I'm not so much into making the most Dice but creating an interesting and still(more than)able Adept
If someone here could give me an Idea or two that would be great (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Rasumichin]

How can you combine the Elf Social Adept with a Gun-Adept(or Knifethrower Adept) to get "the best of two Worlds" ?
I might be Inclined to work one out
I was thinking about a Female Elf Adept with 420 BP(thats the Standard in my Group)

I'm not so much into making the most Dice but creating an interesting and still(more than)able Adept
If someone here could give me an Idea or two that would be great (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

First of all, welcome Medizinmann.
Good to see you on these forums.

As far as your build is concerned, being an elf may indeed be the optimal choice, as you get enhanced stats in the build's two key areas.
All hardmaxing of attributes should be avoided, as well as specializations at the start of game.
Picking one of the two areas as the main focus and the other one as a secondary aspect to be developed later could als be worth considering.
I'd recommend evaluating the gear, adept powers and qualities in the build posted above- it gives a good overview about the more efficient ways to boost Charisma-related skills.
I'd personally go for First Impression, Tailored Pheromones and Kinesics (and, of course, Emotitoys if they're allowed in your game) and avoid boosts that also entail downsides, such as Glamour, Enhanced Pheromone Receptors/Vomeronasal Organ and especially Fame, even though all of them certainly can be fun.
I'd avoid putting too many points directly into Charisma, too- many other methods are cheaper and create the same effects for our purposes.

One could also consider not becoming an adept, but sticking to ware- i generally prefer the mundane approach for hybrids, unless i see a very strong possibility for synergistic effects (CHA-based secondary caster/face, for example, or Hedge Witch ork tank/summoner).

If you want to go for combat efficiency, the obvious choice for bioware -muscle toner, synaptic booster, syntharcadium- will most likely drive your Essence loss over 1 point.
However, an adept with a modified Magic rating of 3 isn't that bad.
Easy to buy that up again later.

Other possibilities :
There's a whole bunch of -often negative- qualities that have made it surprisingly easy to take the "bad cop" side in social situations in spite of low charisma.
With nasty vibe and certain negative SURGE qualities, the Semper paratis code of conduct and a customized gun, even the most uncharismatic sam can become rather efficient at scaring the shit out of people.

If you use karmagen instead of the 420 BP, you could also easily go the full freak route and be a voodoo pirate nereid (dryad/seal shapeshifter), using guardian spirits for combat purposes.
Just think of the AGI you could get...well, i'm digressing, i think.

[Glyph]

Here's the latest incarnation of the pornomancer, now that I have Runner's Companion. I used some of Rasumichin's suggestions, although with global fame, this would only be a feasible character for some kind of quasi-legit runner campaign (working for the Draco Institute, etc.). Mainly, this is an evil laugh at everyone who thinks that the karmagen system leads to more balanced characters... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[ Spoiler ]

Dryad with 8 Charisma and 6 Magic. Relevant Qualities: Adept, Addiction: eX, Mild, Fame (Global), First Impression. Get Con at 6 and specialize in Seduction. For adept powers, get Kinesics: 5 and Improved Ability/Con: 3. For bioware, get Tailored Pheromes: 3, Enhanced Pherome Receptors: 3, Vocal Range Enhancer, and minor Biosculpting.

That's 8 (Charisma) + 6 (Con) + 2 (specialization) +3 (Glamour) +6 (Global Fame) +2 (First Impression) +5 (Kinesics) + 3 (Improved Ability) +3 (Tailored Pheromes) +2 (Enhanced Pherome Receptors) +1 (Vocal Range Enhancer) +2 (Minor Biosculpting) +6 (Empathy Software) +1 (symbiosis gives bonus to social skills vs. inhabitants of her neighborhood) +1 (effects of eX) = 51 dice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)


Pornomancer
Race: Dryad

BREAKDOWN (750 Karma)
Core Attributes: 276
Special Attributes: 112
Race: 0
Active Skills: 249
Knowledge Skills: 55
Qualities: Balanced
Contacts: 12
Resources: 46

=Attributes=
Body: 4
Agility: 6
Reaction: 4
Strength: 2
Charisma: 8
Intuition: 3
Logic: 3
Willpower: 5
Magic: 6(5)
Edge: 5

Essence: 5.2

=Qualities=
Adept
Bilingual
Fame/Global
First Impression
---------------
Addiction - eX, Mild
Day Job (10)
Sensitive System
SINner (5)

=Active Skills=
Artisan/Singing: 4/+2
Con/Seduction: 6/+2
Gymnastics/Dance: 4/+2
Etiquette/Media: 4/+2
Intimidation/Mental: 4/+2
Leadership/Morale: 4/+2
Negotiation/Bargaining: 4/+2
Perception: 3
Pistols/Semi-Automatic: 2/+2
Stealth Skill Group: 3

=Knowledge Skills=
English: N
Sperethiel: N
--------------
Acting: 4
Local Area Knowledge: 6
Seattle Entertainment Industry: 4
Seattle Night Life: 4

=Bioware=
Biosculpting, Minor (2,000 Nuyen)
Enhanced Pherome Receptors: 3
Tailored Pheromes: 3
Vocal Range Enhancer

=Adept Abilities=
Cool Resolve: 5
Enthralling Performance/Dance
Improved Ability/Con: 3
Kinesics: 5

=Contacts=
Fixer (4 Connection/2 Loyalty)

=Lifestyle and Gear=
Micro-sensor with camera, skinlink, and empathy software (Rating: 6)
37,850 Nuyen left to spend on Lifestyle and Gear.

[Medicineman]

One very peculiar,interesting,but also terrifiyng thought crossed my Mind and doesn't want to leave:
what if she isn't just an Elfen Adept but also a Shapeshifter ? (Eagle f.e.) at First I Thought what she would be like as a Banshee,but thats not so "interesting" anymore
Bioware is Possible (afaik) So, how would she be most eficient if I'd included the Aspect of putting 1 Essencepoint of Bioware and making her an Eagle (or other Shapeshifter)-Adept(or Mage-Adept ?).I would surely be making her with 750 Karma.I'd be needing Initiation & Masking for sure,what else ?

with peculiar,terrifiying but also interesting Dance
Medicineman

[Glyph]

Shapeshifter 'ware has to be deltaware, or it is lost (causing damage, and the Essense is not regained) when they shapeshift. So not a good idea for this particular concept.

750 Karma will get you a lot more than 420 Build Points will, though, so if that is one of the character creation options your GM has made available for you, it's definitely the one to pick.

[Medicineman]

Shapeshifter 'ware has to be deltaware, or it is lost (causing damage, and the Essense is not regained) when they shapeshift. So not a good idea for this particular concept.

750 Karma will get you a lot more than 420 Build Points will, though, so if that is one of the character creation options your GM has made available for you, it's definitely the one to pick.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
I Thought only Delta Cyberware
i never played a Shapeshifter before,so my Informations are not quite accurate.
750 Karma will get you a lot more than 420 Build Points will
I know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
I want to build the Char with either 420 BP or 750 Karma.Or maybe both,than I'll present them to my Gamemaster and let him decide.
with 420 BP I could be making a good Adept,but i'll doubt a good Shapeshifter,or ?!?

with a dance never danced before
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

RC Page 85 says:
Sapient critters can only accept deltaware bioware and
cyberware implants, and even all replacement limbs and organs
must be cultured (see Transplants and Organ Replacements, p.126,
SR4) from the character’s own cells. Sapient critters can accept
geneware and nanoware without difficulty

but directly below this paragraph, there is:

optional rule: chrome critters
At their discretion, the gamemaster may allow
sapient critter characters to accept a non-deltaware
implant appropriate for its body type, but for purposes
of Essence cost, such implants are treated
effectively as second-hand cyberware or bioware
(see p. 32 and 61, Augmentation) instead of their
normal grade.

by the way, welcome over here and the correct plural of forum is simply forums

[Glyph]

Yes, but the part that I was referring to was the description of the shift power (on page 85) - if you allow a shapeshifter to get non-deltaware implants, they will still lose them as soon as they shift to metahuman form.

[Neraph]

Back to the topic at hand, I was able to get 42 exploding dice for an attack with an Adept, but that was with a melee weapon (f6 weapon focus). So if we drop that focus off, that's still about 36 exploding dice. I'll have to dig out my notes and show you...